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[IntoTheDarkness]

 

 

BW games in general, especially the Mass Effect series, try too much to cater player's power fantasy; that is, whatever decisions you make are correct and without 'real' consequences; you can always predict the outcome and you never get penalized for wrong decision for there are no wrong decisions.

 

This leads to three problems. Decisions are largely pointless other than shaping your world as you see fit and piling renegade/paragon points. In BW games you are not an actor in a play but a demi-god with invincible plot armor and unfair advantage. Why should my protagonist prevail through every trap that he was tricked into?

 

The second problem is that there is no sense of danger or weight felt on making decisions.

 

Lastly, many decisions are parallel and mirroring of one another; you save A or B; you help A or B. The results are the same all but in the character present in the next scene. I don't understand why Kaiden had to act like a clone Ashley if we save him in ME1.

 

The Witcher 2 is a good example that does much better job on this. In Act 2 I decided to insult Iorveth when I was surrounded by his lackeys, and the result was an instant death with arrows through Geralt's chest. In the same act, I was investigating the poisoning of Saskia; I had choices to interview over 10 individuals. (two character who reveal important secrets are not even on the scene nor hinted at. You have to THINK for once by yourself and search them out at their place without the game holding your hand if you want truth) I walked up to a guy, and started asking questions. I exhausted all the dialogue trees to extract as much information as possible. When I tried to talk to a second witness, bam! Peasants started a riot and dragged Prince Stannis out of his quarter, forcing me to make a decision on spot without knowing ANYTHING about the situation; I dragged on my first interview for too long and the time ran out without the game hinting me about this. Both cases were pleasant surprises and I felt Geralt as more of a living character than a demi god of Bioware games protagonists.

 

I think Bioware games lack bad/unpredictable consequences in choices. Thoughts?

[SporkFu]

I dunno, a person can choose to reduce their choices to a difference in war assets if they want to, but I'll say this... I've never shot Mordin, I've never sabotaged the genophage cure when Wrex survived on Virmire. I've never let Samara shoot herself. I've never let Garrus shoot Sidonis I may have done that. I've always saved Admiral Koris. I've always had a beer with Gianna Parasini on Ilium. I've always pushed that Eclipse merc out the window. I've never let Kal'Reegar die.... and I never will. I've always sent David Archer to Grissom Academy, even in my ultra-rare renegade games. I have never shoved a gun in Conrad's face.   ... I'm sure there are dozens of other decisions like that... and they all shape the way my game plays out. I'm okay with that. 

[Excella Gionne]

If Witcher is a game that was planned out more instead of being added on upon through development, then yes, it would be significantly better at decision making. Mass Effect suffered from fan-service, short development time, and an incomplete story of the entire trilogy. The other things are just sub-categories.  

[Excella Gionne]

I dunno, a person can choose to reduce their choices to a difference in war assets if they want to, but I'll say this... I've never shot Mordin, I've never sabotaged the genophage cure when Wrex survived on Virmire. I've never let Samara shoot herself. I've never let Garrus shoot Sidonis I may have done that. I've always saved Admiral Koris. I've always had a beer with Gianna Parasini on Ilium. I've always pushed that Eclipse merc out the window. I've never let Kal'Reegar die.... and I never will. I've always sent David Archer to Grissom Academy, even in my ultra-rare renegade games. I have never shoved a gun in Conrad's face.   ... I'm sure there are dozens of other decisions like that... and they all shape the way my game plays out. I'm okay with that. 

I've done all of those besides what you crossed out. I could never really do it... out of all decisions, I can't shoot Sidonis. What?

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

1) I've shoved a gun in Conrad's face

2) I've helped Helena Blake establish her criminal empire

3) I let Toombs shoot the scientist

4) I've killed Balak

5) I've sacrificed the council.

6) I've given that batarian a taste of his own medicine

7) I threatened to break Harrot's legs

8) I told Sgt. Cathka he was working too hard

9) I kicked Conrad in the groin

10) I threw the merc out the window

11) I had a beer with Parasini

12) I had Miranda kill Niket

13) I taught Jack that "a bullet in the head solves everything." - "I know that now." Jack replied.

14) Which reminds me that I talked Saren into doing the galaxy a favor.

15) I've beat the crap out of Elias Kelham

16) I've always let Garrus shoot Sidonis (a bullet in the head solves everything)

17) I've all but once let Zaeed kill Vido ("Fry you son of a b*tch!" is just too good to miss)

18) I've faked the genophage cure

19) I've shot Ashley while wearing Cerberus armor

20) I've shot Legion 3 times

21) One time I left David Archer with Cerberus

22) And in my last play of ME3 Liara didn't even show me the time capsule. She was mad at me for going back to Thane.

 

But I never, ever let Samara kill herself or killed Falare.

[SporkFu]

I've done all of those besides what you crossed out. I could never really do it... out of all decisions, I can't shoot Sidonis. What?

I probably let him shoot Sidonis in my most recent renegade run, but Garrus died on the suicide mission then, so I kinda forgot about him, heh. 

[RatThing]

The suicide mission had some of these consequences, didn't it? If you chose the wrong person for a job, someone dies. Also, romancing Morinth. I wouldn't mind more of those bad unpredictable consequences, but in the hands of writers like Weekes they'd be probably ideologically motivated. Partly you can already see that in the game. You sabotage the cure with Wrex and he comes to hunt Shepard down. You decide to not upload the reaper code on Rannoch and the Geth almost strangles Shepard to death. With this kind of bad consequences Shepard probably would get killed in those situations and you'd have to reload and make the "right choice".

[SporkFu]

1) I've shoved a gun in Conrad's face

9) I kicked Conrad in the groin

Verner no like you   ... nah, who am I kidding. He'll forgive you. 

[ZipZap2000]

Didn't save the Rachni Queen? Chose to let the clone live? A lot of people die.

 

Let Rana Thanoptis live? Twice? Good one Shep now she's blowing up Asari high command coz she's indoctrinated.

 

Tried to romance Morinth? Critical mission failure you're dead.

 

Didn't upgrade your shields? Thought you were fine without them? Nope jack just got her skull crushed by a falling beam.

 

Gave Alenko some booze to cheer him up? Now you have to deal with his awful attempt to romance you.

 

Didn't save Aresh on Pragia? People die.

 

Didn't save Kal Reegar? People die.

 

Decided to go do a couple of extra missions before hitting Omega4 relay? Everyone except Chakwas is now dead.

 

Didn't cure the Genophage? People die.

 

Chose to wait till later to do Grissom academy? Children die.

 

Chose to wait to do Tuchanka bomb? People die.

 

Chose destroy? EDI and the Geth are dead.

 

Rewrote the heretics? A lot of Quarians die.

 

Chose not to save the council? 10,000 people die.

 

Chose the Geth over the Quarians? Genocide and extinction.

 

Didn't do up your paragon options? Wrex dies.

 

Didn't save Maelons data? Eve dies.

 

Didn't do thanes loyalty and he dies in ME2? Salarian councillor is dead.

 

Didn't save Kirrahe? Salarian councillor is dead.

[RatThing]

Didn't save the Rachni Queen? Chose to let the clone live? A lot of people die.

 

Let Rana Thanoptis live? Twice? Good one Shep now she's blowing up Asari high command coz she's indoctrinated.

 

Tried to romance Morinth? Critical mission failure you're dead.

 

Didn't upgrade your shields? Thought you were fine without them? Nope jack just got her skull crushed by a falling beam.

 

Gave Alenko some booze to cheer him up? Now you have to deal with his awful attempt to romance you.

 

Didn't save Aresh on Pragia? People die.

 

Didn't save Kal Reegar? People die.

 

Decided to go do a couple of extra missions before hitting Omega4 relay? Everyone except Chakwas is now dead.

 

Didn't cure the Genophage? People die.

 

Chose to wait till later to do Grissom academy? Children die.

 

Chose to wait to do Tuchanka bomb? People die.

 

Chose destroy? EDI and the Geth are dead.

 

Rewrote the heretics? A lot of Quarians die.

 

Chose not to save the council? 10,000 people die.

 

Chose the Geth over the Quarians? Genocide and extinction.

 

Didn't do up your paragon options? Wrex dies.

 

Didn't save Maelons data? Eve dies.

 

Didn't do thanes loyalty and he dies in ME2? Salarian councillor is dead.

 

Didn't save Kirrahe? Salarian councillor is dead.

I think he talks about immediate ingame consequences on your Shepard (and perhaps on your team). That's how I understood it based on the examples he gave. As such would qualify romancing Morinth, the suicide mission and perhaps Wrex's death on Virmire or Tali's death on Tuchanka.

[themikefest]

Let Miranda die on Horizon even though she was loyal and told about Leng and gave her access

 

watched Oriana(Miranda's sister) and father die

 

had General Oraka killed

 

let the female student on Grissom die by not helping her

 

let Garrus kill the kid that wanted to be a merc

 

didn't help Gianna. She didn't like that

 

didn't help Jenna which led to Conrad dying in ME3

 

didn't tell Kelly to change her identity which led to her being killed

 

was upset at Kelly for spyiing on me which led to her killing herself

 

kill Toombs and the scientist

 

I've done all the stuff people have posted above.

[KrrKs]

[...] Decisions are largely pointless other than shaping your world as you see fit

Wait, what?

 

On topic:

I am completely against unpredictable consequences! The whole point of making choices is to choose (witcher term) "the lesser evil" -which includes in both series taking calculated risks. I wouldn't mind these risks biting me in the back a bit more often¹, but not in an unpredictable or non-causal way.

 

¹They actually do quite often -see ZipZaps list

 

Addendum: While the Witcher's ingame choices seem quite meaningful (I have only the first one to base this on), the import into the next game disregards pretty much all choices from what I've heard -even more than the ME games did, so there is that (necessary) trade-of.

[Excella Gionne]

 

 

kill Toombs and the scientist

 

Toombs is a dick in ME2. I think I'll kill him once I get to him.

[themikefest]

Toombs is a dick in ME2. I think I'll kill him once I get to him.

I don't remember him in ME2 unless you mean the email. 

[Excella Gionne]

I shot Anderson... he's not going to have a hole in his abdomen but an even bigger hole. I think this one of the best decisions I've ever made.

[Excella Gionne]

I don't remember him in ME2. I remember him in ME1.

Lol! Well, I'm a Lone Survivor Shep. Toombs send you a threatening message about you being serious and that he'll kill you if he sees you again. Good thing you took care of that.

[themikefest]

I shot Anderson... he's not going to have a hole in his abdomen but an even bigger hole. I think this one of the best decisions I've ever made.

 

Are you going to have  a screenshot showing TIM killing Anderson?

[Excella Gionne]

Are you going to have  a screenshot showing TIM killing Anderson?

Nah, it's the gun in my hand that does that.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

You really should do that. Have a screeny of TIM shooting Anderson. It would be a first. BE THE FIRST.

 

That is unless you want to leave that for Darya. I haven't started my ME2 play yet so it's going to be a while.

[Lennard Testarossa]

He's completely right in the sense that being a perfect Paragon always leads to an ideal outcome. I can't remember a single instance in the entire trilogy where being the Knight in Shining Armor doesn't yield perfect results.

 

Sure, there are individual instances where ****** up or not doing certain quests leads to problems, but if you do all quests as a perfect Paragon, you get ideal results across the board. There is no point in making sacrifices or weighing your options if you are living in a universe where there is no such thing as a necessary sacrifice.

[themikefest]

TIM shoots Anderson

Spoiler

[wolfhowwl]

No the biggest fault with Mass Effect was that there was never a planned-out, cohesive vision for what the series was going to be.

Even the individual games seem to have a bit of an identity crisis as well.

[Reorte]

22) And in my last play of ME3 Liara didn't even show me the time capsule. She was mad at me for going back to Thane.

It would be great if you did that, chose Refuse, and the Stargazer scene was all about that character saying what a jerk this Shepard person sounded like.

[SporkFu]

It would be great if you did that, chose Refuse, and the Stargazer scene was all about that character saying what a jerk this Shepard person sounded like.

Stargazer: Would you like to hear another story about The Shepard? 

Kid: Nah, he was just a big dumb jerk who caused trillions to die because he didn't step up to the plate when it really mattered.

Stargazer: But... my sweet... he was The Shepard. 

Kid: Who cares? Tell me the one about Prothy The Prothean instead.

Stargazer: Again? 

Kid: Yeah!

Stargazer: well, it's getting late... but alright. Prothy lived in a time long before The Shepard, but climbed into his refigerator when the reapers began killing everyone. The Shepard found him and thawed him out, and he eventually became King of the Hanar. 

Kid: Yay!

Stargazer *smiles*: And what did the hanar do? 

Kid: They saved us all! Praise be to the Enkindlers.

Stargazer: Praise be, indeed. 

[angol fear]

The witcher and Mass Effect aren't the same story, they don't use their gameplay the same way because it's not the same story. The gameplay of Mass Effect fit to its story and its writing. The Witcher is another way (which fits most to what the players think a choice is, when actually both are good, and Mass effect makes sense) to use the gameplay.