148 réponses à ce sujet

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

And if you were a mage, you would find it perfectly okay for the templars to kill you on the off chance that you might be an abomination or that you might use blood magic against them? Even in DA2 Cullen is in favor of releasing three mages that could be blood mages but because they have not made a threatening move toward the templars he wants them let go. Its a risk the templars must take. You don't kill people on maybes.

This wasn't during the Ferelden Annulment, though. During the Ferelden Annulment, things really were bad enough that anything in the Tower might be an abomination. The Kirkwall Annulment on the other hand was just a complete farce from the beginning, which was the whole point of Anders causing it.

 

Not even Ferelden's Circle had reached that point. And not only are subtle demons practically nonexistent, even the ones who are subtle can be detected relatively easily, via blood tests or harmless attacks.

Any demon smart enough to do this at all is just a hair short of being smart enough to keep the bluff up through a minor attack. As for the blood test, is this meant to be administered by a mage? Because if you can get your hands on a trustworthy mage the situation probably isn't bad enough that I'd argue an Annulment can be justified.

[lil yonce]

This wasn't during the Ferelden Annulment, though. During the Ferelden Annulment, things really were bad enough that anything in the Tower might be an abomination. The Kirkwall Annulment on the other hand was just a complete farce from the beginning, which was the whole point of Anders causing it.

Again, you don't kill people on maybes. And Meredith believes the three mages that surrendered should be executed for possible blood magic IIRC.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Again, you don't kill people on maybes. And Meredith believes the three mages that surrendered should be executed for possible blood magic IIRC.

I'm more than willing to agree that "maybe this someone is a blood mage" is a crap reason to kill someone. I'd argue, however, that "maybe someone is an uberpowered demon mage, and also we don't have anyone who knows the spell to know" is a slightly better one, at least in the context of there definitely being enough running around that anyone could be one.

 

Bit relevant to this conversation that only just occurred to me: a demon can leave its host temporarily in order to thrown others off the scent. Cullen even notes this possibility if you save Irving and get the Annulment canceled. He's wrong in this case, as far as we know, but he's right that it can happen.

[Steelcan]

Enough, clearly, to form a small army to go to Denerim.

 

 

Not even Ferelden's Circle had reached that point. And not only are subtle demons practically nonexistent, even the ones who are subtle can be detected relatively easily, via blood tests or harmless attacks.

iirc Wynne mentions that they are pulling mages from other Circles to make up the numbers

 

Amalia's father couldn't tell his own daughter had been possessed, they are not easy to detect

[lil yonce]

I'm more than willing to agree that "maybe someone is a blood mage" is a crap reason to kill someone. I'd argue, however, that "maybe someone is an uberpowered demon mage, and also we don't have anyone who knows the spell to know" is a slightly better one.

When you don't have even a shred of evidence to support a case for possession there is nothing that warrants death. And being in the wrong place at the wrong time is not sufficient evidence. I would require the highest standard for conviction on earth - beyond a reasonable doubt - and that the mage prove threatening first.

[Steelcan]

When you don't have even a shred of evidence to support a case for possession there is nothing that warrants death. And being in the wrong place at the wrong time is not sufficient evidence. I would require the highest standard for death - beyond a reasonable doubt - and that the mage prove threatening first.

being a blood mage is illegal, punishable by death, possession isn't even needed

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

being a blood mage is illegal, punishable by death, possession isn't even needed

I will note that in the case Yonce is citing with the mages Cullen wanted to spare, Meredith had pretty crap evidence for that too.

 

 

When you don't have even a shred of evidence to support a case for possession there is nothing that warrants death. And being in the wrong place at the wrong time is not sufficient evidence. I would require the highest standard for conviction on earth - beyond a reasonable doubt - and that the mage prove threatening first.

That's usually the way I think too. However, situations like the Circle in Ferelden, where there are demons possessing just about everyone even down to the Tranquil, I'd argue that things get a bit murkier. I don't even view criminal courts as a valid comparison. I view this as a person being potentially being infected with an utterly horrible virus that is so dangerous that quarantine isn't an option. If that can be tested for, great, but simply punching them seems like it'd net false positives and might get false negatives with the most dangerous demons. If you can use magic to do a better test, great, but if you have enough mages available to make this a viable option then what you're dealing with probably isn't the sort of situation I'd argue justifies an Annulment.

[Xilizhra]

Any demon smart enough to do this at all is just a hair short of being smart enough to keep the bluff up through a minor attack. As for the blood test, is this meant to be administered by a mage? Because if you can get your hands on a trustworthy mage the situation probably isn't bad enough that I'd argue an Annulment can be justified.

Anders implied that it was a reflex action. As for the mage thing, all you'd need to do is get help from a different Circle.

 

Better to just close down the possibility of Annulment altogether.

 

 

iirc Wynne mentions that they are pulling mages from other Circles to make up the numbers

 

Amalia's father couldn't tell his own daughter had been possessed, they are not easy to detect

Amalia's father wasn't a mage; they're easy to detect if you know what to look for. As for the first sentence, citation needed.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

As for the mage thing, all you'd need to do is get help from a different Circle.

If you can be entirely certain that you both have enough time to wait for those mages, and enough Templars free to keep the person under constant guard while waiting for them to arrive, the situation probably isn't bad enough that I'd argue an Annulment was justified.

[Xilizhra]

If you can be entirely certain that you both have enough time to wait for those mages, and enough Templars free to keep the person under constant guard while waiting for them to arrive, the situation probably isn't bad enough that I'd argue an Annulment was justified.

Then I don't see how it ever could be. Though I eschew the idea that killing someone who only might be possessed is justifiable either.

 

Of course, this leads to another good idea on my part, which is: always have a few mages in reserve outside the main Circle, ones who've proven their ability to leave.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Then I don't see how it ever could be. Though I eschew the idea that killing someone who only might be possessed is justifiable either.

 

Of course, this leads to another good idea on my part, which is: always have a few mages in reserve outside the main Circle, ones who've proven their ability to leave.

Take a moment to contemplate how many days it would take for a mage to travel from one Circle to another, and how many men it would take to contain an abomination. (I'm not talking about the drunken brutes that you can kill with no sweat, I'm talking the lore-friendly ones like Connor or Uldred.) Then multiply the number of men you need by the number of different shifts that would need to be set up over those few days lest they fall asleep in front of their charge, and subtract it and the number of Templars needed to keep the door at Kinloch Hold shut from however many Templars are in Kinloch Hold. And that's assuming that there's only one mage smart enough to surrender. I strongly doubt that you have any exact numbers in that equation, but the point is to get across just what you're asking the Templars to risk. Not as far as their own lives; I agree that those take a backseat. I meant the risk as far as the demon getting past them and maybe swimming through Lake Calenhad to find someone even less capable of taking on an abomination. Or, even worse, that the Templars might lose completely, and then every single demon in the Circle is running loose. This is probably why prisoners aren't taken when things get bad enough.

 

It's only if you have mages outside the Circle in very easy reach (as per your other suggestion) that what you desire becomes a feasible response to a situation that is the worst it can get, and come to think of it even then you're seriously risking the mages who you know for a fact are innocent and already saved to protect mages who may or may not even be salvageable anymore.

[Iakus]

 

Of course, this leads to another good idea on my part, which is: always have a few mages in reserve outside the main Circle, ones who've proven their ability to leave.

They already have that.  Wynne was one of them, remember.

[lil yonce]

That's usually the way I think too. However, situations like the Circle in Ferelden, where there are demons possessing just about everyone even down to the Tranquil, I'd argue that things get a bit murkier. I don't even view criminal courts as a valid comparison. I view this as a person being potentially infected with an utterly horrible virus that is so dangerous that quarantine isn't an option. If that can be tested for, great, but simply punching them seems like it'd net false positives and might get false negatives with the most dangerous demons. If you can use magic to do a better test, great, but if you have enough mages available to make this a viable option then what you're dealing with probably isn't the sort of situation I'd argue justifies an Annulment.

I cannot agree that its ever okay to kill people who are very possibly free of possession. And I've stated I'm on the side of liberty over security. The first priority of a circle should always be its mages.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I cannot agree that its ever okay to kill people who are very possibly free of possession. And I've stated I'm on the side of liberty over security. The first priority of a circle should always be its mages.

The first priority of anyone who deals with anything as dangerous as magic and abominations should be making sure that anything capable of soloing Redcliffe stays among beings with at least some ability to defend themselves from it.

[lil yonce]

The first priority of anyone who deals with anything as dangerous as magic and abominations should be making sure that anything capable of soloing Redcliffe stays among beings with at least some ability to defend themselves from it.

These kinds of differences of opinion most often lead to wars - and so now that the mage-templar war is on, I say, "let it come. It is in vain to extenuate the matter. Gentlemen may cry, Peace, Peace, but there is no peace."

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

These kinds of difference of opinion most often lead to wars - and so now that the mage-templar war is on, I say, "let it come. It is in vain to extenuate the matter. Gentlemen may cry, Peace, Peace, but there is no peace."

Unless Bioware's instituting PvP, I don't know how you expect me to go to war with you.

[lil yonce]

Unless Bioware's instituting PvP, I don't know how you expect me to go to war with you.

lol. No, I mean, let the war come and decide which viewpoint prevails.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

lol. No, I mean, let the war come and decide which viewpoint prevails.

In the absence of PvP, we both win.

[lil yonce]

In the absence of PvP, we both win.

Only the mages will win in my game, but what are you looking to do in DAI? Compromise or pick a side?

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Only the mages will win in my game, but what are you looking to do in DAI? Compromise or pick a side?

I'm more into a compromise. Any amount and kind of chaos can happen when the mages are allowed to police themselves, but at the same time, we've seen the twisted orders that unpoliced Templars might create and enforce.

[lil yonce]

I'm more into a compromise. Any amount and kind of chaos can happen when the mages are allowed to police themselves, but at the same time, we've seen the twisted orders that unpoliced Templars might create and enforce.

I consider a mage win to be a triumph of liberty over security, but maybe a compromise under the same principle can work. Doubtful, but maybe.

[Jaison1986]

I'm more into a compromise. Any amount and kind of chaos can happen when the mages are allowed to police themselves, but at the same time, we've seen the twisted orders that unpoliced Templars might create and enforce.

 

As much as pro order I might be, I think compromise is futile. If possible, I would prefer to get rid of the templars permanently and replace them with an group that is more resonable. That's what they did with the first inquisition, right? Once they restored order, it's members broke into the templar order and the seekers of truth. I don't see why the current Inquisition can't do the same.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

As much as pro order I might be, I think compromise is futile. If possible, I would prefer to get rid of the templars permanently and replace them with an group that is more resonable. That's what they did with the first inquisition, right? Once they restored order, it's members broke into the templar order and the seekers of truth. I don't see why the current Inquisition can't do the same.

The Templars are still getting a large part of what they want as long as the mages are in the Circles and guarded, aren't they? Besides, I get the feeling that a lot of the Inquisitor's soldiers are ex-Templars, which would probably mean that as long as the Inquisitor creates something and orders his soldiers to guard it, we're getting what we want: someone besides the Templars, but with the same powers they have, watching Circles.

[Hellion Rex]

Amalia's father wasn't a mage; they're easy to detect if you know what to look for. As for the first sentence, citation needed.

Uh, yes he was, cause he lowered a barrier spell if you helped go get his daughter.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Uh, yes he was, cause he lowered a barrier spell if you helped go get his daughter.

He states that he "had the key" for the barrier. I suppose he could be referring to a spell, but it just seems like that wording would make more sense if he were referring to a magical artifact.