183 réponses à ce sujet

[wtfman99]

This is a pretty simple thing, heres some examples below.

 

 

Remember in DA2 depending on your class one of your siblings died?

 

For me, my first play through is a 2 handed warrior so I got to keep Bethany around whom I really like. The second play through I usually roll a mage, so I did...and ugh, Carver...I really wished I was able to choose who did not make it through that ogre encounter, because outside of seeing how Carver was through one play through, I would of sacrified him every time after.

 

Anyways, I am sure in Inquisition there will be some frustrating decisions, but I hope it won't be taken out of your hands over something such as a class you pick.

 

The other one was no matter what you did, it always lead to fighting both Meredeth and Orsino. I could choose any dialogue along the way but it always lead to the same place.

[Enigmatick]

It was never in your hands to begin with, choosing who dies in the sibling situation feels cheap to me.

 

Also Carver was a lot more interesting than Bethany.

[Ponendus]

If you encounter a dirty great ogre in the wild with your family, you really have no choice about who its going to squish.

[PillarBiter]

Carver was a serious minority complex douche. But, in the additional DLC's he was more allright. Once he had found himself in the templars or grey wardens he was simply just a zealot. That's slightly more tolerable.

He's an interesting character, just not likeable, that's all. I felt the same way about fenris.

 

On the meridith/orsino fight though, I really felt gimped. That was really annoying that you had to fight 'm both anyway.

[Arvaarad]

Whenever certain choices are locked off, I assume that the alternative results in the hero either (1) dying immediately or (2) not doing anything heroic. Fighting the templars taking Bethany would be a good example of (1), and the ogre sibling death is an example of (2).

Varric isn't going to tell the story of two mage siblings who attracted too much attention and got locked in the Circle before they could go to the Deep Roads. Nor would he tell the story of two non-mages who had no reason to risk the Deep Roads.

So, rather than those universes existing and resulting in non-traditional game overs, they're just omitted.

[thedancingdruid]

I agree with the OP. It's not "cheap", and there has been precedent before with the Virmire situation. I would have greatly enjoyed rp'ing two mages hiding in Kirkwall or two warriors greatful not to be hiding any longer, irregardless of the personalities involved.

 

I'm all for the most freedom possible when it comes to an RPG.

 

I hated that Orsino lost it regardless of the player's stance on the situation. It made no sense that he would go all harvester if the PC was on his side, desperation aside, especially if the PC was a mage. That said, it also made no sense if the PC was a warrior and stood with Meridith that the PC was going to be "arrested" as Cullen suggested. Arrested for what? Though all of that may have just been the result of rushed, rough-shod writing. The first example is more appropos in my opinion.

 

For me an RPG needs to focus on the "role" aspect, not the customization of weapons, armor, class etc. akin to how I change after I sit down with my family to D&D. My son is no longer my son, Shane, he's Ryl, a holy cleric and we're no longer in our home, we're in Phandelan, yes we're still on the starter set of 5th. Oh well, my point remains.

[Dubya75]

I really don't see how choosing (or worse yet, deciding) who lives or dies make for good gaming choices in that particular setting. That would be more like god playing instead of role playing.

All I want is to be able to make MY own choices as a character in the game.

I can see why Bioware chose to do it like that in order to balance the variety of companions based on their class.

Anyway, I enjoy Carver a lot. Much more than Bethany.

[The_Prophet_of_Donk]

Carver reminded me of annoying little pratts....

It allowed for more thought provoking gameplay. If you're a mage and pick Bethany to live, 97.3% (made up #) yyou would be pro-mage because you picked the one you like. You pick Carver and you're a warrior, you're prolbably going to be a Mage-Hunter (Templar) and there is no urgency... Hell If we're Templars, why care about mages? We'll just follow Meredith blindly....

[Ina]

I like controlling my characters actions and perhaps influence others, but I don't want direct control like that of other characters. They are their own people. So while I too prefer Bethany significantly, I'd find it just cheap and horrible to stand there and be like "well Carver I like Bethany more, so why don't you take one for the team and get killed?"...yeah, no thanks.

 

I think not everything should be about me, my PC and what I care about. I know it's a role-playing game, but there needs to be depth like that for me as it's primarily a story and character driven rpg. This is one reason I didn't have an issue with the DA2 ending. Do I wish there was a chance to stop Anders or at least significantly reduce the impact? Maybe but then there would be no DAI as we know it and it would be a different story. It could have been better or it could have been worse. Ultimately, story and vision of the writing team needs to take some priority. We're not all gonna like it, but that's part of telling a credible story.

[InfinitePaths]

You can't control everything IRL too, can you?

 

Some things happen that are out of your control.

[phantomrachie]

Personally I prefer Bethany but that could be because I've only got 1 Mage Hawk so I'm more familiar with her then Carver.

 

 

I agree with the OP. It's not "cheap", and there has been precedent before with the Virmire situation.

 

The Virmire Situation is totally different, there you've got two characters who you have time to rescue and you've to decide which one to rescue. With Bethany & Carver, they jump out in front of an Ogre to protect their mother, with very little time for Hawk or any other character to react to it.

 

There is no choice to be made here, either Carver or Bethany dies protecting their mother, Hawk couldn't push a different sibling in front of the Ogre. The only thing that Hawk's quicker reactions would've resulted in was either Hawk dying or no one dying.

 

The only way you could've chosen who died, is if the beginning was written completely differently or if at some stage BioWare asked you which one you wanted to die.

 

I agree that it was annoying that both Orsino & Meredith went nuts regardless of your choices but I think that is a symptom of DA2 showing both Mages and Templars at their worst rather than BioWare purposely taking away choice.

[Ina]

The Virmire situation is not comparable. The situations are completely different and one is a military led mission where sacrifices are expected to be made. I mean just think about the Hawke situation in real life. You're with your siblings, how does it look to push one of them in front of mortal danger in order to save your own ass? The decision can be made by one of you to do something thus ending in death, but there's no way making a choice to sacrifice your sibling in that situation will look good.

[Loyal Tevinter]

I feel the loss of a sibling in DA 2 happened too early in the game for any of us to get emotionally attached or invested to the character. I liked Bethany way more than Carver and wished mage Hawke could have traveled with her. Hopefully in DAI we can get a reasonable amount of time with a party member before something happens to them.

[PhroXenGold]

I love that you don't have control over which sibling lives. It makes the world feel so much more believable and immersive when events happen like that which are beyond my control.

[Aurawolf]

I am sure there are going to be situations in DA:I that you can't control the outcome. It is in everyone of the Dragon Age series. My favorite is when your character comes in a room and just watches as one person kills another than acts, that is great versus me yelling do something you bonehead.

[Herr Uhl]

The sibling thing aside, Orsino turning into the harvester when you're on his side doesn't really make much sense. It seemed tacked on.

 

Meredith was cray though, so that makes sense.

[Reaverwind]

If you encounter a dirty great ogre in the wild with your family, you really have no choice about who its going to squish.

 

Yes, but Bioware undermined that by having the outcome preset by class selection.

[Chashan]

I love that you don't have control over which sibling lives. It makes the world feel so much more believable and immersive when events happen like that which are beyond my control.

 

Why not randomize the outcome then, rather than arbitrarily making Hawke's mage-/non-magedom the deciding factor? Latter doesn't really sound too convincing to me.

 

Besides, choosing between the two in the heat of the moment could have been realistically handled had BW wanted to. Have both siblings throw themselves at the Ogre, and whomever of those Hawke jumps to for aid lives while the other gets crushed by the Ogre. Reasonable as there would simply not be enough time to save both.

Generally speaking, I would certainly appreciate BW rather going that route in that type of situation.

[Reaverwind]

Why not randomize the outcome then, rather than arbitrarily making Hawke's mage-/non-magedom the deciding factor? Latter doesn't really sound too convincing to me.

 

Besides, choosing between the two in the heat of the moment could have been realistically handled had BW wanted to. Have both siblings throw themselves at the Ogre, and whomever of those Hawke jumps to for aid lives while the other gets crushed by the Ogre. Reasonable as there would simply not be enough time to save both.

Generally speaking, I would certainly appreciate BW rather going that route in that type of situation.

 

Indeed - who ended up dying should have been entirely unpredictable.

[PhroXenGold]

Why not randomize the outcome then, rather than arbitrarily making Hawke's mage-/non-magedom the deciding factor? Latter doesn't really sound too convincing to me.

 

Besides, choosing between the two in the heat of the moment could have been realistically handled had BW wanted to. Have both siblings throw themselves at the Ogre, and whomever of those Hawke jumps to for aid lives while the other gets crushed by the Ogre. Reasonable as there would simply not be enough time to save both.

Generally speaking, I would certainly appreciate BW rather going that route in that type of situation.

 

Stop using meta knowledge. Hawke doesn't know that if she'd been born a mage Carver would've lived 

 

Of course that scene could've been written to have Hawke chose, but that would defeat the point IMO. Part of that reason for that scene is to demostrate that you are powerless. You can't just pick and chose what you want to happen. And that's why I think it's a good scene - yes, there should have been more character development and interactions before it, but the basic principle, that you do not have any control over who dies, is perfect. Because it's realistic. And that makes it into a immersive, believable RPG instead of a childish power fantasy where everthing you want to happen does.

 

But actually yeah, making it random would be pretty cool. It's a bit too early in the game for that to really work - the player would just restart until they got the one they wanted. Imagine instead, one of the party members died at the beginning of Act 2. At random. But the randomisation is done when you first start the game. So no save scumming. That character is dead. Doesn't matter what you think of them, whether you like, dislike or even love them. They are dead, and you've no chance what so ever to have someone else die in their place. That would be brilliant IMO. Of course, it would create a massive shitstorm on the BSN when people lost their waifus to random chance, but so what?

[Reaverwind]

Stop using meta knowledge. Hawke doesn't know that if she'd been born a mage Carver would've lived 

 

Of course that scene could've been written to have Hawke chose, but that would defeat the point IMO. Part of that reason for that scene is to demostrate that you are powerless. You can't just pick and chose what you want to happen. And that's why I think it's a good scene - yes, there should have been more character development and interactions before it, but the basic principle, that you do not have any control over who dies, is perfect. Because it's realistic. And that makes it into a immersive, believable RPG instead of a childish power fantasy where everthing you want to happen does.

 

 

 

 

The problem with that scene is that it happened entirely within a cutscene. It breaks immersion when everyone is standing around with their thumbs up their ass while the ogre is initiating death by melodrama.

[PhroXenGold]

The problem with that scene is that it happened entirely within a cutscene. It breaks immersion when everyone is standing around with their thumbs up their ass while the ogre is initiating death by melodrama.

 

I'd hardly say they were "standing around with their thumbs up their ass". They're caught by surpise and only the sibling is close enough to react to save your mother. By the time anyone could do anything to help Carver/Beth, it's too late.

[Ibn_Shisha]

For me an RPG needs to focus on the "role" aspect, not the customization of weapons, armor, class etc. akin to how I change after I sit down with my family to D&D. My son is no longer my son, Shane, he's Ryl, a holy cleric and we're no longer in our home, we're in Phandelan, yes we're still on the starter set of 5th. Oh well, my point remains.

Off-topic, but is it any better than the previous blasphemy put out by WotC?  I haven't actually bothered to look through it yet after making the mistake of looking through the 4 PHB (shudders).

 

Luckily I have a great group playing 2.

[Fearsome1]

The other one was no matter what you did, it always lead to fighting both Meredeth and Orsino. I could choose any dialogue along the way but it always lead to the same place.

 

Granted it took some time to warm up to Carver, and Bethany was easily my favorite too! In DA2, despite any perceived problems with the game I enjoyed it, but I felt most offended and put off by being forced to battle both Meredith & Orsino. Turning both into a final boss rendered Hawke's decision over who to side with quite arbitrary. The ultimate battle should have been with Meredith as the bad guy based upon her corruption by the idol - OR - Orsino as the bad buy based upon the revelation of his culpability in Quentin's research [and thus Leandra's death].

 

Not both! T'was a dumb decision.

[Medhia_Nox]

That's a decision made for the NPCs... the NPCs should never, ever, be the puppets of the PC.  They should be as fully realized and independent as possible.

 

This seems to contradict what I always say about Anders... my issue is not that he blew of the Chantry, it is that I KNEW he was doing it and could not control MY character to stop him... nor, was I given any ability afterward for MY character to properly react (I would have run to the bomb site to try to do... "something").  

 

I don't mind if something happens to my PC that I don't control... just so long as I get to then, at least, react to it so that "something" about my character is in my hands.