217 réponses à ce sujet

[Zjarcal]

Hopefully good memories. Did you use the same name on Gamespot?

I do now, but I was just a lurker there, I do recall reading lots of user reviews and other stuff by you, plus the avatar, so yea, good memories.

[Silent Rogue]

Anybody notice that the people who want the game hard are so insulted that people want to play on easy / narrative mode. Yet the people who play on the "casual" modes don't care if others want to play on broken-leg heroic hardcore difficulty.

Honestly, no, I've not noticed that. If anything I've noticed quite the opposite. Throughout this thread people who have expressed pro challenging gameplay in some shape or form have been met with unjustifiably being called elitists and having words put in their mouths. Below I've copy/pasted some quotes to show what I mean. Furthermore you will only be inviting heated responses and thus souring the thread with posts like that.  

 

 

"Also, don't take it to heart irt the rude people making it like if you can't play a game on nightmare one-handed and blindfolded, you shouldn't be able to enjoy a game."

-----

"I actually take those elitist comments personally. As if it would take anything away from their enjoyment if the story players have their super-easy mode. Unless they take enjoyment in seeing others fail, which I think is a detestable attitude in a single player game."

-----

"I don't get the elitism behind this or the point of it; just because you think the game should be challenging, having an easy option will not affect your challenge in any way. Also, there have been several posts by people with physical limitations, who really *need* easy to be easy in order to play the game at all. Are the elitists going to say these people have no business playing videogames, or what?"

-----

"I remember the very first post I made when I returned to BSN earlier in the year, it was on a thread very much like this one. Many people posted there, the elitists were very vocal and not helpful/empathetic in any way, but there were also MANY posters all suffering from various medical conditions who literally could not physically play on higher difficulties, it seems people either don't think of others having that limitation with games, they know and don't care because the world revolves around them anyway, or they forget. I'm with the easy moders, I have so many gamer friends with physical limitations and to me, elitist comments regarding this topic are like a red rag to a bull that make me rage above everything else." 

-----

"Well - here goes my elitist gamer comment. 

I didn't find DA:O or DA:2 difficult on nightmare at all and I look forward to an increased difficulty (though I'd actually prefer it to come from game states like decreased morale - or diseased troops - or something you caused)"

To which someone responded with:

 

"Yeah that's pretty elitist. Your definition of difficult must be different from other people."

-----

"Maybe like you were offended in some way. I guess you were offended, because you find higher difficulty levels fun. But some people don't find them fun, and the fact that they know they aren't fun is likely because they have tried them and failed."

-----

"What I'm baffled is the number of HARDCORE players disgusted by those who want the reassurance that Easy mode will actually be easy. Ok, we get it; you're uber-gamers who got through DA:O in Nightmare with the pinky finger of your left hand while picking your nose with the other. I happened to struggle through Easy for much of the game."

-----

"They're irrelevant opinions. Many of those people love the challenge of the higher level difficulties, and that's fine for them. But they don't get to dictate to other people how they should play and enjoy the game."

 

 

I think the crux of the matter is that it shouldn't matter what difficulty other people play at, as long as they enjoy themselves. Bioware should have settings that cater for the person who wants a story and the person who wants to be punished.

We're all on the same page with this here! This is what I'm getting at! No one as far as I'm aware of on this thread has stated otherwise. 

[SomeoneStoleMyName]

The real question isnt if the game will be too easy or hard, but if they made difficulty of the encounters right.

Meaning:

 

Sensical to the situation
Varied
Not strength vs strength alone (numbers) but use of tactics and strategy (from both sides, your team and the enemy)
Cheap but ok'ish way about difficulty = just adjusting numbers. I believe this is how it works :/ Prob due to time constraints.
 

[Gtdef]

Right... 

Guilt tripping.... Uh huh. I'm not 'guilt tripping' anyone, why so antagonistic? If you or others read it my way that wasn't my intention. If anyone had difficulty on easy the first thing I would would recommend is to try the tactics settings as it underpins a lot of the gameplay. However that's not that easy to get into and for people wanting the game for story or they might still be interested in combat just a very simplified version, tactics might not be appealing.

So in essence I've got nothing to 'get over' dude. I simply provided the quotes where they actually said 'get better'. You know, the ones you asked for from that other poster. But whatever, you want to make drama llama posturing about it to make some sort of point go right ahead. 

 

My argument is about disability, not difficulty. When you present people that make "get better" arguments and then you throw the disability card, you make them sound petty and I advocated that this is not the case. Thus the guilt tripping. Don't know if that's your intention or not but it's hard to reach to any other conclusion with these 2 things combined.

 

You said 

 

 I haven’t seen many of the ‘get better’ commentators qualify their statements with ‘except those with physical limitations.’

 

And I said that this claim about handicapped people is bogus and getting better is irrelevant to physical limitations as long as you can perform the basic functions because that's the way the game is designed. The same physical effort required to choose a dialogue option, is required to deal with combat. That's what "get over it" is referring to.

 

The difficulty of both previous games lies in understanding what the enemy does and counter it. Not fast reactions. Even if the game is more responsive in DA2, this doesn't change. Any player with the right build can beat any encounter as long he identifies the enemy attacks and take proactive steps to deal with them. Reflex doesn't make it in this equation. It doesn't matter if you are slow or fast after Saarebas starts casting. You will die either way.

 

This is why bringing disability is a pointless argument against difficulty. Because it's about mental effort, not physical.

[Bugsie]

No I don't think it's bogus, not completely. I would argue there is still a degree of dexterity needed even for positioning and making sure you or your companions are in the right place at the right time and where simply moving them can get you whacked. I personally, have lacked dexterity in my mouse hand at times and yes, as a consequence it did take me a long time to figure out the best play and pause tactics for certain fights, I think I've only just got around some things. However, then you get a boss fight like the one with the Arishok (solo duel) that is a perfect example where I felt I needed to run around a bit as well as have the right tactics in play. Also, the bone pit dragon, I've only just beat the damn thing after trying for a long time. Waves of enemies after you think you've got it beat don't help either, but thats's another matter. You can disagree with me and I can't speak for anyone else with dexterity or disability issues just my own experience with the game and the levels of difficulty presented. In addition, considering how long it took for me to get the hang of tactics (I've only being playing rpg's for a few years and have other things in my life more pressing) maybe people don't have time to improve on that level to make the game worthwhile for them?

Look, as I said you asked for where people said 'get better', some of those people did qualify it with 'at tactics' but others didn't, so what did they mean by it? I'm no mind reader!

Eh, I want to add, I'm not concerned about difficulty, for the reasons you and many others have mentioned, I can play tactics on higher difficulty levels, now, pause and play and better understanding of classes, armour and weapons have done exactly what others said but that level of understanding doesn't happen overnight and for some, who may only be into DA for stories or character perhaps it's time better spent elsewhere.

As you said, it's difficult to cater to extreme ends of the spectrum, but if they can do it, and it doesn't affect the experience of others in any discernible way, including my own, I have no issue with such a request.

[Star fury]

Honestly, no, I've not noticed that. If anything I've noticed quite the opposite. Throughout this thread people who have expressed pro challenging gameplay in some shape or form have been met with unjustifiably being called elitists and having words put in their mouths. Below I've copy/pasted some quotes to show what I mean. Furthermore you will only be inviting heated responses and thus souring the thread with posts like that.



"Also, don't take it to heart irt the rude people making it like if you can't play a game on nightmare one-handed and blindfolded, you shouldn't be able to enjoy a game."
-----
"I actually take those elitist comments personally. As if it would take anything away from their enjoyment if the story players have their super-easy mode. Unless they take enjoyment in seeing others fail, which I think is a detestable attitude in a single player game."
-----
"I don't get the elitism behind this or the point of it; just because you think the game should be challenging, having an easy option will not affect your challenge in any way. Also, there have been several posts by people with physical limitations, who really *need* easy to be easy in order to play the game at all. Are the elitists going to say these people have no business playing videogames, or what?"
-----
"I remember the very first post I made when I returned to BSN earlier in the year, it was on a thread very much like this one. Many people posted there, the elitists were very vocal and not helpful/empathetic in any way, but there were also MANY posters all suffering from various medical conditions who literally could not physically play on higher difficulties, it seems people either don't think of others having that limitation with games, they know and don't care because the world revolves around them anyway, or they forget. I'm with the easy moders, I have so many gamer friends with physical limitations and to me, elitist comments regarding this topic are like a red rag to a bull that make me rage above everything else."
-----
"Well - here goes my elitist gamer comment.
I didn't find DA:O or DA:2 difficult on nightmare at all and I look forward to an increased difficulty (though I'd actually prefer it to come from game states like decreased morale - or diseased troops - or something you caused)"
To which someone responded with:

"Yeah that's pretty elitist. Your definition of difficult must be different from other people."
-----
"Maybe like you were offended in some way. I guess you were offended, because you find higher difficulty levels fun. But some people don't find them fun, and the fact that they know they aren't fun is likely because they have tried them and failed."
-----
"What I'm baffled is the number of HARDCORE players disgusted by those who want the reassurance that Easy mode will actually be easy. Ok, we get it; you're uber-gamers who got through DA:O in Nightmare with the pinky finger of your left hand while picking your nose with the other. I happened to struggle through Easy for much of the game."
-----
"They're irrelevant opinions. Many of those people love the challenge of the higher level difficulties, and that's fine for them. But they don't get to dictate to other people how they should play and enjoy the game."



We're all on the same page with this here! This is what I'm getting at! No one as far as I'm aware of on this thread has stated otherwise.

Yeah, your quotes are quite revealing. Casuals are very aggressive and quickly resort to name calling but heaven forbid if they deem somebody offended them. They are also extremely easily offended even by jokes.

[Gtdef]

No I don't think it's bogus, not completely. I would argue there is still a degree of dexterity needed even for positioning and making sure you or your companions are in the right place at the right time and where simply moving them can get you whacked. I personally, have lacked dexterity in my mouse hand at times and yes, as a consequence it did take me a long time to figure out the best play and pause tactics for certain fights, I think I've only just got around some things. However, then you get a boss fight like the one with the Arishok (solo duel) that is a perfect example where I felt I needed to run around a bit as well as have the right tactics in play. Also, the bone pit dragon, I've only just beat the damn thing after trying for a long time. Waves of enemies after you think you've got it beat don't help either, but thats's another matter. You can disagree with me and I can't speak for anyone else with dexterity or disability issues just my own experience with the game and the levels of difficulty presented. In addition, considering how long it took for me to get the hang of tactics (I've only being playing rpg's for a few years and have other things in my life more pressing) maybe people don't have time to improve on that level to make the game worthwhile for them?

Look, as I said you asked for where people said 'get better', some of those people did qualify it with 'at tactics' but others didn't, so what did they mean by it? I'm no mind reader!

Eh, I want to add, I'm not concerned about difficulty, for the reasons you and many others have mentioned, I can play tactics on higher difficulty levels, now, pause and play and better understanding of classes, armour and weapons have done exactly what others said but that level of understanding doesn't happen overnight and for some, who may only be into DA for stories or character perhaps it's time better spent elsewhere.

As you said, it's difficult to cater to extreme ends of the spectrum, but if they can do it, and it doesn't affect the experience of others in any discernible way, including my own, I have no issue with such a request.

 

I think you have me confused with another poster. I was not the same guy that asked you for examples. I just take issue with the disability talk and the people that use it as a counterpoint cause they either fail to understand what other people are asking for or don't really understand the game. I quoted only the disability part of your other post for this reason.

 

As for the matter you describe, that's not dexterity. That's something that you get better at by learning the game, not by becoming more adept at using the mouse. You can't improve something like that without exercise anyway, the same way you don't get better at guitar by just playing chords. You just get better at playing the particular chords. Dexterity is about developing muscle memory and coordination. A whole different concept that doesn't really apply to a game that you can just pause and play, eliminating the need to do multiple actions in quick succession.

[Bugsie]

Ah yeah, Star Fury was the poster asking for examples.  Fair enough, just my personal experience as well as others that I know who play the game.  

 

I still argue it still takes some form of dexterity, especially when the fight takes a long time.  It can be pretty tough on the hands and wrists.  As I said, my personal experience says that most fights can be beat using the tactics and pause and play, but long fights can take it out of you, that is definitely an issue.  It also depends upon an individuals willingness to put that effort into tactics and how quick they can learn in order not to feel defeated or want to rage quit.  What you and I may find rewarding may be very different to what others find rewarding.

[modernfan]

It takes many more button presses to win a combat encounter than it does to advance a conversation using the dialogue wheel.  The button presses for combat are also required to occur much faster and for an extended period of time.  This does have a painful impact on the hands of some players.  The simple act of gripping a controller for long periods of time can also cause pain.  I speak from firsthand experience.  Pause and play tactics can only take you so far.  You still have to spam your attack buttons if you want to win, especially against the higher level bosses, even in casual mode...and for some of us, that hurts.  It is NOT bogus.

[Vortex13]

I feel this is relevant.

 

 

[zwr63]

Just give me good ways to set my companions tactics, and the AI that does what I ask. Then all will be fine. At least friendly fire can be turned off. Theres always that companion that likes to jump in front of my arrow.

[Vapaa]

it you don't understand how to play the game or the mechanics or the tricks if you would take a few minutes and just watch someone on youtube....how they set up their tactics....how they funnel the enemies....how they use their attribute points.  You could learn and never have to worry about having trouble with difficulty ever again.

 

I had a lot of trouble with the coke mission in GTA IV...watched a video and there was something I had missed and it made the mission a lot easier.  The tactics system in Dragon Age will make it so you quite literally don't have to play as your party members unless you want to.  I think people don't pay enough attention to defense and constitution or something.

 

I don't care about your gameplay babble, I have interest in exploration, story and characters, all your stats stuff bore me to no end, that's why I want a easy mode that is really that: easy.

[Icy Magebane]

I think this should put everybody's mind at ease... from a thread talking about the lack of healing spells:  http://forum.bioware...2#entry17416109

 

-snip-

But what about Easy? Well, last weekend, on Easy/Casual, starting the game with a mage and me not saying a word, my seven year old played for two hours that included many battles, including rifts and beating the crap out of a low level Pride demon. No party wipes. I covered his ears once.

I think you'll be fine.

 

That should be good enough to satisfy almost any gamer...

[Cyonan]

I think this should put everybody's mind at ease... from a thread talking about the lack of healing spells:  http://forum.bioware...2#entry17416109

 

 

That should be good enough to satisfy almost any gamer...

 

Yeah, i'd say that sounds about good.

[WillPF363]

Once again, who are the people here that are dictating on how other people should play?

I can't help but notice that you are ignoring Bugsie's post with the quotes. Which is weird- it was right there between my post and yours. Then you continue to ignore it in a later post.

Listen, I get that many people like the challenge of the higher difficulty levels- and I'm happy that they get to enjoy the games the way they want to play them. But I've read through eight pages of this thread, and even more on past threads on the same topic and this disdain for players who would rather play on easy comes up frequently.

But let me also apologize for my phrasing, it looks a bit harsher in hindsight than what I intended. But since OP was asking if Easy would still be Easy, the various posts implying (or outright saying) that players should get better come off as missing the point of the thread at best, and borderline insulting at worst. So that's where I'm coming from.

[Gtdef]

It takes many more button presses to win a combat encounter than it does to advance a conversation using the dialogue wheel.  The button presses for combat are also required to occur much faster and for an extended period of time.  This does have a painful impact on the hands of some players.  The simple act of gripping a controller for long periods of time can also cause pain.  I speak from firsthand experience.  Pause and play tactics can only take you so far.  You still have to spam your attack buttons if you want to win, especially against the higher level bosses, even in casual mode...and for some of us, that hurts.  It is NOT bogus.

 

You actually reinforced my point. If you feel this discomfort by playing both on casual and on higher difficulties, then it doesn't affect your case. As long as you have to grip the controller for extended periods of time and press buttons in quick succession, this problem will persist no matter how well designed the encounter is. I understand that for that reason you'd prefer to be able to defeat encounters by resting the controller on your lap and pressing the minimum amount of buttons. I said before that I have no problem with a casual mode that takes away or mitigates the problem you describe. But I have a problem with people that argue that your case and other disabilities gets in the way of increasing the difficulty of the game. A casual mode only needs you to survive longer so the mistakes aren't punished. That's easily done no matter how hard the game can be on higher difficulties.

 

As a side note, I'm familiar with how problematic gripping the controller can be for someone that has a hand problem. I've been on the receiving end of this due to an allergy and mere contact was taxing. I'm a pc gamer though so I just switched to keyboard. A flat setup where you can rest your hands on the table may be helpful if you can afford it or if you can train yourself to use the controller on a flat surface. I always found the stickers problematic. They require too much force to do anything with them. I know of a few products that are supposed to be more responsive and ergonomic like Razer Onza, but they tend to develop problems in the long run. 

[Star fury]

I think this should put everybody's mind at ease... from a thread talking about the lack of healing spells: http://forum.bioware...2#entry17416109

That should be good enough to satisfy almost any gamer...

So what? People here struggle on easy difficulty. They can't match skills and can't play as smartly as 7 year old kid does.

[Silent Rogue]

I can't help but notice that you are ignoring Bugsie's post with the quotes. Which is weird- it was right there between my post and yours. Then you continue to ignore it in a later post.

Listen, I get that many people like the challenge of the higher difficulty levels- and I'm happy that they get to enjoy the games the way they want to play them. But I've read through eight pages of this thread, and even more on past threads on the same topic and this disdain for players who would rather play on easy comes up frequently.

But let me also apologize for my phrasing, it looks a bit harsher in hindsight than what I intended. But since OP was asking if Easy would still be Easy, the various posts implying (or outright saying) that players should get better come off as missing the point of the thread at best, and borderline insulting at worst. So that's where I'm coming from.

Because none of those quotes had people dictating to others how they should play the game. The only one that you could potentially consider was the 'git gud' comment but considering the spelling I think it was meant as a joke and not to be taken seriously. Most of the other quotes came from a guy who was of the opinion that if you still find easy mode too hard you should try adopting a more tactical approach the game. Then there was another quote saying that without challenge you may be missing half the fun which is once again just an opinion.