Because Bethany seems to find contentment in the Circle at the expense of the fate of her fellow mages, judging by the total lack of any indication we get that she's trying to improve it, I've come to favor just having her die in Lothering, because that way at least one sibling will be able to live a life of both satisfaction and integrity.
She becomes a teacher of the younger apprentices. And a well-respected one. I'd say she's improving the fate of her fellow mages.
Bethany would never be given the right to choose a free life if left to the Chantry
That's why I said, "I would argue [she] deserves [it](...)"
and Bethany would never defy convention when pressed like Anders or Merril to live free. She joins the Kirkwall circle and that's that.
... which is why I say she deserves it, and would argue that those two don't.
You need mages like Anders and Merril to even give mages like Bethany a chance at living free in the first place.
I think I get what you're saying, but disagree. Nobody is willing to give mages more freedom when they use their magic to commit acts of terrorism and fux around with Blood Magic, it will just make them less opposed to the Circle. With Bethany, though, I think people would be willing to make some exceptions. They just need to be shown that those mages actually exist, lest the stereotype them with Anders/Merrill.
It's forbidden, but she's not in the Circle by the end of the game, thus she can if she wanted to. Becoming a Warden is irreversible, as Anders learns in Legacy.
I don't think it's forbidden. But it's not encouraged.
I think I get what you're saying, but disagree. Nobody is willing to give mages more freedom when they use their magic to commit acts of terrorism and fux around with Blood Magic, it will just make them less opposed to the Circle. With Bethany, though, I think people would be willing to make some exceptions. They just need to be shown that those mages actually exist, lest the stereotype them with Anders/Merrill.
The Circle is imperfect, we need people like Anders (maybe without the bombing) and Merril to show that the Circle needs reforming. Bethany is the type who doesn't want to rock the boat.
Bethany has to freeze herself emotionally to cope with being a warden but it alienates everyone.
Thats why although I like being a mage I do wish I could have saved her.
She becomes a teacher of the younger apprentices. And a well-respected one. I'd say she's improving the fate of her fellow mages.
Never mind. Xilizhra haves some petty hatred for Bethany because she isn't an pro mage extremist the same way that nutcase Anders is.
The Circle is imperfect, we need people like Anders (maybe without the bombing) and Merril to show that the Circle needs reforming. Bethany is the type who doesn't want to rock the boat.
She becomes a teacher of the younger apprentices. And a well-respected one. I'd say she's improving the fate of her fellow mages.
Marginally. But her attitude toward it to Anders is far too apologetic to make me think that she'd be that much good in the long term.
Never mind. Xilizhra haves some petty hatred for Bethany because she isn't an pro mage extremist the same way that nutcase Anders is.
Where did you get the idea that I hate Bethany? I don't.
People like Anders and Merrill are the reason why people support the Circle.
I'd say it's more due to the nature of the people doing the supporting that they support it.
That's why I said, "I would argue [she] deserves [it](...)"
... which is why I say she deserves it, and would argue that those two don't.
I think I get what you're saying, but disagree. Nobody is willing to give mages more freedom when they use their magic to commit acts of terrorism and fux around with Blood Magic, it will just make them less opposed to the Circle. With Bethany, though, I think people would be willing to make some exceptions. They just need to be shown that those mages actually exist, lest the stereotype them with Anders/Merrill.
Saying that she deserves it means nothing when she can't get it. Its empty sentiment when it amounts to "you deserve freedom but there's no way you can actually ever get it within this system that I endorse so too bad I guess." Being a "good" mage by your standards or Chantry standards means what then? What reward is there? Anders and Merril - who I would certainly argue are good mages themselves - but not "good" by Chantry and Dalish standards - are free and she is not.
And consider exactly why Anders bombed the Chantry - to expose the inherent injustice of the circle of magi, to fight for magi liberation. He is not waiting for anyone to give mages freedoms - that is a fundamental problem in this and it will never happen anyway. Freedom is a right all mages have as men and women and there should not be exceptions for those deemed worthy by society that hates them collectively. Its a repulsive approach.
Never mind. Xilizhra haves some petty hatred for Bethany because she isn't an pro mage extremist the same way that nutcase Anders is.
Saying that she deserves it means nothing when she can't get it. Its empty sentiment when it amounts to "you deserve freedom but there's no way you can actually ever get it within this system that i endorse so too bad I guess." Being a "good" mage by your standards or Chantry standards means what then? What reward is there? Anders and Merril - who I would certainly argue are good mages themselves - but not "good" by Chantry and Dalish standards - are free and she is not.
And consider exactly why Anders bombed the Chantry - to expose the inherent injustice of the circle of magi, to fight for magi liberation. He is not waiting for anyone to give mages freedoms - that is a fundamental problem in this and it will never happen anyway. Freedom is a right all mages have as men and women and there should not be exceptions for those deemed worthy by society that hates them collectively. Its a repulsive approach.
How is an possessed abomination and an blood mage that makes deals with demons "good mages"? They certanly have good intentions, but as the old saying goes, that's what the road to hell is made of. And being an good mage is not about following chantry standards or dalish's or anyone else, being an good mage is simply to refrain from messing with dangerous things that are likely going to get you and other people killed.
Bombing the Chantry exposes nothing, if he wanted to expose the Chantry for their misdeeds, he should work into making the population aware of their various crimes. These are all pretty words, but going around saying mages deserve the same freedoms as the common people is an understatement. Are we to assume every mage will be as responsible as people like Bethany or Wynne? That's one hell of an bet. I agree that mages need the freedom to administrate themselves, but going about thinking that following some righteous cause without seeing the concerns of both sides will likely lead to failure or disaster.
Marginally. But her attitude toward it to Anders is far too apologetic to make me think that she'd be that much good in the long term.
She keeps kids from killing themselves or others with magic or going abomination. That's a good long-term vocation.
Heck she'd be a freaking inspiration with Malcolm Hawke's teachings: "I will serve that which is best in me, not that which is most base"
She keeps kids from killing themselves or others with magic or going abomination. That's a good long-term vocation.
Heck she'd be a freaking inspiration with Malcolm Hawke's teachings: "I will serve that which is best in me, not that which is most base"
Ultimately, my dislike for Bethany's story comes down to one of my few Doylist issues with a piece of media, and that is that her story seems to take the "optimum" conclusion by having her be coddled and confined by Hawke's choice during the expedition, then confined again to the Circle wherein she settles down into the status quo. The entire taste of it feels wrong to me.
And consider exactly why Anders bombed the Chantry - to expose the inherent injustice of the circle of magi, to fight for magi liberation.
Wait, how's bombing a temple with people inside, who just came to pray, is exposing the inherent injustice of the Circle? I just can't get it from any angle, no matter how hard I try to look.
He's not blowing the Circle, he's not blowing Templars quarters, he blew a church.
Wait, how's bombing a temple with people inside, who just came to pray, is exposing the inherent injustice of the Circle? I just can't get it from any angle, no matter how hard I try to look.
He's not blowing the Circle, he's not blowing Templars quarters, he blew a church.
Well, the only people that we saw inside were Elthina and templars.
How is an possessed abomination and an blood mage that makes deals with demons "good mages"? They certanly have good intentions, but as the old saying goes, that's what the road to hell is made of. And being an good mage is not about following chantry standards or dalish's or anyone else, being an good mage is simply to refrain from messing with dangerous things that are likely going to get you and other people killed.
Bombing the Chantry exposes nothing, if he wanted to expose the Chantry for their misdeeds, he should work into making the population aware of their various crimes. These are all pretty words, but going around saying mages deserve the same freedoms as the common people is an understatement. Are we to assume every mage will be as responsible as people like Bethany or Wynne? That's one hell of an bet. I agree that mages need the freedom to administrate themselves, but going about thinking that following some righteous cause without seeing the concerns of both sides will likely lead to failure or disaster.
I wouldn't call Anders an abomination nor say that using blood magic or demons excludes a mage from being considered good. And certainly there is too much to gain from blood magic and joining with a spirit to dismiss either out of hand. Would you dismiss grey warden mage use of blood magic to fight darkspawn or Wynne joining with her Spirit? And bombing the Chantry gets necessary attention paid to Circle issues. And I'm rather certain Anders tried inform Kirkwall through his manifesto but in seven to ten years nothing changes. Also, I'd assume it rather difficult to get anyone to listen seriously to apostate anyway. Finally, in a just society - you don't jail someone who hasn't committed a crime. If a mage has committed no crime - they should be free. Liberty is greater concern than security to me.
Ultimately, my dislike for Bethany's story comes down to one of my few Doylist issues with a piece of media, and that is that her story seems to take the "optimum" conclusion by having her be coddled and confined by Hawke's choice during the expedition, then confined again to the Circle wherein she settles down into the status quo. The entire taste of it feels wrong to me.
To me Bethany's story demonstrates that not everyone loyal to the Circle is a quisling that needs to be put down. There are decent people in the Circle, and dare I say, the Templars. People trying (though ultimately failing) to get this flawed system to work as best they can.
Well, the only people that we saw inside were Elthina and templars.
If that's true, all of Kirkwall was populated by maybe fifty people
I wouldn't call Anders an abomination nor say that using blood magic or demons excludes a mage from being considered good. And certainly there is too much to gain from blood magic and joining with a spirit to dismiss either out of hand. Would you dismiss grey warden mage use of blood magic to fight darkspawn or Wynne joining with her Spirit? And bombing the Chantry gets necessary attention paid to Circle issues. And I'm rather certain Anders tried inform Kirkwall through his manifesto but in seven to ten years nothing changes. Also, I'd assume it rather difficult to get anyone to listen seriously to apostate anyway. Finally, in a just society - you don't jail someone who hasn't committed a crime. If a mage has committed no crime - they should be free. Liberty is greater concern than security to me.
Well, let's see, by joining Justice Anders nearly or outright murders an innocent girl, bombs the chantry and kills god knows how many people, either with the explosion or the debris, throw the mages to their deaths by giving the templars an excuse to attack the circle. While Merrill messes with an tainted mirror, learns blood magic from an demon, presses into restoring the Eluvian even when all of the clan say they want nothing to do with it, is willing to risk becoming possessed and turn into an abomination and on top of it all can potentially get the entire clan killed. Again, how are these good things? Because I don't see any. Don't forget that when an grey warden used blood magic to help on the fight against darkspawn, he mercilessly tortured and killed his prisioners just to further his experiments. And as for Wynne, how do we know every joining with an spirit will end up like Wynne? Anders did the same and it ended terribly. It's like playing russian roulette.
Then I'm sorry to say, but I think you don't know what you are doing. Security will aways be an greater concern then liberty. What is liberty's worth if it's used to commit terrible crimes? You think Leandra would have died if Quentin wasn't free? Redcliffe would have burned if Isolde sent Connor away? And what of Uldred, how many more would have died if he was free rather then stuck in the circle? If an ideal costs the avoidable deaths of people, then to me it's not an ideal worth following.
Saying that she deserves it means nothing when she can't get it. Its empty sentiment when it amounts to "you deserve freedom but there's no way you can actually ever get it within this system that I endorse so too bad I guess."
I'd say it's more due to the nature of the people doing the supporting that they support it.
Who said I endorse/support this system? There's lots of middle ground between the status-quo and libertarianism. Bethany is what pushes me away from status-quo. Merrill and Anders, OTOH, are what chuck me away from the libertarian persuasion like a hot potato.
And consider exactly why Anders bombed the Chantry - to expose the inherent injustice of the circle of magi, to fight for magi liberation. He is not waiting for anyone to give mages freedoms - that is a fundamental problem in this and it will never happen anyway.
What Anders thinks or wants does not matter. After he got "Justice"-nonsense in his head he stopped having any good ideas and the Templars should have executed him before he (predictably) killed lots of people in a fit of angsty pique.
Freedom is a right all mages have as men and women and there should not be exceptions for those deemed worthy by society that hates them collectively. Its a repulsive approach
And yet, not as repulsive as the Tevinter Scumperium, where all mages are free on principle as you advocate.
To me Bethany's story demonstrates that not everyone loyal to the Circle is a quisling that needs to be put down. There are decent people in the Circle, and dare I say, the Templars. People trying (though ultimately failing) to get this flawed system to work as best they can.
I cannot, overall, agree. It's a system whose glaring flaws were visible long ago, and I see those people who still cling to it as being, ultimately, blind. Some things simply cannot be made to work.
Who said I endorse/support this system? There's lots of middle ground between the status-quo and libertarianism. Bethany is what pushes me away from status-quo. Merrill and Anders, OTOH, are what chuck me from the libertarian persuasion like a hot potato.
I remain libertarian, at least as far as the current Templar Order is concerned.
Well, let's see, by joining Justice Anders nearly or outright murders an innocent girl, bombs the chantry and kills god knows how many people, either with the explosion or the debris, throw the mages to their deaths by giving the templars an excuse to attack the circle. While Merrill messes with an tainted mirror, learns blood magic from an demon, presses into restoring the Eluvian even when all of the clan say they want nothing to do with it, is willing to risk becoming possessed and turn into an abomination and on top of it all can potentially get the entire clan killed. Again, how are these good things? Because I don't see any. Don't forget that when an grey warden used blood magic to help on the fight against darkspawn, he mercilessly tortured and killed his prisioners just to further his experiments. And as for Wynne, how do we know every joining with an spirit will end up like Wynne? Anders did the same and it ended terribly. It's like playing russian roulette.
Then I'm sorry to say, but I think you don't know what you are doing. Security will aways be an greater concern then liberty. What is liberty's worth if it's used to commit terrible crimes? You think Leandra would have died if Quentin wasn't free? Redcliffe would have burned if Isolde sent Connor away? And what of Uldred, how many more would have died if he was free rather then stuck in the circle? If an ideal costs the avoidable deaths of people, then to me it's not an ideal worth following.
Taking issue with Anders' or Merrill's actions is something separate from condemning joining with a spirit, dealing with a demon, or blood magic use - and you presented the latter as inherently bad in your earlier post. And I don't consider Anders an abomination because he isn't mindless. His joining with a spirit wasn't as smooth as Wynne's but that isn't something that could have been predicted and the benefits of joining with Justice can be argued as having been greater than a possible bad outcome and thus worth attempting. I don't see anything Merrill did as wrong and you can avoid killing the clan. Also, Quentin was mad and not someone that should be unsupervised - and though magic was a tool he used to kill he could have killed and carried on with his plan without magic. Isolde keeping Connor from the Circle justifies how damaging the system and the culture around it actually is, and I'm not suggesting mages go untrained in life. And Uldred is in large part a product of circle oppression. Without a circle of magi to cage him perhaps he never would have turned to demons or blood magic at all. And what is security's worth if your society is not free? I agree with Isabela when she says "Its not about who's dangerous. Its about having choices made for you."
Fenris: So I hear you think mages should be free.
Isabela: Everyone should be free. Not just mages.
Fenris: Not everyone's dangerous.
Isabela: It's not about who's dangerous. It's about having choices made for you.
I remain libertarian, at least as far as the current Templar Order is concerned.
And I believe that those who do not have any better ideas should keep their mouths shut.
So, what are your better ideas? Keep in mind that apart from making mage libertarians happy (which is not an important issue in the least bit), you also have these potential problems that need stable solutions: giving mages proper training, mitigating the damage of demonic-possession, ensuring that law-enforcement groups are equipped to rein in criminal mage groups or individuals (potentially armed with Blood Magic).
Good luck.
What Anders thinks or wants does not matter. After he got "Justice"-nonsense in his head he stopped having any good ideas and the Templars should have executed him before he (predictably) killed lots of people in a fit of angsty pique.
And I flat out disagree.
Who said I endorse/support this system? There's lots of middle ground between the status-quo and libertarianism. Bethany is what pushes me away from status-quo. Merrill and Anders, OTOH, are what chuck me away from the libertarian persuasion like a hot potato.
I have strong doubts that any middle ground will work successfully for very long now. The only middle ground solution that I really like is Xil's.
And yet, not as repulsive as the Tevinter Scumperium, where all mages are free on principle as you advocate.
Mage liberty does not automatically spell Tevinter. And Tevinter's operation is tied up in a "might makes right" culture, so while magic is a factor in Tevinter government, bad ethics is the real culprit in Tevinter societal injustice. A magi government is not inherently bad either.
Taking issue with Anders' or Merrill's actions is something separate from condemning joining with a spirit, dealing with a demon, or blood magic use - and you presented the latter as inherently bad in your earlier post. And I don't consider Anders an abomination because he isn't mindless. His joining with a spirit wasn't as smooth as Wynne's but that isn't something that could have been predicted and the benefits of joining with Justice can be argued as having been greater than a possible bad outcome and thus worth attempting. I don't see anything Merrill did as nothing wrong and you can avoid killing the clan. Also, Quentin was mad and not someone that should be free - and magic was a tool he used to kill but he could have killed and carried on with his plan without magic. Isolde keeping Connor from the Circle justifies how damaging it actually is and I'm not suggesting mages go untrained in life. And Uldred is in large part a product of circle oppression. Without a circle of magi to cage him perhaps he never would have turned to demons or blood magic at all. And what is security's worth if your society is not free? I agree with Isabela when she says "Its not about who's dangerous. Its about having choices made for you."
Fenris: So I hear you think mages should be free.
Isabela: Everyone should be free. Not just mages.
Fenris: Not everyone's dangerous.
Isabela: It's not about who's dangerous. It's about having choices made for you.
To add to it here's Merrill said:
"Magic can't be made safe and it can't be destroyed, fear is more powerful than magic ever could."
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