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[Hydwn]

I don't mean for Kirkwall.  The city was bent on destroying itself, and it would have found a way anyway.  Qunari and Meredith and Anders could have managed all that if Hawke never entered the picture.

 

It's become a commonplace among DA2's detractors that Hawke does nothing, and that nothing he does matters.  Reading World of Thedas and looking at the promotional materials for DA2, I realized there are three very important, major-historical things Hawke does do that would not have happened if they hadn't been there:

 

• Hawke "may have saved Flemeth's life" as she puts it.  Meaning it's entirely possible Flemeth could have been removed from the game if they hadn't been there.  Some people think Flemeth is going to be a heroic figure in DAI.  Most of the theories go the other way.
• Hawke is credited with "discovering" red lyrium, as the World of Thedas puts it.  It is likely Bartrand's expedition would not have made it to the primeval thaig without Hawke's involvement.  We already know about the red templars in DAI, a nightmare that was introduced to the surface world thanks to that mission.
• Hawke released Corypheus, or so it's strongly implied.  Only a Hawke child could have breached that prison.

All three are unintentional, but all three seem to be priming the world for new and horrific disasters, potentially on par with Blights.  

 

It also got me thinking about Hawke as the anti-Warden, and not just because he's the everyman to the Warden's epic hero.  

 

No matter how much of a bastard the Warden is, the good they do will always outweigh the evil.  You can kill the Dalish, sacrifice Connor, and give the anvil to the dwarves, and sell the elven slaves for a constitution boost, but at the end of the day every man, woman, and child in Fereldan is dead except for you.  Possibly everyone in the world.

 

By contrast, Hawke can be the most gentle of angels, and still most of what he does that will have a lasting impact is to release horrors into the world.

 

What do you guys think?  Am I way off on this?

 

[Willowhugger]

Obviously, it depends on your Hawke choices.

 

* If Hawke killed the Arishok he's going to go down amongst those with anti-Qunari sentiments as a legendary figure because the Qunari are such a terrifying menace that a Fereldan defeating their military leader in single combat is the stuff which heroes are born from. The fact it may have stopped an invasion of Thedas is another big deal.

 

Ironically, if he turns over Isabela, he may go down in QUNARI history as another big legend.

 

* If Hawke sides with the Mages and they win the war he's probably going to have a role in history like John Brown where he is associated with the emancipation movement from then on.

 

I can also see him getting tarred and feathered like JB was from Southern apologists. Either way, Hawke is a key figure in the equivalent of Thedas' Civil War. He's going to always be known as the guy there at Fort Sumter.

 

+ If the Mages win, slaying Meredith will be viewed as the first Big Victory of the Mage-Templar War.

 

+ If the Templars win, slaying Orsino is likely to be considered a significantly less grandiose victory.

 

+ Either way, killing the High Dragon is an act of legend. High Dragon slayers get immediate "One in a million" status.

I can see the Hero of Fereldan being sort of their equivalent of Odysseus or King Arthur being one of the great operatic heroes of the setting.

Hawke I see as, literally, their equivalent of Sam Spade given Varric seems to be writing Fereldan Detective novels/Potboilers about him.

[whanzephruseke]

 

It's become a commonplace among DA2's detractors that Hawke does nothing, and that nothing he does matters. 

 

That's because Hawke isn't actually the main character of DA2--Anders is.

[Hydwn]

Obviously, it depends on your Hawke choices.

 

* If Hawke killed the Arishok he's going to go down amongst those with anti-Qunari sentiments as a legendary figure because the Qunari are such a terrifying menace that a Fereldan defeating their military leader in single combat is the stuff which heroes are born from. The fact it may have stopped an invasion of Thedas is another big deal.

 

Ironically, if he turns over Isabela, he may go down in QUNARI history as another big legend.

 

* If Hawke sides with the Mages and they win the war he's probably going to have a role in history like John Brown where he is associated with the emancipation movement from then on.

 

I can also see him getting tarred and feathered like JB was from Southern apologists. Either way, Hawke is a key figure in the equivalent of Thedas' Civil War. He's going to always be known as the guy there at Fort Sumter.

 

+ If the Mages win, slaying Meredith will be viewed as the first Big Victory of the Mage-Templar War.

 

+ If the Templars win, slaying Orsino is likely to be considered a significantly less grandiose victory.

 

+ Either way, killing the High Dragon is an act of legend. High Dragon slayers get immediate "One in a million" status.

I can see the Hero of Fereldan being sort of their equivalent of Odysseus or King Arthur being one of the great operatic heroes of the setting.

Hawke I see as, literally, their equivalent of Sam Spade given Varric seems to be writing Fereldan Detective novels/Potboilers about him.

 

All of that is true.  But from the sounds of it, the conflicts of DAI have subsumed the Mage-Templar war, and even with Varric doing PR, it might be hard to redeem the reputation of the guy who brought Red Lyrium, Corypheus, and Flemeth.  Most of my Hawkes are quite nice/compassionate/diplomatic, but I have a feeling those three things might outweigh the rest of his reputation.  Those things sound like they're going to have a more immediate impact in the brave, new Thedas.

 

(Of course, we won't know for sure until the game comes out.)

 

As for High Dragons, it might put Hawke in with an older class of pre-chivalry heroes.  A lot of those old Greek and Mesopotamians heroes were complete monsters, but renowned for their strength.

[Willowhugger]

All of that is true.  But from the sounds of it, the conflicts of DAI have subsumed the Mage-Templar war, and even with Varric doing PR, it might be hard to redeem the reputation of the guy who brought Red Lyrium, Corypheus, and Flemeth.  Most of my Hawkes are quite nice/compassionate/diplomatic, but I have a feeling those three things might outweigh the rest of his reputation.  Those things sound like they're going to have a more immediate impact in the brave, new Thedas.

 

(Of course, we won't know for sure until the game comes out.)

 

As for High Dragons, it might put Hawke in with an older class of pre-chivalry heroes.  A lot of those old Greek and Mesopotamians heroes were complete monsters, but renowned for their strength.

 

1. From what we can tell, the Mage-Templar War is one of the massive conflicts sweeping Dragon Age: Inquisition so it's resolution is going to be about as important as one of the Blights. Either way, one of the mainstay institutions of Thedas is going to be destroyed or changed forever so it's going to be at least as important as the fall of the Knights Templar or Emancipation Proclamation. The fact that "The End of the World by Demonic Invasion" trumps this doesn't mean the other stuff is less important, just that it's not as important, just like the Fereldan Blight is going to be overshadowed.

 

It'll be, "Hawke was involved in one of the most important wars in history but not THE most important war in history." Which, in all actuality, they WILL be involved since we see them in-game but we don't know their role yet.

 

2. I think Hawke getting the blame for bringing back the Lyrium Idol is going to be somewhat muted given it was Bartrand which physically brought the Idol back and sold it to Meredith who, presumably, gave word to the other Templars. That's also assuming the Templars got their Red Lyrium from her sword when it's just as likely they sent their own expeditions down to retrieve the stuff. I imagine it'll be more of a historical footnote than anything else as Hawke will be mentioned as part of the expedition but Varric has cleared it up as an accident.

 

People like their answers tidy and I imagine Meredith will be remembered as the "Red Templar" founder. We don't remember the guy who mined uranium first after all.

 

3. Corypheus being released was the doings of the Grey Wardens while Hawke managed to defeat him once. Given the Inquisitor is the one who will, undountedly, kill Corypheus forever, it'll be more like a historical footnote though. The Grey Wardens are going to get a black eye for the fact they accidentally released one of the Tevinter Magisters though.

 

Hawke may get part of the blame, though, if he sided with Janeka over Larius, though.

 

4. Flemeth being alive because of Hawke is something I doubt will ever become public knowledge.

 

5. I think the number of High Dragon slayers is like King Callenhad, the Royal Family of Nevarra, and the Companions of Fereldan. So Hawke is in good company. Dragons were also considered extinct for most of Thedas history so this isn't exactly a small deal either.

[Hydwn]

All good points.

 

For the record, I do rather like Hawke.  I'm thinking more about her/his PR and reputation, which judging from Cassandra's assumptions has already taken a very nasty beating.  

 

If his name does become a future curse-word, it won't be because of things Hawke intended.  The nasty stuff you can intend pales compared to the law of unintended consequences in DA2. 

[ShadowLordXII]

Since most of the actual witnesses are dead or missing, it may be commonly assumed that Hawke is the one whose responsible for the mage-templar conflict.

 

As for whether he's an infamous anti-hero in the public eye? I'd guess that would depend on who you ask. Some may like him for killing the Arishok, some may hate him for supporting the mages/templars, some may admire him as being a successful ferelden-born and so on and so forth.

[Hydwn]

Since most of the actual witnesses are dead or missing, it may be commonly assumed that Hawke is the one whose responsible for the mage-templar conflict.

 

Given how defiantly Varric had to insist that Hawke wasn't in on Anders' plan, it seems likely Hawke is at least regarded as a terrorist

[Willowhugger]

Given how defiantly Varric had to insist that Hawke wasn't in on Anders' plan, it seems likely Hawke is at least regarded as a terrorist

 

Except Varric also starts the story off by saying that Hawke is some sort of invincible badass with a sexy sister, Darkspawn Slaying Machine.

 

Cassandra's perception seems to be very obviously not the public's one.

 

I think Cassandra very much wanted to poke holes in Hawke's mythology, only to find herself poking holes in her own theories.

 

Especially since she also came here, terrorist plot or not, seeking Hawke's help.

[ShadowLordXII]

Except Varric also starts the story off by saying that Hawke is some sort of invincible badass with a sexy sister, Darkspawn Slaying Machine.

 

Cassandra's perception seems to be very obviously not the public's one.

 

I think Cassandra very much wanted to poke holes in Hawke's mythology, only to find herself poking holes in her own theories.

 

Especially since she also came here, terrorist plot or not, seeking Hawke's help.

 

I thought Cassandra wanted Hawke's help because she couldn't think of anyone apart from the Warden who had a chance of resolving the Mage-Templar Conflict (And possible the Breach depending on if it happened before or after the Interrogation)

[Hydwn]

Except Varric also starts the story off by saying that Hawke is some sort of invincible badass with a sexy sister, Darkspawn Slaying Machine.

 

Cassandra's perception seems to be very obviously not the public's one.

 

I think Cassandra very much wanted to poke holes in Hawke's mythology, only to find herself poking holes in her own theories.

 

Especially since she also came here, terrorist plot or not, seeking Hawke's help.

 

I actually thought it was the other way around - that Cassandra was presenting him with the commonly held view, and Varric was trying to counterbalance with his own version - exagerrating at first, and then after with the truth.  He does say, "You're not the first to get the story wrong."  

[Willowhugger]

I actually thought it was the other way around - that Cassandra was presenting him with the commonly held view, and Varric was trying to counterbalance with his own version - exagerrating at first, and then after with the truth.  He does say, "You're not the first to get the story wrong."

I took her as giving a bunch of theories without anything really to support them. I can't imagine, for example, most of Thedas thinks Hawke was involved in a plot with the Grey Wardens to destabilize Kirkwall.

[whanzephruseke]

I can't imagine, for example, most of Thedas thinks Hawke was involved in a plot with the Grey Wardens to destabilize Kirkwall.

 

I can totally see it, actually.  There have been lots of hints (see, e.g., trailers, Stroud's comments in DA2, and dialogue with Woolsey in Awakening) that the Grey Wardens are/will be staging coups around Thedas.

[Hydwn]

I took her as giving a bunch of theories without anything really to support them. I can't imagine, for example, most of Thedas thinks Hawke was involved in a plot with the Grey Wardens to destabilize Kirkwall.

 

I don't know.  If there's one thing I've learnt about Theodosians over two games, 4 novels, two comics, a webseries, and an anime movie, it's that they're prepared to believe anything.  Just asking Bodahn Feddic for rumours in DAO seems to prove that ("Shepherd's pie from actual shepherds!" "The grey wardens worship the Archdemon!") 

 

Then there's how widely believed Loghain's claims about the Wardens were.  A great many rallied to his side.

[Willowhugger]

I don't know.  If there's one thing I've learnt about Theodosians over two games, 4 novels, two comics, a webseries, and an anime movie, it's that they're prepared to believe anything.  Just asking Bodahn Feddic for rumours in DAO seems to prove that ("Shepherd's pie from actual shepherds!" "The grey wardens worship the Archdemon!") 

 

Then there's how widely believed Loghain's claims about the Wardens were.  A great many rallied to his side.

Actually, if the Chief of Police in the Capital doesn't believe you enough to arrest the guy when he's standing right next to you, that says how little support you have.

[Kenshen]

It depends on who is viewing or judging Hawke's actions if they will be reguarded in a positive or negative light.  Not sure I agree completely about the Hawke only events except Corypheus, he wouldn't have been freed or least not when he was without Hawke blood and if they are all dead it is not happening right away.  As for Flemeth if the stories are to be believe and I do, she has lived for a very long time I just don't see her allowing Morrigan to take her down.  For the deep roads that one isn't as easy but I think Bartrand would have caved and taken Dogal's money but who knows what happens if that even happens.  The thing is it isn't really how they turned out but how they turned out with Hawke involved.  Taking in all that Hawke does and if we include both DLC I do believe most will view Hawke unfavorablely. 

[TheLastSuperSaiyan87]

Don't forget that even though The Warden can stop the blight he/she can still be a very evil individual so really it depends on how the player uses them, calling Hawke a negative hero is kind of unfair since player choice has no effect on the outcome of DA 2, if we could some how prevent the Mage/Templar War from happening then yes I could see a Hawke who chose a side to be seen as unfavorable compared to a Hawke who prevented the whole thing but we wouldn't have a conflict for the end of the game that way  but Hawke was in one of those I'm screwed if I do and I'm screwed if I don't situations. 

[KaiserShep]

4. Flemeth being alive because of Hawke is something I doubt will ever become public knowledge.

 

In fairness, Flemeth was alive anyway. At the most, Hawke was an alleged witch smuggler

[Darkly Tranquil]

Actually, if the Chief of Police in the Capital doesn't believe you enough to arrest the guy when he's standing right next to you, that says how little support you have.

Keep in mind that Sergeant Kylon is one of the most sane people in all of Dragon Age. As such, he must be regarded as a statistical outlier, given how insane and/or stupid most other people seem to be.

[Hydwn]

Don't forget that even though The Warden can stop the blight he/she can still be a very evil individual so really it depends on how the player uses them, calling Hawke a negative hero is kind of unfair since player choice has no effect on the outcome of DA 2, if we could some how prevent the Mage/Templar War from happening then yes I could see a Hawke who chose a side to be seen as unfavorable compared to a Hawke who prevented the whole thing but we wouldn't have a conflict for the end of the game that way  but Hawke was in one of those I'm screwed if I do and I'm screwed if I don't situations. 

 

No disputing that the Warden can be evil, and Hawke was an unwitting partner in all of the worst things.  I wasn't talking about their morality in this thread, but the public perception.  On my "pure evil" playthroughs of DAO and DA2, no one in DA2 had a bad word to say about the Warden.  The people you meet always regard the Warden as a hero, no matter what they do.  Mine was a mage warden Amell, and mages and Leandra speak proudly of the mage/cousin who ended the blight (not "That bastard annulled the circle and killed the elves!"). 

 

I'm thinking Hawke might have the opposite problem.  Given the major things they do, and the rumours that Cassandra seems to believe, I think that even the nicest, kindest Hawkes are going to be regarded as a villain by future history - not because they actively brought back red lyrium/freed Corypheus/saved Felemeth, but because the public thinks they did.  It makes me wonder if the Hawke who shows up in DAI will be thought of as a villain by all but Varric and Cassandra.

[BobZilla84]

Well Hawkes reputation  is honestly not that important to me because in my opinion he was just there a observer the fact is Anders was the actual main character not Hawke and there is not one thing in DA2 that wasnt Hawke related "Family and Stuff" that could have still been in DA2 without hawke and with Anders as the PC.

 

The Deep Roads Expedition:

As mentioned Dougal had the money so Hawke wasnt really needed

 

The Qunari Arc:

Hawke can kill The Arishok but in truth any PC could have "Anders"

 

The Ending:

This isnt even a issue the events with the Chantry would always happen even without Hawke

 

Legacy:

This one could have been available without Hawke as well because the Blood of The Hawke thing felt like a forced tie to the PC and Bioware could have just made it be about The Wardens and Corypheus.

 

Now dont get me wrong I love my Hawkes but they really didnt need to be there in DA2 in constant spectator mode but thats not Hawkes fault no the blame rests with Bioware and DA2s writing/Choices.

[Willowhugger]

 

Well Hawkes reputation  is honestly not that important to me because in my opinion he was just there a observer the fact is Anders was the actual main character not Hawke and there is not one thing in DA2 that wasnt Hawke related "Family and Stuff" that could have still been in DA2 without hawke and with Anders as the PC.

 

That seems something of a drastic overstatement of Anders importance. Aside from being Guy Fawkes, Anders doesn't do anything of importance. Meredith was at her breaking point anyway.

[Kenshen]

Well Hawkes reputation  is honestly not that important to me because in my opinion he was just there a observer the fact is Anders was the actual main character not Hawke and there is not one thing in DA2 that wasnt Hawke related "Family and Stuff" that could have still been in DA2 without hawke and with Anders as the PC.

 

 

Would Anders been able to hide all of those years if it wasn't for Hawke indirectly and Varic directly.  I suppose it comes back to if the deep roads trip actually would happen without Hawke since Varic would still need entry points and Anders had knowledge of them.  This thread reminds me of the movie It's a Wonderful Life in how so many events would change from slightly to a lot if Hawke isn't around to have an affect on them.

[Hydwn]

As for the Deep Roads, I was actually not thinking about the 50 gold coins or even the maps - I was thinking about the one thing Hawke brings to the table no matter you play them.  Hawke's a badass.

 

("Helping people and killing people," sarcastic Hawke once says are the two things they're good at.  Violent can answer the question "What do you call it when you kill someone and take all their stuff?" with "Tuesday.")

 

Even if Varric had somehow gotten Anders' maps, it's Hawke's talent for cutting through darkspawn, demons, giant spiders, dragons, and rock wraiths that gets them to the primeval thaig.  It's Hawke's talent for mowing things down that gets them into Kirkwall in the first place, that gets them their coin, and that makes them the champion.  And I honestly don't see Varric and Bartrand cutting through dragons and ogres on their own (though Varric would probably be the last to go down).

 

As for the Arishok and the ending, I think those would have happened without him there.  Kirkwall forced out a much larger army of qunari before, they could force out another.  Meredith was clearly crazy, and would have had her fight eventually.

 

I'm more focused on red lyrium, Flemeth, and Corypheus, because I think those are three aspects of Hawke's story that are going to be huge in either DAI or future games.  If his story gets boiled down to those elements, his reputation is going to suffer badly.

[BobZilla84]

I think DA2 consists of 2 different stories taking place at the same time there is the Primary Mage/Templar story and the Secondary Hawke story and we were not able to affect much in the M/T story minus the Qunari part but in Hawkes story we cant affect much either and in a fit of stupidity Bioware decided to connect the two stories and we all know how that turned out seriously I can dual The Arishock which is ok but saving my mother no no no not even an option.

 

If we would have had more chances to affect the stuff about Hawkes family that would have gone a long way but nope Observer mode Activated thanks Bioware.