369 réponses à ce sujet

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

To clarify, I haven't been arguing over the morality of Anders' actions per se, but whether he deserves to die for them. Which I don't believe.

I don't think he deserves to die for them either. His mind is to a large degree not his own. Whether or not Friendship v. Rivalry has any effect (I couldn't tell you) he still tries to off Ella for an offense that in no way justifies it. That is in no way something that Awakening Anders (or Awakening Justice, for that matter) would do. The difference between our views is that I don't view whether or not he deserves it as the same question as whether or not he needs to die.

[Xilizhra]

I don't think he deserves to die for them either. His mind is to a large degree not his own; whether or not Friendship v. Rivalry has any effect (I couldn't tell you) he still tries to off Ella for an offense that in no way justifies it. I just don't view whether or not he deserves it as the same question as whether or not he needs to die.

And I would say he decidedly doesn't need to either.

[Steelcan]

He's gone from having a spirit within him like Wynne into an abomination

 

*sharpens murder knife*

[Sir DeLoria]

Anders changed from Awakening...

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Unless you are biased against mages what Anders did cannot be branded as 'evil' or 'wrong'. I'm not question the act itself but Anders himself.

 

What? Of course it can. Even all the mages in Kirkwall themselves think so. The reason being that he was specifically trying to provoke an annulment so the templars would try to kill them. That's specifically trying to cause the same ethnic cleansing you railed against.

 

And even if that wasn't so, his goal isn't necessarily a worthwhile endeavor. A world without templars could be much more dangerous than the one he wanted to tear down.To say nothing of who he harmed to get to it.

 

And even if supporting the Circle System was inherently anti mage (it isn't), his decision to specifically kill innocent people so the templars will kill more innocent people so that a war where even more innocent people will be killed can and will still be branded as disgusting and deplorable. He probably created a much greater evil than the Circle was.

[Ryzaki]

I told someone at school that I was arguing about whether blowing up churches was evil, and she just said "What is there to even... is this about Anders?"

 

lmfao

[lil yonce]

What? Of course it can. Even all the mages in Kirkwall themselves think so. The reason being that he was specifically trying to provoke an annulment so the templars would try to kill them. That's specifically trying to cause the same ethnic cleansing you railed against.

 

And even if that wasn't so, his goal isn't necessarily a worthwhile endeavor. A world without templars could be much more dangerous than the one he wanted to tear down.To say nothing of who he harmed to get to it.

 

And even if supporting the Circle System was inherently anti mage (it isn't), his decision to specifically kill innocent people so the templars will kill more innocent people so that a war where even more innocent people will be killed can and will still be branded as disgusting and deplorable. He probably created a much greater evil than the Circle was.

The only people we see in the Chantry that night are templars and Elthina, and they can hardly be called innocent because they're part of the institution that oppresses mages. And the templars decided to purge the circle, Anders thought they would, but they took the action to do so, the blame for the circle's annulment is theirs. I mean, they could have decided simply to punish Anders for blowing up the chantry and conduct an investigation of the tower with Orsino's help to eliminate blood mages, but they didn't. Its kind of like saying someone provokes their own beating, and they don't. Somone has to make the choice to beat them, take the action. I don't think its fair to blame Anders for what the templars did. That they did what he thought they would do proves him right about how awful the order and circle is, how it shouldn't be tolerated by mages.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

The only people we see in the Chantry that night are templars and Elthina, and they can hardly be called innocent because they're part of an institution that oppresses mages. And the templars decided to purge the circle, Anders thought they would, but they took the action to do so, the blame for the circle's annulment is theirs. I mean, they could have decided simply to punish Anders for blowing up the chantry and conduct an investigation of the tower with Orsino's help to eliminate blood mages, but they didn't. Its kind of like saying someone provokes their own beating, and they don't. Somone has to make the choice to beat them, take the action. I don't think its fair to blame Anders for what the templars did. That they did what he thought they would do proves him right about how awful the order and circle is, how it shouldn't be tolerated by mages.

I think you're understating the extent to which Anders is guilty of the Annulment. He didn't think she'd do it, he knew she would, because he knew she'd been trying but that Elthina had the authority to stop her. He also knew that she would have the authority to do so if he got everyone in sight that could say her nay. And this wasn't a potential consequence or a risk he had to take: his plan revolved around her doing this and the rest of the Circles revolting due to the fact that the Annulment was being misused. You can't say that Anders isn't to blame for the deaths of the mages in Kirkwall Circle because he didn't kill them himself. Not when he took actions to carry out a plan he knew would kill them and which depended on their deaths. None of this is to absolve Meredith, of course; guilt is not a zero-sum game.

 

I also think too much is being made of the fact that we don't see more than seven or so people in the Chantry before it explodes. Not seeing something in-game isn't evidence of it not being there.

[lil yonce]

I think you're understating the extent to which Anders is guilty of the Annulment. He didn't think she'd do it, he knew she would, because he knew she'd been trying but that Elthina had the authority to stop her. He also knew that she would have the authority to do so if he got everyone in sight that could say her nay. And this wasn't a potential consequence or a risk he had to take: his plan revolved around her doing this and the rest of the Circles revolting due to the fact that the Annulment was being misused. You can't say that Anders isn't to blame for the deaths of the mages in Kirkwall Circle because he didn't kill them himself. Not when he took actions to carry out a plan he knew would kill them and which depended on their deaths. None of this is to absolve Meredith, of course; guilt is not a zero-sum game.

I mean, he didn't have a crystal ball, he isn't a fortune teller, he didn't know Meredith would annul the circle, he thought she would, had a very good idea that she would, and she proved him right. She chose to annul the circle, she did not have to. And why blame Anders, for things he "knew" rather than blame the templars for things they did. It makes no sense to me. Anders is only responsible for the deaths in the Chantry and the deaths of those hit by debris. He certainly is not responsible for the deaths of the mages in the circle. The templars are.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I mean, he didn't have a crystal ball, he isn't a fortune teller, he didn't know Meredith would annul the circle, he thought she would, had a very good idea that she would, and she proved him right. She chose to annul the circle, she did not have to. And why blame Anders, for things he "knew" rather than blame the templars for things they did. It makes no sense to me. Anders is only responsible for the deaths in the Chantry and the deaths of those hit by debris. He certainly is not responsible for the deaths of the mages in the circle. The templars are.

I don't think you really grasped my objection to your post. The last sentence was "None of this is to absolve Meredith, of course; guilt is not a zero-sum game." I'm not saying that Meredith isn't worthy of blame. I'm saying that Anders is.

[WarriorOfLight999]

Stepping away from what is canon for a second, realistically, the destruction of the Chantry/murder of the Grand Cleric would not have started a revolution in and of itself. At least, that's how I see it. What I see instead, is an individual whose possession has warped their personality to the point that I don't even recognize Anders from Awakening anymore. I absolutely hate what they've done to Anders. He used to be a laid back rebel that I enjoyed company with. Now, he's a murderer, and a danger to himself, as well as others.

 

I have to kill him, not just for the sake of avenging the mages he has now placed in harms way, along with those caught in the blast, but to free him. He pays for his crime, and Vengeance is sent back to the Fade, for now.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Stepping away from what is canon for a second, realistically, the destruction of the Chantry/murder of the Grand Cleric would not have started a revolution in and of itself. At least, that's how I see it.

To be fair to the writers, the destruction of the Chantry and murder of Elthina doesn't do it in and of itself. There's some steps you're not taking into account there. As per the way things are represented in Dragon Age 2:

 

Step One:   Anders does what he does.

Step Two:   Meredith reacts by Annuling the Circle, as per Anders' plan.

Step Three: The Circles that still exist realize that their members' lives aren't worth anything to the Templars, and that even if they're innocent they can still die. They unite and revolt.

 

And even that's oversimplified, if I properly understand Asunder. At any rate, it's a bit of a gamble, especially since from what I remember of that scene on Youtube Anders goes in pretty convinced he's selling his life for the chance that this will happen the way he hopes, but it's not even close to the worst plan that has ever worked in the realm of fiction.

[Revan Reborn]

Anders is actually one of the most courageous characters you encounter in the Dragon Age universe. His act was certainly terrible and really unforgivable in many instances, but it was ultimately for a good cause. This really comes down to a question of whether you believe one necessary evil is required for the greater good? Do the ends eventually justify the means? Anders knew the Mage/Templar problem would never be solved through complacency. The only way to spur any real action was to completely destroy the imperfect system that had been put in place and bring a resolution forced through open conflict. I didn't agree with his execution, but I certainly understand what his desired result is. I personally didn't kill him, even though he sacrificed innocents. At the very least he recognizes through his own guilt the heinous act he committed. He does not take their deaths lightly.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Anders is actually one of the most courageous characters you encounter in the Dragon Age universe. His act was certainly terrible and really unforgivable in many instances, but it was ultimately for a good cause. This really comes down to a question of whether you believe one necessary evil is required for the greater good? Do the ends eventually justify the means? Anders knew the Mage/Templar problem would never be solved through complacency. The only way to spur any real action was to completely destroy the imperfect system that had been put in place and bring a resolution forced through open conflict. I didn't agree with his execution, but I certainly understand what his desired result is. I personally didn't kill him, even though he sacrificed innocents. At the very least he recognizes through his own guilt the heinous act he committed. He does not take their deaths lightly.

That's an oversimplification of the issue. I simultaneously acknowledge the concept of sacrificing for the greater good and condemn Anders. The thing is that mages, from all we can tell, are a slim minority of the populace, and there really is danger to allowing them to walk freely through the general population. I consider Anders to have knowingly caused an Annulment in order to start a war for the good of what from all I can tell is a slim minority, and in so doing to have sacrificed a sizable minority of that minority as well as who knows how many people from the population as a whole for the sake of the minority.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I mean, he didn't have a crystal ball, he isn't a fortune teller, he didn't know Meredith would annul the circle, he thought she would, had a very good idea that she would, and she proved him right. She chose to annul the circle, she did not have to. And why blame Anders, for things he "knew" rather than blame the templars for things they did. It makes no sense to me. Anders is only responsible for the deaths in the Chantry and the deaths of those hit by debris. He certainly is not responsible for the deaths of the mages in the circle. The templars are.

 

Anders entire plan hinges specifically on Meredith annulling the Circle. He needed it to happen, otherwise the mages aren't forced to fight back and rebel and murdering Elthina accomplishes nothing.

 

Also yes you can call Elthina innocent because the entire Chantry is not the Circle, nor is she responsible for the unsanctioned abuses of the templars. It's also not clear that she was the only priest inside. You could just as easily assume there is almost never anyone in Kirkwall at all given how few we see.

[Exaltation]

Well if you don't kill Anders there is a priest-prince wanting to kill everyone till he finds Anders lol.

"Men's hearts hold shadows darker than any tainted creature." - Flemeth

[Lulupab]

Anders entire plan hinges specifically on Meredith annulling the Circle. He needed it to happen, otherwise the mages aren't forced to fight back and rebel and murdering Elthina accomplishes nothing.
 
Also yes you can call Elthina innocent because the entire Chantry is not the Circle, nor is she responsible for the unsanctioned abuses of the templars. It's also not clear that she was the only priest inside. You could just as easily assume there is almost never anyone in Kirkwall at all given how few we see.

The Chantry in general is responsible and Elthina was knowing it when she was joining the chantry. Its like saying a soldier is innocent because he didn't kill like his comrades. He shouldn't have join if he wanted to be 'innocent'. She was either very ignorant or very smart, seeming innocent while ignoring the suffering of Kirkwall and preaching all is well.

Also you compare a scene to general gameplay. Sure we see less people when walking around but what we see during scenes is fact, for example in Sebastian scene where he shoots an arrow to chanter's board the background is full of people, the same place has few people when we are controlling Hawke. So whoever the scene shows are in side the chantry is true, claiming otherwise is stretching.

What? Of course it can. Even all the mages in Kirkwall themselves think so. The reason being that he was specifically trying to provoke an annulment so the templars would try to kill them. That's specifically trying to cause the same ethnic cleansing you railed against.
 
And even if that wasn't so, his goal isn't necessarily a worthwhile endeavor. A world without templars could be much more dangerous than the one he wanted to tear down.To say nothing of who he harmed to get to it.
 
And even if supporting the Circle System was inherently anti mage (it isn't), his decision to specifically kill innocent people so the templars will kill more innocent people so that a war where even more innocent people will be killed can and will still be branded as disgusting and deplorable. He probably created a much greater evil than the Circle was.

Anders destroyed the chantry in a way that no one else could be blame for it but himself. He is standing there, declaring wars on Templars and destroys the chanty when he is done with that speech. Meredith does what you think is disgusting, the funny part is Anders is glowing and his voice has changed right in front of Meredith and other Templars yet they seem to ignore the abomination responsible in front of them and go for innocent mages of the circle. An order like this with chantry on its head totally deserves what Anders did. Provoking is irrelevant, if templars promote a damaged person who has become a monster as knight commander that is entirely their fault. You quoted first sentence of my post and ignored the rest which was the elaboration. Anders wants to overthrow the chantry and its leash on mages, if you call that 'evil' then that is your opinion because it is not a fact, he simply has a cause.

[WarriorOfLight999]

I suppose Anders could have banked on the fact that there would be a call for Annulment. And yes, it's certainly not the worst writing I've seen either...

 

Still, from what I gather of Asunder, the mages spent the next three uncomfortable years as the Chantries whipping boys. I feel like the credit to mage revolution goes more to the hands of Wynne and her son, Rhys. And Fiona, for forcing the issue to a vote.

[Lulupab]

I suppose Anders could have banked on the fact that there would be a call for Annulment. And yes, it's certainly not the worst writing I've seen either...
 
Still, from what I gather of Asunder, the mages spent the next three uncomfortable years as the Chantries whipping boys. I feel like the credit to mage revolution goes more to the hands of Wynne and her son, Rhys. And Fiona, for forcing the issue to a vote.

That is correct, named people started the mage revolution but the fact that mages were very angry at Templars because of of Kirkwall incident really helped. This is actually acknowledged in the novel. If they annul a whole circle because of something they had absolutely nothing to do with, how can you expect other mages to feel safe in their prisons and do nothing?

[lil yonce]

Anders entire plan hinges specifically on Meredith annulling the Circle. He needed it to happen, otherwise the mages aren't forced to fight back and rebel and murdering Elthina accomplishes nothing.

 

Also yes you can call Elthina innocent because the entire Chantry is not the Circle, nor is she responsible for the unsanctioned abuses of the templars. It's also not clear that she was the only priest inside. You could just as easily assume there is almost never anyone in Kirkwall at all given how few we see.

And it could have been the case that what he did would be all for nothing. That he would executed and that would be the end of it. He needed it to happen for his cause, but it didn't have to happen. The templars chose to annul the circle and they get the blame to me. Also, the whole chantry doesn't have to be in the church that night, and Elthina is quite responsible as she's Meredith's only real superior and she could have spoken up in favor of the mages and made Meredith back down a long time ago. She was also the one who put Meredith in power in the first place. Plus, most important, she's part of the institution that oppresses all mages in southern Thedas. She tactily agrees to all of it in accepting her position, and most importantly in doing nothing about it when she could or at least try to. And since we see one floor of the chantry, I'm going by what we see, and that's Elthina and templars. If there are other priests or other templars in the chantry that night, I really don't care. They aren't innocent either. Anders' attack wasn't a random bombming, it was an attack on chantry ideology on magic and the mistreatment of mages that has occured under it for a thousand years.

[lil yonce]

I don't think you really grasped my objection to your post. The last sentence was "None of this is to absolve Meredith, of course; guilt is not a zero-sum game." I'm not saying that Meredith isn't worthy of blame. I'm saying that Anders is.

That was more a response to the first post I quoted in this thread. But no, I disagree that Anders is to blame for what happened to the mages. The templars were unreasonable, they did not explore the very viable alternatives before them, and they chose to kill the mages with questionable evidence and shaky reasoning as to why. I mean, Anders wouldn't be a catalyst to anything if Meredith hadn't chosen to annul the circle, so I don't see how he is to blame for what happened.

[Xilizhra]

That's an oversimplification of the issue. I simultaneously acknowledge the concept of sacrificing for the greater good and condemn Anders. The thing is that mages, from all we can tell, are a slim minority of the populace, and there really is danger to allowing them to walk freely through the general population. I consider Anders to have knowingly caused an Annulment in order to start a war for the good of what from all I can tell is a slim minority, and in so doing to have sacrificed a sizable minority of that minority as well as who knows how many people from the population as a whole for the sake of the minority.

Was there an alternative? The Circle system has already claimed far more lives than the war (which is between, effectively, two bands of guerrillas and no nations) ever could; do we let it continue on its present course for another nine hundred years? It's not as though the Divine could have been perceived as any ally to Anders or the mages, as all we heard from her was a plan to launch an Exalted March on Kirkwall if the templars ever lost control. The Annulment was at least timed in such a way that Meredith couldn't control the circumstances of it, and if Hawke isn't an evil bastard, more mages will clearly survive this way than they would have if Meredith had been able to declare it on her own terms, with a reason she could supply herself; even if Hawke is an evil bastard, the Annulment would have happened sooner or later and the templars look worse for declaring it right then.

[Andreas Amell]

To quote Samuel L. Jackson:

 

"Yes he deserves to die. I hope he burns in Hell!"

[Who Knows]

He's a terrorist that murdered innocents. I loathe the Chantry and prefer a reformed Circle if not outright mage freedom, but what Anders did was extreme and makes him a terrible figurehead for mage freedom. Even more so considering that either did or came close to killing that mage girl for a petty reason.

He needs to be put down.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Was there an alternative? The Circle system has already claimed far more lives than the war (which is between, effectively, two bands of guerrillas and no nations) ever could; do we let it continue on its present course for another nine hundred years? It's not as though the Divine could have been perceived as any ally to Anders or the mages, as all we heard from her was a plan to launch an Exalted March on Kirkwall if the templars ever lost control. The Annulment was at least timed in such a way that Meredith couldn't control the circumstances of it, and if Hawke isn't an evil bastard, more mages will clearly survive this way than they would have if Meredith had been able to declare it on her own terms, with a reason she could supply herself; even if Hawke is an evil bastard, the Annulment would have happened sooner or later and the templars look worse for declaring it right then.

The Circle system also meant that mages were taken someplace to learn how to properly use their abilities, and to turn into abominations surrounded by mages and templars if they were to turn at all. It also kept them away from the lynch mobs that seem to form to kill them whenever something bad happened around them, and whether or not the Chantry is responsible for that (I believe it is in part) leaving the Circles was a mistake on their part. (There's also the more minor bit of keeping mages under control so they couldn't use their powers against the populace, though frankly I think that could have been accomplished in other ways.)

 

As for the alternative, I still think that anyone clever enough to create a bomb capable of destroying the Chantry so utterly, who has as much magical power as Anders was supposed to, and who is willing to sell his life for a sufficiently big gain, could probably have cooked up some sort of plan to assassinate Meredith and leave the Circle in Cullen's relatively benevolent hands. It's not as much as you want to have, but the math as far as who benefits checks out a lot better, and only the potential Ser Alriks among the Templars really lose.