148 réponses à ce sujet

[KC_Prototype]

As I've said before, my big problem is that Hawke doesn't do anything about Bethany being taken.
 
The scene also wasn't clear on whether Bethany volunteered to go to the Circle or if she was caught during the expedition? How did she get caught? Did someone betray Bethany to the templars? Did Bethany heal an injured kitten and Cullen saw it?
 
It's also weirder because Hawke had earlier slaughtered an entire platoon of templars in order to save some strangers and yet doesn't try to do anything for his own sister. If Hawke killed Cullen and his few guards, who would know? Kirkwall is so chaotic that templars could be killed by bandits or city guard imposters. Considering all of the friends that Hawke now has, who would sell him out to Meredith (who everyone hates)? How about using diplomacy and pointing out that Hawke has saved Cullen's life and that of his men (Bethany could have helped as well) and have Cullen look the other way to settle their debt?
 
Circle Bethany would have been interesting, but instead it comes off as forced drama. At least with templar Cullen, the game provides reasoning for why he'd join the order and it's made clear that he's signing up of his own free will. Plus, it speaks volumes that Cullen never once sold out his brother/sister during his tenure as a templar.

Well she was carrying a staff on her back so....

[KC_Prototype]

I agree with the OP. On my canon Hawke, I sent Bethany away with the Grey Wardens and was sad to not see her as much. I role played as the big brother that would always protect his little sister and My Hawke thought she better off as Grey Warden free then locked in a tower with Templars. But he didn't know how miserable she was until he saw her and felt bad. I will have to have a play through with Bethany as a circle Mage.

[Xilizhra]

Take a moment to contemplate how many days it would take for a mage to travel from one Circle to another, and how many men it would take to contain an abomination. (I'm not talking about the drunken brutes that you can kill with no sweat, I'm talking the lore-friendly ones like Connor or Uldred.) Then multiply the number of men you need by the number of different shifts that would need to be set up over those few days lest they fall asleep in front of their charge, and subtract it and the number of Templars needed to keep the door at Kinloch Hold shut from however many Templars are in Kinloch Hold. And that's assuming that there's only one mage smart enough to surrender. I strongly doubt that you have any exact numbers in that equation, but the point is to get across just what you're asking the Templars to risk. Not as far as their own lives; I agree that those take a backseat. I meant the risk as far as the demon getting past them and maybe swimming through Lake Calenhad to find someone even less capable of taking on an abomination. Or, even worse, that the Templars might lose completely, and then every single demon in the Circle is running loose. This is probably why prisoners aren't taken when things get bad enough.

 

It's only if you have mages outside the Circle in very easy reach (as per your other suggestion) that what you desire becomes a feasible response to a situation that is the worst it can get, and come to think of it even then you're seriously risking the mages who you know for a fact are innocent and already saved to protect mages who may or may not even be salvageable anymore.

I find this "lore-friendly abomination" thing to be extremely sketchy. If abominations really are all boss-level power, than either there were far fewer abominations in the Circle in lore than there were in-game and mages don't get possessed that often at all, or the Warden's party are unstoppable war gods to the extent that no human should ever be a challenge for them, and given that Alistair at least doesn't have that level of prowess in the comics and Leliana gets captured by the Venatori, I find that unlikely too.

 

Even if we assume that it is true, I don't exactly see the problem. Kill everyone gribbly or who attacks you, then keep the others under supervision until they can be tested. I doubt the number of soldiers to contain an abomination will be higher than the number of soldiers to clear out a whole tower. Although this discussion did give me the idea to always build Circle buildings in pairs, so if one building becomes demonically compromised, another can remain safe.

Also, Connor didn't solo Redcliffe; he had a whole army of possessed corpses. That's the kind of thing that can gradually build up without an overwhelming amount of power on the demon's side.

[Hellion Rex]

I find this "lore-friendly abomination" thing to be extremely sketchy. If abominations really are all boss-level power, than either there were far fewer abominations in the Circle in lore than there were in-game and mages don't get possessed that often at all, or the Warden's party are unstoppable war gods to the extent that no human should ever be a challenge for them, and given that Alistair at least doesn't have that level of prowess in the comics and Leliana gets captured by the Venatori, I find that unlikely too.

 

Even if we assume that it is true, I don't exactly see the problem. Kill everyone gribbly or who attacks you, then keep the others under supervision until they can be tested. I doubt the number of soldiers to contain an abomination will be higher than the number of soldiers to clear out a whole tower. Although this discussion did give me the idea to always build Circle buildings in pairs, so if one building becomes demonically compromised, another can remain safe.

Also, Connor didn't solo Redcliffe; he had a whole army of possessed corpses. That's the kind of thing that can gradually build up without an overwhelming amount of power on the demon's side.

But how do we test those that are under supervision? An upper level demon could probably hide in plain sight to avoid detection.

[Xilizhra]

But how do we test those that are under supervision? An upper level demon could probably hide in plain sight to avoid detection.

Given how quickly Greagoir of all people dismissed Cullen's claim that that might be the case, I doubt that this is much of a real danger. In any case, we can just use Merrill's technique of testing blood.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I find this "lore-friendly abomination" thing to be extremely sketchy. If abominations really are all boss-level power, than either there were far fewer abominations in the Circle in lore than there were in-game and mages don't get possessed that often at all, or the Warden's party are unstoppable war gods to the extent that no human should ever be a challenge for them, and given that Alistair at least doesn't have that level of prowess in the comics and Leliana gets captured by the Venatori, I find that unlikely too.

 

Even if we assume that it is true, I don't exactly see the problem. Kill everyone gribbly or who attacks you, then keep the others under supervision until they can be tested. I doubt the number of soldiers to contain an abomination will be higher than the number of soldiers to clear out a whole tower. Although this discussion did give me the idea to always build Circle buildings in pairs, so if one building becomes demonically compromised, another can remain safe.

Also, Connor didn't solo Redcliffe; he had a whole army of possessed corpses. That's the kind of thing that can gradually build up without an overwhelming amount of power on the demon's side.

Mages don't get possessed that often. Even the Chantry admits that. If they did the setting would probably be completely nonviable.

 

As for the power level of abominations, while they're not all as powerful as Connor or Uldred (their cooresponding demons were approaching the heights of power as far as demons get according to the original codex, and while Connor's human half was substandard Uldred was a Senior Enchanter) the fact remains that they're all magic capable. The abominations we see charging at the player and attacking with their claws are far less lore-friendly than the two bosses. (Which, to some degree, means that the party really is a bunch of indestructible war-gods. Either that, or they fight a lot more intelligently in the lore than they do in-game.)

 

Also, you missed my problem with keeping mages prisoner: it's not that you need to keep a potential-abomination prisoner, or that you need to have more men to keep this one prisoner than you needed to clear the Tower at all. It's that you'll almost certainly need to keep several prisoner, and that you probably won't have a chance to finish clearing the Tower before you need to start taking prisoners. Which means that for every mage you take prisoner, there's a small army of men who aren't fighting the demons, and then another small army of men who can't fight the demons because they need to be alert and ready to put down an abomination if necessary so that the last group can catch some sleep. Unless we presuppose an unlimited number of Templars, this is going to get to be a problem. Bear in mind that Gregoir states that his army was deemed sufficient for "one or two abominations, not the whole horde that descended upon [them.]"

 

As for Connor having an army of lesser demons, I was counting those as part of Connor's demon due to the fact that he was responsible for their presence, as well as the fact that all demons who actually pose a threat seem to have them.

[Xilizhra]

Mages don't get possessed that often. Even the Chantry admits that. If they did the setting would probably be completely nonviable.

 

As for the power level of abominations, while they're not all as powerful as Connor or Uldred (their cooresponding demons were approaching the heights of power as far as demons get according to the original codex, and while Connor's human half was substandard Uldred was a Senior Enchanter) the fact remains that they're all magic capable. The abominations we see charging at the player and attacking with their claws are far less lore-friendly than the two bosses. (Which, to some degree, means that the party really is a bunch of indestructible war-gods. Either that, or they fight a lot more intelligently in the lore than they do in-game.)

 

Also, you missed my problem with keeping mages prisoner: it's not that you need to keep a potential-abomination prisoner, or that you need to have more men to keep this one prisoner than you needed to clear the Tower at all. It's that you'll almost certainly need to keep several prisoner, and that you probably won't have a chance to finish clearing the Tower before you need to start taking prisoners. Which means that for every mage you take prisoner, there's a small army of men who aren't fighting the demons, and then another small army of men who can't fight the demons because they need to be alert and ready to put down an abomination if necessary so that the last group can catch some sleep. Unless we presuppose an unlimited number of Templars, this is going to get to be a problem. Bear in mind that Gregoir states that his army was deemed sufficient for "one or two abominations, not the whole horde that descended upon [them.]"

 

As for Connor having an army of lesser demons, I was counting those as part of Connor's demon due to the fact that he was responsible for their presence, as well as the fact that all demons who actually pose a threat seem to have them.

If they need to kick recruitment up a notch to have enough people to safeguard the people explicitly in their care, let it be done. In any case, you can do very swift testing if you bring your own mage in, in a protected position within the larger army, rather than waiting until after the operation is done.

[Steelcan]

Amalia's father wasn't a mage; they're easy to detect if you know what to look for. As for the first sentence, citation needed.

He did have some magical ability as we see when he takes down the barrier protecting himself and the others from Darkspawn

 

If you do not carry out the Annulment Wynne will still say that they need to draw mages from other circles to replenish the numbers

[Xilizhra]

He did have some magical ability as we see when he takes down the barrier protecting himself and the others from Darkspawn

 

If you do not carry out the Annulment Wynne will still say that they need to draw mages from other circles to replenish the numbers

Again, citation needed on the latter. Preferably video. On the former, it could also mean that he has a magical item; this seems more likely, really, given that it's referred to as a key.

[Steelcan]

Again, citation needed on the latter. Preferably video. On the former, it could also mean that he has a magical item; this seems more likely, really, given that it's referred to as a key.

I have better things to do than dig through all of Wynne's dialogue that most LP'ers won't even see

 

He didn't use a physical object to take down the barrier

[Xilizhra]

I have better things to do than dig through all of Wynne's dialogue that most LP'ers won't even see

 

He didn't use a physical object to take down the barrier

Wasn't Hawke's Key too small to be seen until it was extended into a weapon? And it's just as likely that the "key" is his bloodline as it is a spell, since he never mentions being a mage at all.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

If they need to kick recruitment up a notch to have enough people to safeguard the people explicitly in their care, let it be done. In any case, you can do very swift testing if you bring your own mage in, in a protected position within the larger army, rather than waiting until after the operation is done.

Kick recruitment up a notch? I still don't think I'm impressing on you the sheer scale of the numbers that seem to be necessary to handle an abomination, much less an army of them. Besides, the usual numbers are almost always enough. Annulments only occur once every few decades (before things get crazy starting in 9:30 Dragon), and in addition the only Annulment we've heard of that actually meets the Godzilla Threshold level of danger that they're supposed to be used to counter was the one in Ferelden; the other ones we know of in any detail seem to have been abuses of power to protect the power of the Templar Order.

 

Wasn't Hawke's Key too small to be seen until it was extended into a weapon? And it's just as likely that the "key" is his bloodline as it is a spell, since he never mentions being a mage at all.

Though again, the wording just really seems like it would best fit a magical artifact.

[Xilizhra]

 

Kick recruitment up a notch? I still don't think I'm impressing on you the sheer scale of the numbers that seem to be necessary to handle an abomination, much less an army of them. Besides, the usual numbers are almost always enough. Annulments only occur once every few decades (before things get crazy starting in 9:30 Dragon), and in addition the only Annulment we've heard of that actually meets the Godzilla Threshold level of danger that they're supposed to be used to counter was the one in Ferelden; the other ones we know of in any detail seem to have been abuses of power to protect the power of the Templar Order.

Well, you just said that greater numbers would be necessary if they weren't going to go murdering every mage in the Circle on the off-chance one would be an abomination. But I suppose you're right that I'm not seeing why there's such a problem with numbers if they already have an army of templars waiting to take on an army of abominations... and then, mages can still be tested for if you bring another mage along with you properly.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Well, you just said that greater numbers would be necessary if they weren't going to go murdering every mage in the Circle on the off-chance one would be an abomination. But I suppose you're right that I'm not seeing why there's such a problem with numbers if they already have an army of templars waiting to take on an army of abominations... and then, mages can still be tested for if you bring another mage along with you properly.

What I was trying to get across was that given how dangerous abominations are supposed to be, judging by Gregoir, the Codex, and Word Of Gaider, you're just not going to be able to take on an army of abominations and screen innocents at the same time. Doing either of these is already immensely dangerous and requires large numbers of Templars.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Something that I've stated multiple times.

 

I'm fine with the Circle rejoining the Chantry provided Annulment and involuntary Tranquility are banned, those with templar abilities come under the authority of individual Circles and not the Chantry (the Seekers can be the Chantry's police; it's a multitier system akin to the difference in America between city/state police and the FBI), and mages have fair representation within the Chantry's government if the Chantry is to govern them.

 

You'll have to bear with me since I'm not usually part of these discussions. I do not exist simply to prove that I'm right and say that those who disagree are wrong. I try to take other opinions into account, since they may have good points that I haven't considered and could change my stance a bit.

 

As to your post, what of mages who reject the Circle and choose to be apostates? What of Blood Magic?

[Xilizhra]

What I was trying to get across was that given how dangerous abominations are supposed to be, judging by Gregoir, the Codex, and Word Of Gaider, you're just not going to be able to take on an army of abominations and screen innocents at the same time. Doing either of these is already immensely dangerous and requires large numbers of Templars.

The numbers issue has entered territory so vague that I'll have to give up at this point because neither of us will have a clear idea of the requirements. But I still don't see how rapidly screening innocents with the aforementioned blood test is really all that dangerous or time-consuming.

 

 

You'll have to bear with me since I'm not usually part of these discussions. I do not exist simply to prove that I'm right and say that those who disagree are wrong. I try to take other opinions into account, since they may have good points that I haven't considered and could change my stance a bit.

 

As to your post, what of mages who reject the Circle and choose to be apostates? What of Blood Magic?

Then you're in good company, as my stance has changed as well.

 

Mages will be allowed, if they so choose, to forsake preexisting ties and join the Dalish. Obviously, this is only likely to work with elven mages. For everyone else, those who wish to speak up about problems with the Circle and why said problems would make them want to leave would be allowed to be heard. If they're just being intransigent, we yank them back in and inform them that this can lead to rapid loss of privileges.

As for blood magic... I'll need to think more on how the regulation of that will be handled. I don't want to ban it outright, just have it be restricted to the most able to handle it, so it'll be a delicate situation.

[KaiserShep]

Lol the Dalish, the backwater folk that are keen on shooting intruders on sight.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

The numbers issue has entered territory so vague that I'll have to give up at this point because neither of us will have a clear idea of the requirements. But I still don't see how rapidly screening innocents with the aforementioned blood test is really all that dangerous or time-consuming.

You've already figured out how to make it less time-consuming, so that's no longer my real objection. As for the other problem screening innocents won't be dangerous. A word, a gesture, and maybe a slashed palm if the spell requires it, and they're done. It's the abominations that might blow people the hell up before or after the tests.

 

I just wanted to repeat that this risk can be worth it, if there's one or two potential abominations. If the middlingly-large group of Templars and the examining mage get blown up by an abomination, the whole rest of the Tower now knows there's something wrong and can deal with it. (And this is assuming they lose. They may not.) But if every mage is in danger and possibly already lost, and every Templar available is needed to deal with it? That's where mercy becomes a problem.

[Xilizhra]

Screening innocents won't be. A word, a gesture, and maybe a slashed palm if the spell requires it, and they're done. It's the abominations that might blow people the hell up before or after the tests.

Well, we're here to kill abominations anyway, and if they don't know about the test, we can stab them ideally before they can transform.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 Here's the issue I have with abolishing the RoA...

 

Say there's an outbreak in the Circle and all the obvious demons and abominations are slain, leaving behind only normal-looking mages. Some of them may could be corrupted, and there's no (reliable) way to tell. And in arguing with myself I say, "self, that's what the Circle is for, to contain the damage within the walls of the institution and away from the general populace." Okay, but say you spare them all and there's another outbreak. Isn't that worse? Two cases of demons and blood-magic (and another and another and...) would surely kill more mages than one annulment.

 

Here's the bad thing about RoA which I think is pretty obvious to everyone: you may kill innocent/untainted mages in the process. Here's the good thing about the RoA which I think is not so obvious: collective punishment is very effective, in a number of ways. As a Circle mage, you may not care much for the Templars, but odds are high you will care for your fellow mages (people typically always like others who are like themselves). So the threat of the RoA is a very compelling reason to not try anything stupid -- you could end up getting all of your friends killed. If you know or suspect corruption of other mages, you may not say anything because they're your friends or you just don't feel comfortable doing so (common issue with things like academic dishonesty). But, if the threat of the RoA exists, you will have a big incentive to report it before it gets out of hand to the point where the Templars would suspect widespread corruption and then gain authorization to kill you and everyone else.

 

The RoA really exists to deter Circle inhabitants from seeing it used, I think, which in turn nips the causes for RoA (demons, blood-magic) in the bud. It's not simply about killing everyone.

[Xilizhra]

 Here's the issue I have with abolishing the RoA...

 

Say there's an outbreak in the Circle and all the obvious demons and abominations are slain, leaving behind only normal-looking mages. Some of them may could be corrupted, and there's no (reliable) way to tell. And in arguing with myself I say, "self, that's what the Circle is for, to contain the damage within the walls of the institution and away from the general populace." Okay, but say you spare them all and there's another outbreak. Isn't that worse? Two cases of demons and blood-magic (and another and another and...) would surely kill more mages than one annulment.

There are reliable ways to tell.

 

 

Here's the bad thing about RoA which I think is pretty obvious to everyone: you may kill innocent/untainted mages in the process. Here's the good thing about the RoA which I think is not so obvious: collective punishment is very effective, in a number of ways. As a Circle mage, you may not care much for the Templars, but odds are high you will care for your fellow mages (people typically always like others who are like themselves). So the threat of the RoA is a very compelling reason to not try anything stupid -- you could end up getting all of your friends killed. If you know or suspect corruption of other mages, you may not say anything because they're your friends or you just don't feel comfortable doing so (common issue with things like academic dishonesty). But, if the threat of the RoA exists, you will have a big incentive to report it before it gets out of hand to the point where the Templars would suspect widespread corruption and then gain authorization to kill you and everyone else.

 

The RoA really exists to deter Circle inhabitants from seeing it used, I think, which in turn nips the causes for RoA (demons, blood-magic) in the bud. It's not simply about killing everyone.

It's still horribly unjust and I would still abolish it were I capable.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

There are reliable ways to tell.

 

 

It's still horribly unjust and I would still abolish it were I capable.

 

The Anders/Merrill methods? Those are not common-knowledge. And because they aren't, we cannot say that they truly are reliable since we're working with a sample size of 1.

 

With Anders, it's really unclear what he did. Was it some catch-all spell? If so, you'd think other mages would know about it and the concern about demons would not be a big issue. Or, maybe it something that was only available to him courtesy Justice (takes one to know one, indeed). Keeping an abomination to help you detect abominations though is pretty self-defeating.

 

I think it worked for the same reason Cullen inadvertently got Wilmod to reveal himself -- the target has to think the threats are genuine for the demon to try and defend its host. So basically the solution would be to torture mages 'til we're sure they're okay. But if a corrupted mage knows to expect that, will it even work? Stick it out for a while and you'll be released. To compensate for that, do you make the torture genuinely life-threatening and risk death? If they're not housing a demon in the first place, well, then you've tortured an innocent person. Or killed them, if you have an accident. At what point is all this not worth the trouble?

 

Merrill sniffs some blood. Drug tests IRL aren't even 100% reliable with blood-samples, and those are being read by machines. Having some person sniff it opens the door to human error. For one thing, you may not have the luxury of having someone around who knows what smell is "wrong." It may not even be doable for human, for all we know (maybe elves have stronger olfactory senses). Even if you do have that guy, there may be things that interfere and result in false positives. Like, would Warden blood smell wrong? Perhaps they have something in their bloodstream at the time that makes it smell funky, in the same vein that consuming something as innocuous as poppy seeds can raise red-flags for things like heroin.

 

Unless it can be proven that these tests are perfect and fool-proof, which virtually nothing ever is, then you are still accepting the risk of executing innocent, untainted mages by using them.

[Darkly Tranquil]

He didn't use a physical object to take down the barrier

Spoiler

Matthias says (starting at 12:15): I knew about the barrier, I had the key for that, but the rest of it...

It's possible he's talking about a spell "key", but a physical key (in the form of something like a runestone) seems the more likely. Otherwise, why wouldn't he just say , "I knew how to control/dispel that" instead of using the very specific word "key"? That fact that he does not appear to be holding an object is most likely the result of the art team cutting corners on something they never would have thought would matter.

[Xilizhra]

The Anders/Merrill methods? Those are not common-knowledge. And because they aren't, we cannot say that they truly are reliable since we're working with a sample size of 1.

 

With Anders, it's really unclear what he did. Was it some catch-all spell? If so, you'd think other mages would know about it and the concern about demons would not be a big issue. Or, maybe it something that was only available to him courtesy Justice (takes one to know one, indeed). Keeping an abomination to help you detect abominations though is pretty self-defeating.

It's entirely possible that the reason other mages haven't used this more often is because the Circle system ensures that all mages are crammed into one place, hence are all potentially compromised (although, again, it's extraordinarily unlikely that they'll be able to hide) in the event of a demonic cascade. And if it's Anders-specific, Wynne would be able to do something similar, and she's perfectly safe.

 

 

I think it worked for the same reason Cullen inadvertently got Wilmod to reveal himself -- the target has to think the threats are genuine for the demon to try and defend its host. So basically the solution would be to torture mages 'til we're sure they're okay. But if a corrupted mage knows to expect that, will it even work? Stick it out for a while and you'll be released. To compensate for that, do you make the torture genuinely life-threatening and risk death? If they're not housing a demon in the first place, well, then you've tortured an innocent person. Or killed them, if you have an accident. At what point is all this not worth the trouble?

Unlikely. Keran was surprised, but didn't act as though Anders had just tried to kill him.

 

 

Merrill sniffs some blood. Drug tests IRL aren't even 100% reliable with blood-samples, and those are being read by machines. Having some person sniff it opens the door to human error. For one thing, you may not have the luxury of having someone around who knows what smell is "wrong." It may not even be doable for human, for all we know (maybe elves have stronger olfactory senses). Even if you do have that guy, there may be things that interfere and result in false positives. Like, would Warden blood smell wrong? Perhaps they have something in their bloodstream at the time that makes it smell funky, in the same vein that consuming something as innocuous as poppy seeds can raise red-flags for things like heroin.

The Warden does smell demonically-touched blood in Something Wicked. Which smells like sulfur, incidentally.

 

 

Unless it can be proven that these tests are perfect and fool-proof, which virtually nothing ever is, then you are still accepting the risk of executing innocent, untainted mages by using them.

While true, it's still a vast improvement on the Annulment, and we can further refine things when we know what the possible false positives are.