125 réponses à ce sujet

[Wulfram]

Lmao, classist? uhg.

 

In medieval Europe war was a rich mans game. You see they were the only ones that could afford training and equipment. No one is born knowing how to fight, it is something that is taught. So it makes sense that wealthy nobles and even the children of wealthy upper class merchants would have the most skill at arms, since their parents could afford to have them trained. 

 

Realistically that's more or less true, but DA pretty clearly operates under the conceit that "rogues" are very effective combatants.

 

Also, the Wardens do train to their recruits, and they wouldn't pick anyone who didn't show a lot of talent.

[BronzTrooper]

Lmao, classist? uhg.

 

In medieval Europe war was a rich mans game. You see they were the only ones that could afford training and equipment. No one is born knowing how to fight, it is something that is taught. So it makes sense that wealthy nobles and even the children of wealthy upper class merchants would have the most skill at arms, since their parents could afford to have them trained. 

 

I know how to fight and I have had literally zero training.  You could have the best training in the world, but with no skill to implement it, it's pretty much worthless.  Several of our companions throughout DA have been self-taught and they're pretty damn good at fighting.  Fighting is about more than just training.  You need the skill to implement it.  Hell, iirc, the description for rogues is that they are largely self-taught.  Assuming that someone can't fight because they lacked formal training is just ridiculous.

[General TSAR]

The Joining ensures that every single Grey Warden is a certified badass.

 

Winning at Russian Roulette does not make you a badass, it means you got lucky. 

[Palidane]

I like the Grey Wardens too.  I would have been completely fine with DA being a Grey Warden role each installment and even the same exact warden, but to say they're all highly skilled and more capable than most, that doesn't even follow Dragon Age history.  A very good example is the recruit at Ostagar, Jory, that was afraid the whole time there.  Alistair, didn't really show himself to be a warrior.  Honestly I think the bravest of crew in DA:O was Morrigan and Leliana. 

 

As for the battle at the warden stronghold, where they held off against the soldiers of King Arlund, well they were in a well fortified location.  That and the fact the mage warden, Avernus, was up to no good is what kept things at bay for a while  It wasn't the highly skilled wardens fighting off hundreds of other soldiers. 

 

One volunteering to become a warden doesn't make them skilled in the art of battle, it just means they've got guts.  If they pass the joining, they have the ability to sense darkspawn and kill the arch demon.  Though, I'm sure somewhere along the lines they train to learn to fight more effectively.. 

Jory was a competent Warrior and an accomplished tourney Knight, but since he didn't even become a Grey Warden, he doesn't even really count. I think you are majorly selling Alistair short. Sure, he can be a goofball at times, but that doesn't mean he isn't an absolutely deadly combatant. I'm not sure what Morrigan or Leliana did that was much braver than anyone else, but that's subjective, of course.

 

But... it totally was the highly skilled Wardens fighting off hundreds of other soldiers. I mean, that's just what happened. Sure, they had a fort, and demonic backup, but isn't that part of being skilled? Picking your battles and having magical assistance.

 

It's possible the Joining makes you stronger. In DAO and DAA, after a person takes the joining, they get one skill point and one feat point, totally separate from any level ups. Could be Gameplay and Story Segregation, of course, but still. And I'm sure the Grey Wardens spar amongst themselves and teach the new recruits how to throw down.

 

Not highever, Redcliff. Jory is from Redcliff, the tourny he fought in was at Castle Redcliff. 

 

Also Daveth had the right mindset when it came to dealing with the Blight, he'd do anything to end them and that's the kind of mindset many Warden's subscribe to.

Yeah, I was very impressed by Daveth. Sure, on the surface, he seems like a lowlife pickpocket who got dragooned into joining. But when you talk with him for a bit, you realize he has a lot more courage than Ser Jory, Knight of Redcliffe. He's ready and willing to sacrifice everything to stop the Blight, and that's what a Grey Warden needs. I don't know why he couldn't survive the Joining, I guess he just wasn't quite strong enough. Still, I'm always sorry to see him go.

 

Lmao, classist? uhg.

 

In medieval Europe war was a rich mans game. You see they were the only ones that could afford training and equipment. No one is born knowing how to fight, it is something that is taught. So it makes sense that wealthy nobles and even the children of wealthy upper class merchants would have the most skill at arms, since their parents could afford to have them trained. 

Then how do you explain the Human and Elf Mages, Dwarf Commoner, City Elf, Dalish Elf, and the Hawkes? Or Duncan, Sigrun, Velanna, Justice, Anders, Leliana, Morrigan, Zevran, Alistair, Fenris, Varric, Isabela, or Merrill?

 

This.

 

I think it is like playing Russian roulette, and anyone who undertakes the Joining can potentially die. Survivors aren't necessarily 'tougher' than those that died, just luckier. 

I'm tempted to replay DAO and DAA and write down every time someone says "strong enough to survive the Joining". Like, where did this idea even come from? Who implied that it was random chance? What's random about it? The ingredients are always the same, the only variable is the dude drinking it.

[Puppy Love]

Fair enough. This is fantasy you are both correct. My point really though is that it isn't classist to assume the wealthy would be the best fighters, since in the past that was how it worked.

Uhh, no. This is pretty much all wrong. Im sure you THINK you know how to fight, but go up against a trained man and you are just going to embarrass yourself.

"Skill" at fighting is not some sort of natural thing. You might be naturally bigger or stronger then someone giving you an advantage, but "skill" is taught. A man with the best training in the world will be skilled, because his training taught him. Sure in dragon age some of our companions are self taught, but as I conceded above, that is fantasy.

Your assumption that fighting is about more then just training is also pretty much false, numbers and equipment play a role, but assuming same equipment and same numbers the better trained side is going to win. Oftentimes in history armies of conscripts fail.

There is a reason the military doesn't just ask people if they are naturally skilled(that would be idiotic), they train them extensively before they see combat.

This is not true either.  There's skill and natural talent.  Same reason I'm a better artist then some people that bust their ass at it just to be as skilled as me.  Same reason two people can spend just as much time training in the same combat techniques but one will still be better.  Same reason not every soldier that goes through the same training has the same skills.  Same reason not everyone can make it through navy seal training.  Not to mention all combat skills came from people who were untrained that got into combat, and studied what does and does not work.  It's not so simple as to say training makes the warrior.  It is far more complex than that.  Every fight that rogue has been in and survived is experience, you learn from that, you get better.  If you practice with a knife, throwing it, ect, without training you will still get better and develop your own technique.  Humans invented martial combat, we are not monkeys that need to mimic someone else to figure it out, practice, and get better.

[Puppy Love]

Fantasy is how you explain it. Obviously.

Again, my point was that screaming "OMG CLASSISM!" at people saying the wealthy were better at combat is silly because that was how things really worked at one point in human history. It isn't classism, its using real life history as a reference point.

get the most experienced untrained natural talent from the street with real combat experience and put them against the best trained noble with no natural talent and no experience in real combat and I'll place my money on the experienced untrained guy with talent every time.  He's actually battle-tested and is a proven survivor.

[Puppy Love]

It's called instinct, it's also called being self taught and being a sentient being able to think and rationalize how to fight.  It involves experience ect.  Learning to fight is not limited to formal training.

 

And yes there's natural aptitude, same reason there's natural talents at sports ect.  The best at anything have both a natural aptitude for it AND training.

[WillieStyle]

Aren't the Grey Wardens modeled after the Night's Watch?  I thought the point wasn't so much that they were a bunch of super heroes.  But that they were the only ones willing to do the thankless tasks and make the tough choices necessary to keep the Darkspawn at bay.  And, like the Night's Watch, their best days are behind them.

[Puppy Love]

You would lose your money then, im afraid. Especially considering that noble is going to be wearing his armor, and your guy off the street will have zero idea on how to kill

Nice you assume the noble is walking around everywhere in full plate

[Puppy Love]

in both your scenarios it's not the noble being a better combatant warrior, is pure equipment or guards protecting him.  The issue is the skill of the individual.  You are not protecting your noblemen's skill this way.  A fat cheeto eating couch potato will beat your best knight if you give him a tank. 

[Puppy Love]

You have zero actual experience in martial arts or any actual combat of any sort don't you?

[BronzTrooper]

Lmao. Are you upset over how I destroyed your tank example?

Really man your acting like a clown here. Are you gonna sit here and tell me you have combat experience? Or that your some sort of martial arts god? From interacting with you here I can pretty much tell you don't really know what your talking about.

 

I'm guessing that you have no experience or training considering how you completely ignored the question.

[Puppy Love]

I do have some martial arts training, but I'm no god.  I'm experienced enough in the world to know, and have been forced into enough fights, some I won some I have not, and had friends from multiple walks of life to know, that it is no where near as simple as you are trying to make it out to be.  Humanity, combat, training, experience, intelligence, aptitude, psychology are all factors in determining who's a better combatant, training is one factor amongst many.  You are under some kind of strange delusion that training, and training alone makes the combatant.  You also are under the assumption that only nobles ever practiced or where training in combat.  That the world was that black and white.  You are also under the delusion that everyone has the same ability to learn what they are being taught, that every noble trained to fight will actually be good at it.  None of your delusions are how the world actually works.  It's infinitely more complex than that.

 

Is the average noble better than the average peasant, yes 9 times out of ten, but that's because the average noble peasant has no real experience, and certainly no training, but not every non noble is that average peasant, and those that aren't will break your mold completely.  If you had real combat experience and training one of the first things you would have been taught is to never underestimate your opponent and that even the most timid seeming opponent may surprise you, and that given a choice is best to avoid combat become even the most incompetent opponent can succeed in a lucky blow.

 

What you are missing is that training and experience are roughly equivalent, with one caveat, the one with experience has been tested in battle and will not flinch when their life is actually on the line.  Do you know how common a thing it is for trained soldiers to freeze in real combat?  You freeze it doesn't matter your training, if your opponent does not you are dead.

[WillieStyle]

Girls, girls, you're both pretty.  

[Palidane]

Guys, take it to the PM's, no reason to clutter up the thread. Let's get back on topic.

 

So I'm wondering what the exact status of the Grey Wardens is. The new book, Last Flight, pretty strongly implies the Orlesian Grey Wardens have gone rogue, as they abandoned their posts. But we know that Blackwall was a very high-ranking Warden there, and he's obviously still around. That probably indicates that whatever this corruption is, it's not universal in nature.

 

I'm also curious about how the Ferelden Wardens factor into this. From what we know, they are mostly based out of Amaranthine and Soldier's Peak, which is way to the east of Orlais. I know Awakening's is the black sheep of the Dragon Age family, but I can't imagine them casually corrupting Oghren and Nathaniel, and Sigrun. That probably means the Ferelden Warden's are still on Team Reality, but I don't know if we can expect any support from them. What do you guys think?

[BronzTrooper]

ANYONE can get hit with fear or ptsd. It doesn't matter how many battles you have fought in. What you said here is nonsense. Training can help combat these fears and instill some DISCIPLINE in men, and discipline is even more important in a battle then skill. But it doesnt really matter, as when the battle starts to go poorly the losing side is going to cut and run. That is when the real slaughter happens. This can happen to anyone, even the most experienced and "naturally talented" man.

 

Uh, actually, yeah it does.  The amount of experience you've had in combat affects what it would take to scare or traumatize you.  You seem convinced that training a discipline are the only things that matter in combat, which is far from true.  Combat relies on multiple different aspects, including the skill of the fighters, their experience, their training (even if they are self-taught), how disciplined they are (which mostly matters in a large battle setting, not a small skirmish), and many other factors.

 

For example: the German military in WWII was better trained, better equipped, more disciplined, and more experienced than the majority of the Allied armies, yet they were still overrun due to the immense numbers the Allies had.  Hell, there's records of a heavily defended German bunker being routed by 2- count them, 2- American machine gunners (don't remember the name of the bunker, but I suck with German names, so meh).  A German tanker once escaped out of his burning tank and encountered a M-4 Sherman on foot.  The sight of the Sherman scared him into fleeing almost immediately.  Remember: the German military was one of the most disciplined military forces in the world during WWII.

 

In all likelihood, if that same tanker had encountered a Sherman on foot at least 2-3 times beforehand, he wouldn't have immediately fled when he saw it.  But he didn't, so the sight of the Sherman terrified him.

 

Don't mistake for my lack of specified sources for ignorance.  I have a hard time remembering names, especially foreign ones.