85 réponses à ce sujet

[Drone223]

Star Trek was Roddenberry's conception of what human society could or should become. It's idealized and arguably unrealistic even as a prospect for the far future but that's what it was. 

 

The Mary Sue behavior is a bit easier to swallow when it's substantiated by high standards.

 

But anyway, I agree that at the very least the genetics stuff in ME was complete hogwash, but the advancement in the Council was due to the actions of the player character, so it may not have been geared towards uplifting humanity as much as uplifting the player. It's a common concession in these kinds of games.

 

Perhaps having one or more alien cultures in the game which are superior in every way would be a good mitigating factor. 

 

(It could have been done with the Reapers but then the thing happened...)

DS9 imo had the best depiction of the federation since it finally depicts its flaws. But back on-topic a good number of the "aliens" in Star Trek are just in fact humans with different names (Betazoids being one the most notable examples). So it wouldn't be a good idea to approach alien concepts in a manner like Star Trek.

 

P.S. When it comes to "humans are special" some franchises such as Halo can pull it off, but ME couldn't with the "human genetic diversity" being the worst offender since in RL human's aren't that diverse.

[Farangbaa]

Not diverse compared to what? Humans might very well be the most diverse among intelligent, space faring species. I have no idea.

[Vortex13]

DS9 imo had the best depiction of the federation since it finally depicts its flaws. But back on-topic a good number of the "aliens" in Star Trek are just in fact humans with different names (Betazoids being one the most notable examples). So it wouldn't be a good idea to approach alien concepts in a manner like Star Trek.

 

P.S. When it comes to "humans are special" some franchises such as Halo can pull it off, but ME couldn't with the "human genetic diversity" being the worst offender since in RL human's aren't that diverse.

 

Star Trek: Deep Space 9 was the best Star Trek show for exactly the reasons you mentioned.

 

 

As far as Halo goes, I will have to disagree that it pulls off the "humans are special" well.

 

Spoiler

 

Halo 4's revealing that humanity actually was an extra galactic race that beat the ever lasting crap out the the Forerunners, and was only defeated because of the Flood, and even then saved from extinction by one of the Forerunners. That had to be one of the more ridiculous, eye rolling moments I've had with science fiction.

 

 

Not diverse compared to what? Humans might very well be the most diverse among intelligent, space faring species. I have no idea.

 

I suppose it could be possible that humanity could have a greater degree of genetic variation, but it could have been written better. The narrative could have explained more in regards to variation among the galaxy's species instead of just three lines of dialogue. As it is now, the declaration comes across as less of a scientific observation and more of a "humanity is totally awesome, bro" moment.

 

[Drone223]

 

 

As far as Halo goes, I will have to disagree that it pulls off the "humans are special" well.

 

Spoiler

 

Halo 4's revealing that humanity actually was an extra galactic race that beat the ever lasting crap out the the Forerunners, and was only defeated because of the Flood, and even then saved from extinction by one of the Forerunners. That had to be one of the more ridiculous, eye rolling moments I've had with science fiction.

 

 

Read my comment again I said some series can pull off "humans are special" trope and Halo is one of those series that handles it well, ME on the other hand doesn't.

 

P.S the relationship with human's and the forerunner's has been established in the very first game.

[Vortex13]

Read my comment again I said some series can pull off "humans are special" trope and Halo is one of those series that handles it well, ME on the other hand doesn't.

 

P.S the relationship with human's and the forerunner's has been established in the very first game.

 

It was established that humans were special yes, but Halo 4 made the already 'special snowflake' humanity into Super Sayiens.

 

Spoiler

 

Not only were we more awesome than the Forerunners; since humanity came from outside the Milky Way and then proceeded to kick the ever living crap out of the Forerunners; but the only reason that we lost in the fight with them is because the Flood were hitting us from the rear while we pressed into the galaxy.

 

An even though the Forerunners beat us back, they didn't kill us; in fact the Forerunners (essentially) split into a civil war over trying to protect us, since only humanity was worthy of the "Mantle". So they de-evolve us, plop us on Earth and spend their last vestiges of strength to ensure our survival.

 

Then, despite that we are un-evolved monkeys compared to the Didect, who has full access to Forerunner tech we still kick the crap out of him.

 

 

I could deal with humanity being special (begrudgingly) in the sense that we were the only ones capable of truly implementing the Forerunner tech, but Halo 4 turned humanity's Mary Sue meter up to 11 and then broke the knob off.

 

There is a reason why I loved Halo 2 over all the other games in that franchise; it had nothing to do with Master Chief and humanity and everything to due with the Arbiter and the Covenant's side of things. The Arbiter was one of the most interesting characters in the series (IMO), …. and he is promptly forgotten in subsequent titles. 

 

/rant

 

 

Anyways, back to the topic at hand.

 

The Thorian was a very interesting species and it sucked that the narrative dictated that we kill it. It would be cool to encounter a more reasonable Thorian, or a plant/fungus based species in future titles.  

[Belgrade_Phantom]

Intresting topics , I also have to expose a few conclusions and parallels beetwen Star Trek and Mass Effect races :



Asari : mix of Vulcans (1st alien race that humans met and established contact , logic, diplomacy and history and ancient belifes similar to the human old religions) , Orions (female, seductive) , Andorians (blue skin) and Tholians (hermafroditic species)

Krogan : Klingon (a bit aggrssive and primitive , physically strong and very military oriented)

Eva : Data (android, robot, artifical life form who is trying to be a human)

Rachni : Tholians (insects, bugs, very aggressive , xenophobic and hostile ooriented toward other species)

Geth : Borg (no individuals , they have acollective consciousness and they are functioning on that way)

Reapers : mix of Voyager VI from original Star Trek movie ( organic synthetical life form (alive machines) in shape of huge star ships) and Borg (they do assimilate everybody on their way or destroy those who oppose to them)

Cerberus : Terra Prime (Section 31) (  pro human and xenophobic independent   , half legal organization , which operate independently from the Federation (Citadel Council)

[Guanxii]

Dp

[Guanxii]

Honestly I like the Mass Effect races precisely because they are so relatable to us. The aesthetic differences serve mostly to draw attention to our shared cultural/behavioral similarities which we all share to greater or lesser extent (even the Geth). These similarities which bind us together are more interesting and have longer lasting appeal than the superficial differences. As Kaidan once said the aliens in mass effect aren't monsters, they're sinners and saints just like us, which is very refreshing.

The alien races' aesthetic qualities are also highly relatable to other mammals we have encountered on earth which gives mass effect a unique surreal kind of plausibility that one doesn't often find or associate with alien sci fi. They feel like real "people" which is amazing. If you start to move way from this pseudo-plausible consistent world full of idealised mammalian alien races sharing universal themes some of this magic will invariably start to break down.

BW have already created most of the well known archetypes/tropes explored in Star Trek and similar shows so I'd rather them stick to fleshing out the existing races rather than simply retread the same old ground where possible, i.e. we already have perfectly good scientific, militaristic, warrior caste and slaver races to explore each of these concepts.

As for new concepts for alien races I think it would be interesting to have an alternative (majority) female species where the male population is in long term decline and explore how this has effected their civilisation and culture over time.

 

Maybe an egalitarian superpower emerges without a debt-based monetary system (having sociologically evolved passed this concept to a new form of economic/political system we have not yet discovered). Having fought several bloody revolutions to get to this point they steadfastly refuse to adopt the antiquated and corrupt Volus galactic credit system.  how would the "galactic community" respond?

[Han Shot First]

As far as aliens from other series go, I thought the Kaminoans from Star Wars were pretty cool. Despite being humanoid they also very alien in appearance.

 

 

 

[SNascimento]

I would like to see some very scary and brutal aliens, like this:


Scaarj from Unreal

I always thought the batarians held this spot, but they were never properly developed. And their design wasn't very good either. It didn't transmit any violence and threat. 

Or these guys:


mimics from Edge of Tomorrow

They are probably the most scary aliens I've ever seen in a film. Sure, they were more weapons of war than a life form, but why shouldn't an alien race develop such things? The hanar os the elcors for example, I always thought they should have developed some kind of mechanized army, or bio-mechanic in the case of the mimics. 



 

[Kabooooom]

God star trek concepts of aliens are terrible. Mass Effect would benefit from moving as far away from star trek cliches as is reasonably possible. It's really quite terrible for science fiction. Initially, portrayals of aliens were limited by practicality in the original star trek series. But now absurd anthropomorphizing practically defines the setting! Yawn. Bad Sci fi is bad.

[Kabooooom]

It was established that humans were special yes, but Halo 4 made the already 'special snowflake' humanity into Super Sayiens.

Spoiler

Not only were we more awesome than the Forerunners; since humanity came from outside the Milky Way and then proceeded to kick the ever living crap out of the Forerunners; but the only reason that we lost in the fight with them is because the Flood were hitting us from the rear while we pressed into the galaxy.

An even though the Forerunners beat us back, they didn't kill us; in fact the Forerunners (essentially) split into a civil war over trying to protect us, since only humanity was worthy of the "Mantle". So they de-evolve us, plop us on Earth and spend their last vestiges of strength to ensure our survival.

Then, despite that we are un-evolved monkeys compared to the Didect, who has full access to Forerunner tech we still kick the crap out of him.

I could deal with humanity being special (begrudgingly) in the sense that we were the only ones capable of truly implementing the Forerunner tech, but Halo 4 turned humanity's Mary Sue meter up to 11 and then broke the knob off.

There is a reason why I loved Halo 2 over all the other games in that franchise; it had nothing to do with Master Chief and humanity and everything to due with the Arbiter and the Covenant's side of things. The Arbiter was one of the most interesting characters in the series (IMO), …. and he is promptly forgotten in subsequent titles.

/rant


Anyways, back to the topic at hand.

The Thorian was a very interesting species and it sucked that the narrative dictated that we kill it. It would be cool to encounter a more reasonable Thorian, or a plant/fungus based species in future titles.

You really dont know much about the Halo Lore at all. Humanity wasn't an "extra-galactic species", they originated from earth all along, previously attained tier 1 status and then were forcibly regressed to a primitive state by the Forerunners. Also, this wasn't introduced in Halo 4, but rather in a series of books from the extended universe before Halo 4 was even released. The writers of Halo 4 had to incorporate that lore into the story, but because it is a complicated lore and many halo fans are of the mindless CoD type that don't care about the story - they had to do it delicately. I think they pulled it off rather well.

But yeah, if you were ignorant about any Halo lore outside of the extremely limited scope of the games, then obviously the reveal in Halo 4 would come as jarring. That's not so much the writers fault as it is yours.

If you are going to make the argument that the lore and back story are crappy, then at least know enough about the subject to make a reasonable argument.

[Hoge]

I honestly would prefer that they move away from the Star Trek conventions of alien design. I've never been a big fan of adding ridges and makeup to humans, and then calling it an alien. Especially when focusing on particular human traits, to the exclusion of other traits, and then framing it as a culture. It serves a specific purpose for storytelling, but it's a very poor way to explore themes that go beyond the more obvious layers of science fiction.

 

I prefer the way Farscape and Star Wars made aliens, using every imaginable technique to create creatures that don't look or act human, at all. Those feel more like another species than Vulcans or Klingons, which feel more like exaggerated historic human cultures with extra facial features.

 

(Note: As a fan of the original Star Trek series and films, this should not be construed as a broad comparison of the quality of franchises, only a comparison, specifically, of how they engaged in the creation of alien species and cultures.)

 

 

I agree with Jeremiah, there is something to be gained from moving away from the humanoid conventions in the alien-ness of the new species should they be present.

 

So more culture, less human. I wanna see the culture of the species at work in the actions of the new races, not just have them in the back of the mind as character background. That goes with both the new and the old species. I care only a bit about humanization of form, just make sure that the aliens feel alien, even if they still look kinda bipedal-y human-y.

They kind of did this with the Elcor and yes I'd definitely like more "alien" species like them. Less human, less human traits and more unique alien culture.

 

Agree with all above. One thing we haven't done in Mass Effect yet is find a pre-space flight species.

 

We could go and land and find their leaders, as they look at us in awe. Before telling them the Yahg want to kill them all.

Yes yes and more yes.

I would especially love to discover more pre-space flight species as well and maybe even introducing them to the galaxy. Hell I'd like to find species that just make me plain go "WTF?!"

[Vortex13]

You really dont know much about the Halo Lore at all. Humanity wasn't an "extra-galactic species", they originated from earth all along, previously attained tier 1 status and then were forcibly regressed to a primitive state by the Forerunners. Also, this wasn't introduced in Halo 4, but rather in a series of books from the extended universe before Halo 4 was even released. The writers of Halo 4 had to incorporate that lore into the story, but because it is a complicated lore and many halo fans are of the mindless CoD type that don't care about the story - they had to do it delicately. I think they pulled it off rather well.

But yeah, if you were ignorant about any Halo lore outside of the extremely limited scope of the games, then obviously the reveal in Halo 4 would come as jarring. That's not so much the writers fault as it is yours.

If you are going to make the argument that the lore and back story are crappy, then at least know enough about the subject to make a reasonable argument.

 

 

Eh, semantics really.

 

I was wrong about my declaration that humans are extra-galactic, but that doesn't change the fact that humanity is continuously given the 'special snowflake' treatment; the narrative constantly injecting them into (pretty much) every facet of the lore and backstory. I enjoyed the lore for the first two titles, and several of the novels, but the constant elevation of humanity; and the Master Chief in particular; to the 'chosen one' status really turned me off to the setting.

 

 

And relying on the player having read a series of novels to explain the reveals in Halo 4 does not absolve the game of its faults (IMO). Additional media should provide supplemental information on the setting, not be the sole source of critical lore, that the games are going to build off of.

[-273]

Assuming we get two new races of course it would be great to seen one that's completely unrecognizable, in appearance, mannerisms, their society, just the absolute definition of "alien". As for the other though what if they were somewhat relatable? I like the idea of something like the genetic cousins of the Asari. However they're location has seen them evolve into an all male, Asexual race with an aggressive, totalitarian Prothean-like attitude, having not originated from Thessia instead of being adept biotics their telepathic abilities evolved in a more weaponized fashion. Could open up a lot of cool sub-plot bits about Asari origins and Prothean meddling and would stand as testament to the wildly different paths the same genetic material can take when cultured in a different environment, sounds like a mass effect-like message anyways. That would be a neat direction to go I think, sorry for not using the star trek template I'm not familiar enough with it.       

[StarcloudSWG]

Again, evolution DOES NOT work that fast. 50k years isn't even enough time to produce a few minor changes in skeletal structure and weight distribution. (eg: Australia's aboriginal peoples, adapted to Australia's climate over 100k years)

 

And that's in humans, who don't even live to a century on average. Imagine how SLOW evolution happens in the Asari.

[LisuPL]

 

 

 

...

 

 

And of course the Grandmaster Porkchops who saves the day at the end of MENext.

[-273]

My bad, when I said "Prothean meddling" I didn't mean to imply they introduced Asari to new planet 50k years ago, just meant to say that it's suspect that this new empire took so many social cues from them. When I said these Asari evolved differently I did so assuming that just like humans, at some point Asari were just multi-celled organisms in the ocean.

[Display Name Owner]

Star Trek? Nah. I'm sure the devs can do better than a bunch of crinkly foreheads and weird hairlines. Well... Asari and going by Tali's picture (which I refuse to acknowledge), Quarians are very close to human. Drell too, to a degree - but I'd hope any new species look at least as otherworldly as Turians.

[Han Shot First]

Star Trek? Nah. I'm sure the devs can do better than a bunch of crinkly foreheads and weird hairlines.

 

 

[Geth Supremacy]

 

 

Han Shot First.  As you excited for the green inferno?

[KaiserShep]

Star Trek? Nah. I'm sure the devs can do better than a bunch of crinkly foreheads and weird hairlines.

In Star Trek's defense, the creature designs were mostly limited by the fact that a lot of it was live actors rather than having CGI everywhere. However, Star Trek does have at least one non-humanoid alien in Species 8472 in Voyager.

[Drone223]

In Star Trek's defense, the creature designs were mostly limited by the fact that a lot of it was live actors rather than having CGI everywhere. However, Star Trek does have at least one non-humanoid alien in Species 8472 in Voyager.

Star Trek had Tholains which aren't humanoid and they appeared in the original series.

[KaiserShep]

I figured there'd be something else out of TOS, but I wasn't that big on that particular series.