148 réponses à ce sujet

[Willowhugger]

I've heard some interesting opinions from fans of the game as to whether or not they think Bethany should go to the Circle/whether she would REALLY be happy there. Indeed, some have stated they think she's "weak-willed" for liking it there or they don't believe she would no matter what.

 

On my end, during my first playthrough, I sent her to the Grey Wardens because I thought of the Circles as a kind of hell on Earth BEFORE all of Meredith's abuses. I also thought the Grey Wardens were the quirky band of misfits I'd left behind in Vigil's Keep. I forgot to listen to Anders that it was actually a bunch of really unpleasant and dour people everywhere else. As such, Bethany was miserable there.

 

Now I've never actually done Circle Bethany but I've read up on her about how she becomes a teacher for new apprentices and one of the most beloved people at said Circle. I think it's interesting that we get the idea that Kirkwall's Circle may be more like Fereldans with bad eggs like Ser Alrik and Ser Karras versus every single Templar.

 

We never get to see inside it so it's a bit of cognitive dissonance on my behalf.

 

I do find it ironic, though, that a girl who wants nothing to do with being an apostate, mercenary, or criminal is forced into it by the very Templars she's trying to do the right thing by.

[DeathScepter]

don't forget that Anders is heavily influenced by Justice so whatever he say has to be taken with a grain of salt.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

don't forget that Anders is heavily influenced by Justice so whatever he say has to be taken with a grain of salt.

 

More like an oil-tanker of it.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

The Kirkwall Circle sounds pretty rotten, but I think Bethany would go back to it by choice if its issues gets straightened out (or go to a normal one). I can totally see her liking that life and wanting to stay. Ironically, I would argue that Bethany actually deserves the right to choose life outside the Circle if she wants it. She's not the type of mage you really have to worry about being unsupervised (*makes sideways look at Anders, Merrill*).

[ShadowLordXII]

As I've said before, my big problem is that Hawke doesn't do anything about Bethany being taken.

 

The scene also wasn't clear on whether Bethany volunteered to go to the Circle or if she was caught during the expedition? How did she get caught? Did someone betray Bethany to the templars? Did Bethany heal an injured kitten and Cullen saw it?

 

It's also weirder because Hawke had earlier slaughtered an entire platoon of templars in order to save some strangers and yet doesn't try to do anything for his own sister. If Hawke killed Cullen and his few guards, who would know? Kirkwall is so chaotic that templars could be killed by bandits or city guard imposters. Considering all of the friends that Hawke now has, who would sell him out to Meredith (who everyone hates)? How about using diplomacy and pointing out that Hawke has saved Cullen's life and that of his men (Bethany could have helped as well) and have Cullen look the other way to settle their debt?

 

Circle Bethany would have been interesting, but instead it comes off as forced drama. At least with templar Cullen, the game provides reasoning for why he'd join the order and it's made clear that he's signing up of his own free will. Plus, it speaks volumes that Cullen never once sold out his brother/sister during his tenure as a templar.

[Jaison1986]

I would say making Bethany an warden is the forced drama in the story.

[ShadowLordXII]

I would say making Bethany an warden is the forced drama in the story.

 

Well the "getting sick from the taint" part is certainly forced/scripted. But the part about her being a grey warden if Anders is along does make for an interesting dilemna. If she doesn't go then she'll die, but being a warden isn't a guaranteed happy life (Carver is happier as a warden than Bethany) as Bethany will later say.

 

It's also convenient that a group of wardens happen to be wandering around, but that's minor and can be accept as it leads to a decent moment. Hawke is forced to let go of his sister/brother in order to save them and shoulder their initial resentment.

[Jester]

I would say making Bethany an warden is the forced drama in the story.

Why?

 

The only thing I can think of, is that being infected by the Taint is not a problem in any other situation. All of Warden's friends slaughtered their way through Deep Roads and none of them suffered from the Taint, despite the fact that only Alistair is a Warden there.

[Darkly Tranquil]

I get the impression that Bethany finds life in the Circle agreeable because:
- she no longer has to live in fear of being caught by the Templars
- she no longer worries that she will bring trouble on her family or cause them be forced to move to keep her secret
- she can finally have a settled environment that she won't have to leave at the drop of a hat
- she finds a fulfilling purpose in teaching

For Bethany, who is a fairly passive, peaceful person, the relatively calm and stable environment of the Circle is preferable to the constant action, travel, and danger of being a Grey Warden (which Carver, conversely, thrives on).

[sylvanaerie]

While I don't believe Bethany is happy in either environment, she seems to be the counterpoint to Carver, being a mostly calm, centered individual as opposed to his personality which seems fueled by conflict (of any type).  Even his non warden choice is the worst possible thing he could choose to do and done, I believe, just to stick it to Hawke and prove he's not in her shadow.  Bethany always wanted a 'normal' life, not worried about being discovered every moment, on the run and watching over her shoulders for the next templar patrol who might see her use magic to save someone's life or something.  This attitude is even brought up when she is discussing the need for them to get status, money, anything--even Bartrand's expedition--to ensure stability in her life.

 

In the Circle, suddenly she's among peers, friends and even students (one of her students is the young girl you can save from Anders/Justice in his Act 2 companion quest) who respect her skill, not the odd mage out of a family of mundanes.  Yes, she had her father, a mage as well, but he's been dead for ...2?  5? years.  I forget.  All the conversations with her are her wishes that she (and her family) had been able to live a quiet life, normal, not on the run.

 

If you take Bethany to Legacy prior to losing her at the end of Act 1 the DLC is difficult but not impossible to run, and you will get a LOT of different dialogue/ambient banter from Bethany.  Mostly expressing how she would dislike being a warden, all that constant fighting.

 

I realize her being taken is just a plot device, which, in light of what Hawke does for Anders and his friend (total strangers) vs his own family, makes zero sense, but at that point, I think she's relieved to have it over.  I have to wonder if it wasn't Bethany herself who turned herself over.  Her adapting to the Circle isn't so much that she enjoys it (because she doesn't seem very happy when you encounter her at the end of Act 2), but at least she's not embittered, and she has a full life ahead of her instead of a short, unhappy life filled with combat (something she doesn't enjoy) ultimately dying at darkspawn hands or ending up so tainted she becomes like Larius.

[Jaison1986]

I think Bethany was found and then she surrendered without incident. Her going out of her way to be found doesn't make much sense to me, not to mention it would be an insult to all the sacrifices her family made for her sake. Part of me is just hoping we can find her hiding with some circle mages and we can offer her shelter with the Inquisition.

[lil yonce]

The Kirkwall Circle sounds pretty rotten, but I think Bethany would go back to it by choice if its issues gets straightened out (or go to a normal one). I can totally see her liking that life and wanting to stay. Ironically, I would argue that Bethany actually deserves the right to choose life outside the Circle if she wants it. She's not the type of mage you really have to worry about being unsupervised (*makes sideways look at Anders, Merrill*).

Bethany would never be given the right to choose a free life if left to the Chantry and Bethany would never defy convention when pressed like Anders or Merril to live free. She joins the Kirkwall circle and that's that. You need mages like Anders and Merril to even give mages like Bethany a chance at living free in the first place.

[Dabrikishaw]

I prefer making Bethany a Grey Warden. Better fighting the good fight against evil.

[renfrees]

Bethany sounds much happier in the Circle than she's in the Wardens. It's even reflected in her Legacy dialogues, if you bring her along. And besides, giving her to the Wardens you essentially deny her a chance at having children in the future, as well as force her to go on Calling at the age of what - 50 max? It could come sooner, you know. In the Circle she's eventually freed by Hawke (unless you're utterly cruel and let Meredith kill her), and could have a chance at normal untainted life (so much as any mage's life could be normal).

[Willowhugger]

I prefer making Bethany a Grey Warden. Better fighting the good fight against evil.

 

Which is why I prefer she ends up with the Mages.

By Dragon Age: Inquisition, she'll be able to join the fight against the Elder One.

[Kenshen]

Bethany sounds much happier in the Circle than she's in the Wardens. It's even reflected in her Legacy dialogues, if you bring her along. And besides, giving her to the Wardens you essentially deny her a chance at having children in the future, as well as force her to go on Calling at the age of what - 50 max? It could come sooner, you know. In the Circle she's eventually freed by Hawke (unless you're utterly cruel and let Meredith kill her), and could have a chance at normal untainted life (so much as any mage's life could be normal).

 

Can circle mages have kids?  I don't recall this ever being mentioned in game.

 

To me Bethany lived a life of guilt having to be one of the reasons her family had to live a life of hiding and being on the run so it wouldn't surprise me that much if she allowed herself to be noticed and caught while Hawke was away.  The last thing she would want is for Hawke to put up a fight for her and that is why I think we don't. 

 

Now this brings up a question I have had that I still don't understand, why does she have to stay at the circle 24/7 when she has family in the city that want her.  As long as she shows up to the circle every day (or 5 days a week) why can't it be like going to school or a job?  It is my understanding that many parents don't want anything to do with a child once they are deemed a mage but we meet several that don't act that way.  Seems to me that the circle would have a lot less troubles if the mages could stay in consistent contact with family and friends.

[Willowhugger]

 

Can circle mages have kids?  I don't recall this ever being mentioned in game.

 

No, if they do, they have them taken away.

 

Kirkwall mages are also celibate, which is why Isabella gives Bethany erotic books.

 

 

Now this brings up a question I have had that I still don't understand, why does she have to stay at the circle 24/7 when she has family in the city that want her.  As long as she shows up to the circle every day (or 5 days a week) why can't it be like going to school or a job?  It is my understanding that many parents don't want anything to do with a child once they are deemed a mage but we meet several that don't act that way.  Seems to me that the circle would have a lot less troubles if the mages could stay in consistent contact with family and friends.

 

Because the Templars and Chantry system are oppressive, bluntly enough.

 

They don't think mages can be trusted not to become Apostates if they're let out of the Circles and deliberately try to isolate them.

 

Even if you're pro-Templar, most acknowledge mages are treated like criminals.

They just have a very luxurious prison.

 

I have a three part essay on the Templar vs. Mage conflict on my blog. http://unitedfederat...-age-mages.html

[SmilesJA]

I don't think Bethany was truly happy in the Circle. Sure she found out it wasn't as bad as she thought it would be, but the reason she surrendered herself (the game implies that she did.) was for her family. I don't think she was aware of the true dangers of Circle until Meredith unleashed the Right of Annulment, It was only then that she realized the sacrifices her family made to keep her free.

[congokong]

The best fate for Bethany is the Circle; especially since she's likely freed from it at the end of the game unless your Hawke is an evil bastard. With the Grey Wardens she'll inevitably die young and is apparently forced into further joinings to keep her alive. Then there's the whole nightmare thing. Being a Grey Warden does suck and it's not something Bethany would ever voluntarily want.

 

That being said, on my one playthrough where Bethany actually survived the prologue I had her become a Grey Warden. For one it's a nod to the order so relevant in DA:O. Besides that, Bethany and my Hawke were inseparable; doing every mission in Act 1 together. Having to give her up to strangers in order to save her was very touching and returning to Kirkwall without her made it feel like part of Hawke was missing. Playing Act 2 without her was strange at first too. Encountering her as a Grey Warden in Act 2's end was like a blast from the past as by that point I had almost forgotten her. Seeing her in her warden attire with that cold demeanor showed just how much had changed. There was a nice rekindling of their relationship in Act 3 with Legacy and her other cameos but they knew they could never be a true family again. That isn't necessarily true with Circle Bethany. Lastly, I can't see my Hawke just letting Cullen and the other templars take Bethany away.

 

In the end, story-wise I feel Bethany is best as a Grey Warden.

[SmilesJA]

I feel Bethany receives the best character development if she were sent to the Circle. She's more badass as a Grey Warden though.

[Sifr]

As I've said before, my big problem is that Hawke doesn't do anything about Bethany being taken.

 

The scene also wasn't clear on whether Bethany volunteered to go to the Circle or if she was caught during the expedition? How did she get caught? Did someone betray Bethany to the templars? Did Bethany heal an injured kitten and Cullen saw it?

 

It's implied that Bethany willingly volunteered to go into the Circle, as she'd previously asked Aveline to find her some information about the Circle, so she'd apparently been considering it for some time.

 

Hawke letting her go without a fight also makes sense, since if you pick the aggressive option "Over my dead body!" she tells Hawke not to fight the Templars and that she wants to go, a decision that Hawke's obviously not happy about, but relucantly decides to acquiesce to since it'd only make things worse for everyone.

 

As for her character development and the best outcome for her, she seems far happier and content as a Circle Mage than as a Warden.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I got the sense she volunteered. I think Cullen says her cooperation was what spared Hawke's family further legal punishment. That she she begs Hawke not to interfere. The codex also says she supports the Circle system. In the end it's Meredith's broken policies and the illegal abuses that turn her against the Cricle in Kirkwall. If the Circle was working properly like it was supposed to, then I suspect she probably would have been content there.

[renfrees]

Can circle mages have kids?  I don't recall this ever being mentioned in game.

It's forbidden, but she's not in the Circle by the end of the game, thus she can if she wanted to. Becoming a Warden is irreversible, as Anders learns in Legacy.

[Iakus]

I get the impression that Bethany finds life in the Circle agreeable because:
- she no longer has to live in fear of being caught by the Templars
- she no longer worries that she will bring trouble on her family or cause them be forced to move to keep her secret
- she can finally have a settled environment that she won't have to leave at the drop of a hat
- she finds a fulfilling purpose in teaching

For Bethany, who is a fairly passive, peaceful person, the relatively calm and stable environment of the Circle is preferable to the constant action, travel, and danger of being a Grey Warden (which Carver, conversely, thrives on).

Pretty much all this.  Bethany wants to be seen as "normal"  Carver's the one who wants to be a hero.  In the Circle, Bethany gets the closest thing she can to normalcy.  She can practice magic openly without being regarded as a freak.  She no longer has to live in fear for herself or her family.  She's just another mage.  She fits in well in the Circle.  Even Meredith compliments her as an exemplary member of the CIrcle in Act 3.

 

And teh Codex entry for Bethany as a CIrcle Mage in Act 2 confirms that she found most of the Templars to be decent people just trying to do their jobs. 

[Xilizhra]

Because Bethany seems to find contentment in the Circle at the expense of the fate of her fellow mages, judging by the total lack of any indication we get that she's trying to improve it, I've come to favor just having her die in Lothering, because that way at least one sibling will be able to live a life of both satisfaction and integrity.