87 réponses à ce sujet

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

No, humanity wasn't truly a space faring race until after the discovery of the Prothean ruins. A true space faring race, in my opinion, means that it's a race that has the ability to travel outside their own system en mass.

 

 

I'm not the one suggesting that, you are the one suggesting that the Shadow Broker is an "average Yahg". I just stated that we don't have enough information on the Yahg, both physically and culturally and that chances are the Shadow Broker is most likely the exception, a genius among his people.

 

 

Actually it was, because the Persians blamed Athens for the uprising... when in fact it was one of their own governors who incited the riots. How then, is that not a misunderstanding?

 

 

Except that we have historical evidence to back it up. Archeological excavations have proven that there was in fact, a King Menelaus, and that there was a war with Troy during his time. As well, Troy is not located in Mesopotamia... it's in Turkey. There are countless myths and stories about Menelaus, Helen and Troy. Homer combined the story into what is now known as the Iliad.

 

A good historian knows that myths and legends, are often based on real things, but things are often added onto them as time marches forward to make the story more exciting when it's retold.

 

 

Ummm... it was still a war. Even if it was short, it still meets wars started over misunderstandings/minor offenses.

 

 

*Sigh* I so enjoy when someone doesn't bother to actually research, pretends to know what they are talking about. Please actually COMPREHEND what I said, I stated that there are a bunch of wars started over minor misunderstandings AND OFFENSES! The military build up would be considered a MINOR OFFENSE, this is due to the fact that every European nation created a system where they could quickly recruit, train, arm and field the biggest possible army they could get in the shortest amount of time. The system was devised to ensure that no one would start a massive military build up without being countered. The only problem was, there was no way to stop this system once it started!

 

What lead to the event of the military build up was the "extremely complicated strings of European alliances", what lead to the actual war was the fact that the massive military build up created such a tense and hostile atmosphere in Europe, that just about anything would have set the war off.

 

 

It's a minor offense used as an excuse to start a war. Jenkins was lucky, most smugglers back then were arrested and hung, killed out right or pressed into indentured service into the royal navy.

 

 

 

And that fear was used by secessionists to fuel the misunderstanding...

 

 

So where then, did I blame a US ambassador, for the war? I stated a fact, Saddam sought and asked how the US feels about Kuwait. April Glaspie replies:

 

"We have no opinion on your Arab-Arab conflicts, such as your dispute with Kuwait. Secretary Baker has directed me to emphasize the instruction, first given to Iraq in the 1960s, that the Kuwait issue is not associated with America."

 

Anyone who was looking to start a war would take this statement as "We don't care what you do". So please, don't project yourself, onto me.

 

 

I gave you the examples, you can try to nit pick as much as you want, won't change reality.

 

 

And the Codex is infallible now? Once again, it's based on the VERY LITTLE INFORMATION THAT IS KNOWN! Thus, it cannot be taken at face value until more information is discovered. The Codex is constantly upgraded every game, don't forget that in ME1 the codex stated the Reapers were nothing but a myth.

 

I'll state the fact that being able to think faster does not automatically mean one is smarter.
 

I'm well aware of that, I always encouraged him to go fight the Sisters. My statement though, was to the point of how you're acting like everything you say is factually accurate... when it is not.

Exactly. So Humanity has no technological edge. 

There is nothing to show that he is special or more intelligent, only that he was interested in space. 

You mean the ethnic Greeks in Anatolia objecting to being conquered by the Persians? That was caused by the Persians conquering them. 

I mentioned that I know that Troy was an actual city, destroyed around 1250 BCE by the Myceneans. Mesopotamian and Anatolian civilizations were very closely interconnected through trade, and around that time almost all of them went through a collapse of some sort. Circumstantial evidenced suggests the collapse of Troy is less about Helen running off to Troy than other causes. 

It lasted a week and 100 people were harmed. Not a war in my mind. 

If you're calling the situation leading up to WWI a "minor offense", then what is a major offense?

Exactly, the minor offense didn't cause it. 

What misunderstanding? Was there not a large and powerful faction in the northern states that wanted to completely abolish slavery?

Your point is that wars can be started by minor things? That line said by the ambassador did not start the Gulf War. 

You're saying that all the information from that codex entry comes from people meeting the Shadow Broker? I'd think it's more likely that the lines came from the Citadel teams observing the species. 

But put the two comments on Yahg intelligence together, and that does mean they're smarter. 

Are you not doing the same thing?

[Fayfel]

The Reapers would've undoubtedly known about humanity. The codex writer ( ME1/2 when the codex was worth something ) has mentioned on more than one occasion that the Reapers would send ships far and wide and simply listen. Earth has been broadcasting it's location since the beginning of the 20th century. A single Reaper agent within 300ish light years of Earth would be able to easily detect humanities presence.

 

If we assume that the Reapers decide to ignore us for the time being, how can we be sure that humanity would've even survived much longer? Humans are in almost the exact same situation as the drell. Earth is overpopulated, polluted, and it's readily available resources are tapped. Without the mass effect to jump start our exploration and exploitation of space I doubt humanity would've made it much further before collapsing in on itself.

 

Suppose though that humanity did survive while also being ignored. What then? I imagine we'd do as the Council races did. Populate into the trillions, become untouchably powerful, and grow complacent. A human political leader would be the one dismissing the Reapers with air quotes.

[SporkFu]

The harvest is over and the reapers have gone back to dark space. Sovereign is probably in dormant mode to conserve energy, or maybe he spends forty thousand years in dark space with the other reapers first, and only re-enters the galaxy when there might be something happening. After so many harvests, they probably have a pretty good idea how long it takes for a civilization to evolve to the point where things need to be monitored more closely.

 

So... shortly after the reapers go home, humanity finds the prothean beacon on mars, and sometime later they colonize Eden Prime. There is no first contact war this time because there is no one else to war with. I'm not saying other species aren't out there evolving too, like the yahg. Just saying there is no one out there advanced enough to come looking for us.

 

Anyway, they find the prothean beacon on Eden Prime, and this time it doesn't explode, and someone gets the message from the protheans. This time the beacon is brought back to Mars, where it's hooked up to the archive, and using what we've learned from the archive -- and now from the Citadel too -- to translate it better.

 

Also, by now humanity would be learning all about the relay network, and finding out how to switch on relays. Now suddenly we're colonizing other planets, like Thessia, building our society on the ruins of the asari homeworld, an eezo rich planet. 

 

Meanwhile, the beacon is attached to the archive, and while it may take hundreds or thousands of years to fully understand the message, we learn way more about the reapers than was ever known before. With no time pressure to build the crucible, we fully learn what it's capable of, and how to make it work better. Each cycle contributed to the building of the thing; refining it -- because we have the time to -- would be our contribution.

 

By the time Sovereign returns to check things out, he already realizes the reapers are f****d if they invade.  

 

That's my take on it. 

[themikefest]

At least humanity wouldn't meet the asari. I say that's a good thing.

[Display Name Owner]

Since the whole "every 50,000 years" thing seemed to be added solely for the sake of simplification, I guess the Reapers would just nap for about 2000 years or however ong it might take Humanity and any other spacefaring races to reach "ripeness" and then it's harvest time as usual.

[Turkeysock]

Exactly. So Humanity has no technological edge. 

 

 

Wow,are you not capable of basic reading comprehension? Or do you just ignore anything that doesn't fit into your opinion? I stated that humanity still has a technological edge because THEY STILL HAVE THE PROTHEAN BEACON! The OP asked what we would think would have happened had humanity found the beacon and the relay AFTER the Reaper invasion, not what if there was never a beacon.

 

 

There is nothing to show that he is special or more intelligent, only that he was interested in space. 
 

 

*Sigh* He's the only one we've actually encountered and talked too. So there's no way to tell if he is an "average Yahg" or if he's exceptional. We won't know until there is more on the Yahg as a race. But, considering the one big thing they've pushed so far about the Yahg, whose culture revolves around a pack mentality. Show me where the Shadow Broker has shown that? Nowhere, he treated those under him like pawns, killed them off whenever he wanted too; wanted to use Shepard as a bargaining chip to save his own hide at the expense of everyone else... I can keep going, but I know you'll only ignore what doesn't fit into your opinion.

 

 

You mean the ethnic Greeks in Anatolia objecting to being conquered by the Persians? That was caused by the Persians conquering them. 
 

 

Again, not bothering to actually research, are you? The person who actually incited the riots and led the uprising... was the Persian governor Aristagoras. Yet the Athenians were blamed the uprising...

 

 

I mentioned that I know that Troy was an actual city, destroyed around 1250 BCE by the Myceneans. Mesopotamian and Anatolian civilizations were very closely interconnected through trade, and around that time almost all of them went through a collapse of some sort. Circumstantial evidenced suggests the collapse of Troy is less about Helen running off to Troy than other causes. 
 

 

Myceneans were Greeks... and Menelaus was the King of Mycenaean Sparta.

 

Mesopotamia and Anatolia have always been close. Several empires, such as the Akkadians and Assyrians held portions of the Anatolia with all of Mesopotamia. But Troy VII, which is considered Homeric Troy, was destroyed in a siege around the time of Menelaus.

 

 

It lasted a week and 100 people were harmed. Not a war in my mind.

 

Hmmm... yet the rest of the world considers it a war... an obscure one, but still a war. You don't get to arbitrarily decide what is and is not a war.

 

 

If you're calling the situation leading up to WWI a "minor offense", then what is a major offense?

 

I'm calling the military build up a minor offense. Which, if it had been done at ANY OTHER TIME, would not have lead to war.

 

 

Exactly, the minor offense didn't cause it.

 

No, it did cause the war...

 

 

What misunderstanding? Was there not a large and powerful faction in the northern states that wanted to completely abolish slavery?

 

No, there wasn't. The Abolition movement was rather small, but it was very vocal, so it appeared larger. It also wasn't that powerful, at least until the southern states succeeded. As well, in order for slavery to be abolished in the US, it would have required the majority of the states to pass the amendment to abolish slavery. As long as there were representatives in Congress from the slave states, slavery could NEVER be abolished.

 

 

Your point is that wars can be started by minor things? That line said by the ambassador did not start the Gulf War.

 

*Sigh* I never stated that the ambassador started the Gulf War. I stated that what the ambassador said obviously lead to the idea that the US didn't care about an "Arab-Arab" conflict.

 

 

You're saying that all the information from that codex entry comes from people meeting the Shadow Broker? I'd think it's more likely that the lines came from the Citadel teams observing the species.

 

But put the two comments on Yahg intelligence together, and that does mean they're smarter.

 

Are you not doing the same thing?

 

Actually, I never stated that. I stated that the codex information is based on very little information that is known. As well, how much information can you really gain about a culture and language completely foreign to you just through observing it from long distances? Not much.

 

Also... that quote "unrivaled mental capacity" was about the Yahg that took over the Shadow Broker, not the species. So again, no, it does not prove anything!

 

You claim that humanity will not have a technological edge, yet you ignore that they still have the PROTHEAN BEACON that holds tons of information! How about how you've used a codex entry about the Yahg Shadow Broker and pushed it for all Yahg. I've only pushed that we NEED MORE INFORMATION! You've pushed that we already have all the information we need.

 

You've completely butchered history.. and lets not forget about the complete lack of reading comprehension. I can only assume that either you are now trolling me or you really are incapable of basic reading comprehension.

[in it for the lolz]

Then humanity would have to put up with those damnable blue-skinned Xenos. Which is a win in my book.

[Jukaga]

Had the Prothean scientists not sabotaged the citadel then around 500 BC the Citadel races would have been harvested and Earth left alone. We were to be the Apex race in the cycle after the Asari. It's likely we would have faced down the Yahg as our biggest competitor and we would have likely gone a 'Prothean Empire' route and fight the Reapers valiantly once they showed up and likely all died like the Protheans.

[Jukaga]

He'd probably become the most powerful man on the planet and be the one leading humanity into space... well, beyond our solar system. 

 

 

I can't see how. The incident that changed Jack Harper to TiM happened during the FCW. No Turians, no FCW, no TiM. He'd be long dead by the time the Reapers showed up for us in ~50,000 A.D.

[Jukaga]

Since the whole "every 50,000 years" thing seemed to be added solely for the sake of simplification, I guess the Reapers would just nap for about 2000 years or however ong it might take Humanity and any other spacefaring races to reach "ripeness" and then it's harvest time as usual.

 

 

I don't think so. Remember, the Reaper's don't wipe out civilizations for the laughs, it's because they've 'failed' to resolve the organic-synthetic conflict. Why wipe out something that hasn't even had the chance? The galaxy is the Catalyst's laboratory, not slaughterhouse.

[SporkFu]

I can't see how. The incident that changed Jack Harper to TiM happened during the FCW. No Turians, no FCW, no TiM. He'd be long dead by the time the Reapers showed up for us in ~50,000 A.D.

Well, I'm the first to admit I'm not as knowledgeable about outside-the-games stuff as other people are. I mean, I read the books once, quite a while ago. I haven't read any of the comics or anything like that. I just scanned through some stuff on the wiki, and... I mean, since this whole topic is about re-writing "history" and taking humanity out of the current cycle anyway, who's to say Jack Harper couldn't found Cerberus and become the Illusive Man upon the discovery of the Mars archive? As for him being dead in 50,000 years,... hey, Cerberus is an idea, right? 

[capn233]

I'm guessing Blasto, the first Hanar Spectre, would have defeated the Reapers.

[Patchwork]

While the Reapers were fighting the allied space faring races of the galaxy the yagh were safe but once they had won I can't imagine the Reapers not doing a sweep of the galaxy to assess what's left.

 

I don't think they would have left humans alone either but say they did, both humans and the yagh. They're roughly the same technology wise but humans are a little more advanced when it comes to space travel. After both groups find the Citadel war is inevitable, there's no mediating race to convince these two species used to dominating their environment into long term co-operation (it's humans and turians without the asari and salarians to keep the peace). The yagh have the physical and mental edge over humans but humans are tenacious and inventive. 

 

War pushes the two species into advancing technology at an alarming rate, it's ugly and Watcher Reaper doesn't think they can wait 50,000 years and win so the Reapers turn up early. Alternatively the humans/yagh war destroys the galaxy before the Reapers have finished their nap. One way or another not reaping the humans or the yahg in the first place was a bad idea. 

[AlanC9]

I don't think so. Remember, the Reaper's don't wipe out civilizations for the laughs, it's because they've 'failed' to resolve the organic-synthetic conflict. Why wipe out something that hasn't even had the chance? The galaxy is the Catalyst's laboratory, not slaughterhouse.

True. So they'd wait until humanity failed, then harvest.

[ImaginaryMatter]

I don't think so. Remember, the Reaper's don't wipe out civilizations for the laughs, it's because they've 'failed' to resolve the organic-synthetic conflict. Why wipe out something that hasn't even had the chance? The galaxy is the Catalyst's laboratory, not slaughterhouse.

 

I'm confused about this line of reasoning. If the species is still around by the time the Reaper gets to them doesn't that mean the species hasn't failed or hadn't had a chance yet -- because they haven't succumbed to the AI threat and are still alive and kicking?

[KaiserShep]

I don't think so. Remember, the Reaper's don't wipe out civilizations for the laughs, it's because they've 'failed' to resolve the organic-synthetic conflict. Why wipe out something that hasn't even had the chance? The galaxy is the Catalyst's laboratory, not slaughterhouse.

 

This is like killing someone who failed to score a perfect game at bowling. I mean, the person is still alive, so the possibility is always there. Is there like a time limit? Do the reapers have a quota? That's probably it. It's the same reason the cops sometimes give tickets for crap. Gorram reapers.

[ImaginaryMatter]

This is like killing someone who failed to score a perfect game at bowling. I mean, the person is still alive, so the possibility is always there. Is there like a time limit? Do the reapers have a quota? That's probably it. It's the same reason the cops sometimes give tickets for crap. Gorram reapers.

 

To add to that apparently Synthesis, which solves the problem, is a natural evolution of life. So, why don't the Reaper's just wait around long enough for the races to reach that point and interfere whenever there's a particularly bad AI outbreak?

[KaiserShep]

Well, the Catalyst also said that it can't be forced. I guess what it meant to say was that it should just be forced by someone else, 'cause it's getting too old for this sh**.

[ImaginaryMatter]

Well, the Catalyst also said that it can't be forced. I guess what it meant to say was that it should just be forced by someone else, 'cause it's getting too old for this sh**.

 

Honestly, the EC dialogue for Synthesis just made it even more confusing because it rose a lot more questions that it answered.

 

Like the Catalyst says organics are perfected because now they can fully integrate with synthetic technology. Is the Catalyst just being redundant here or is it saying that only technology developed by someone like the Geth can be fully integrated?

[KaiserShep]

Shepard: But we can already integrate with synthetic technology now. What's the difference?

 

Catalyst:

                                                         MAAAAAAAAGIC

[Han Shot First]

To add to that apparently Synthesis, which solves the problem, is a natural evolution of life. So, why don't the Reaper's just wait around long enough for the races to reach that point and interfere whenever there's a particularly bad AI outbreak?

 

The funniest thing about Synthesis for me, is that the Catalyst admits to annihilating a past cycle where something like Synthesis had been attempted. That cycle failed to live up to the mass-murdering A.I.'s expectations, and so it was back to the drawing board. And yet Shepard is supposed to trust that this time everything is going to be perfectly fine, for all time, and that the mass murdering A.I. overlord can be trusted to play nice with its fully intact and operational Reaper Fleet, and not use it to cause any more mass extinctions.

 

Don't mind me. I'll just be over here. Shooting this tube.

[ImaginaryMatter]

The funniest thing about Synthesis for me, is that the Catalyst admits to annihilating a past cycle where something like Synthesis had been attempted. That cycle failed to live up to the mass-murdering A.I.'s expectations, and so it was back to the drawing board. And yet Shepard is supposed to trust that this time everything is going to be perfectly fine, for all time, and that the mass murdering A.I. overlord can be trusted to play nice with its fully intact and operational Reaper Fleet, and not use it to cause any more mass extinctions.

 

Don't mind me. I'll just be over here. Shooting this tube.

 

That's one of the problems I have with Synthesis as a solution. Shepard (and the player) has a very shallow comprehension of what the green wave actually does, so the choice feels more like a reflection on how well you value the Catalyst's opinion.

[Jukaga]

I'm confused about this line of reasoning. If the species is still around by the time the Reaper gets to them doesn't that mean the species hasn't failed or hadn't had a chance yet -- because they haven't succumbed to the AI threat and are still alive and kicking?

Well if everything went to plan, we would have still been swinging slabs of iron at each other when the Citadel races were being harvested. Its a poor farmer that eats the seed for next season's crop. Left to our own devices, we would have discovered the Mars archives, and the Charon relay and then colonize an empty Citadel and/or come into conflict with the Yagh, Raloi and other races to become the apex race. Then we would have eventually developed AI, come into conflict with it and either broke the pattern or succumbed to it. Thanks to the Prothean scientists, the Citadel races got to benefit from our presence.

[Jukaga]

Let me be clear, I'm not wallpapering over the plot holes, just breaking it down as presented without value judgments.