176 réponses à ce sujet

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The exact quote is :

 

"And So is the Golden City blackened
With each step you take in my Hall.
Marvel at perfection, for it is fleeting.
You have brought Sin to Heaven
And doom upon all the world."

 

Obviously "sin" is something of an abstract concept. For there to be a physical reaction like the blight's corruption, I suspect there would need to be a more concrete cause, even if it's something as simple as "mortals aren't meant to go there." And hence the religious text of the Chant of Light ended up conflating that with the Magisters' hubris.

[raging_monkey]

Closet i can think of a mircale was her rallying disapate groups to take on tevinter and arguably "win"

[Spaghetti_Ninja]

Obviously do you not recall that verse from the chant?

 

"Marvel at my halls for their perfection is fleeting, you have brought sin to heaven and thus destroyed it."

 

Which is directly at odds with Coryphus' account of what happened - the city was already black when they got there. Meaning they never even witnessed the halls being perfect, not even fleetingly. He might have been lying, but what would he have to gain by that? He was too full of himself to bother with deception, until afterwards when it turned out the ''inferiors'' kicked his ass.

 

They might have tainted the city by their very presence the second they got there, or it always was black.But it probably wasn't a gradual process.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

He doesn't say the city was already black.

 

He says "But it was black...corrupted....darkness ever since" that could mean either it turned black when he got there or that it was always black.

[MisterJB]

Also causing a drought would have killed more than just the opposing army, i mean... people who lived within the imperium as well as those who needed their crops to survive or supplement their own lands food supply would have likely starved too. What about the innocent people in the imperium, those who had no say in the matter of who was a slave or who wasn't, why would the maker allow his girlfriend to hurt so many while spouting his supposed truth about getting everyone to abandon their false gods and turn back to him? 

This is the same god that, according to the Chantry, created the Darkspawn because five Magisters entered his home.

[myahele]

I'm not too sure how it went exactly, but it was regarding a wyvern. Basically, she, Mafareth and maybe Shartan encountered a wyvern. Mafareth was gonna kill it. Instead Andraste sang and the wyvern became docile (and all the animals flocked to her). This wyvern then became a loyal mount to Andraste or Mafareth.

Other words, she was a disney Princess.

[Spaghetti_Ninja]

He doesn't say the city was already black.

 

He says "But it was black...corrupted....darkness ever since" that could mean either it turned black when he got there or that it was always black.

 

But that also implies he never saw it being golden, even for a second. There was never any heavenly perfection to be seen during their stay. So that's one part the Chantry is wrong about.

 

Well, it's just a small detail.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

But that also implies he never saw it being golden, even for a second. There was never any heavenly perfection to be seen. So that's one part the Chantry is wrong about.

 

Or it could imply that it was black "ever since." His description is ambiguous.

[TheJediSaint]

This is the same god that, according to the Chantry, created the Darkspawn because five Magisters entered his home.

Serves them right for trespassing.

[Spaghetti_Ninja]

Or it could imply that it was black "ever since." His description is ambiguous.

 

I think he was talking about the distant view on the city from the Fade, since they only visited the city once.

 

We are talking about the same thing. It's just that the Chantry claims the Magisters saw the city itself turn from gold to black when they entered:

 

 

With each step you take in my Hall.

Marvel at perfection, for it is fleeting.

 

But there was no marveling, because it turned black instantly. Or always was. Otherwise I think Coryphus would have mentioned his first impression differently.

[Icy Magebane]

The exact quote is :

 

"And So is the Golden City blackened
With each step you take in my Hall.
Marvel at perfection, for it is fleeting.
You have brought Sin to Heaven
And doom upon all the world."

 

Obviously "sin" is something of an abstract concept. For there to be a physical reaction like the blight's corruption, I suspect there would need to be a more concrete cause, even if it's something as simple as "mortals aren't meant to go there." And hence the religious text of the Chant of Light ended up conflating that with the Magisters' hubris.

Whether the Maker directly or indirectly created Darkspawn is kind of beside the point... it also assumes that he's real, which isn't necessarily true.  My point was that if the Maker cared at all about innocent people dying, he would have "made" something to counter to Darkspawn, or at the very least "made" something that would help stop them from spreading.  Random casualties from a drought are nothing to a god who either created Darkspawn or sat back and watched them indiscriminately attack mortals for centuries.  The Maker has a very low tolerance for his creations' follies and doesn't seem to value them individually.  That's just how he rolls.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I think he was talking about the distant view on the city from the Fade, since they only visited the city once.

 

We are talking about the same thing. It's just that the Chantry claims the Magisters saw the city itself turn from gold to black when they entered:

 

 

 

But there was no marveling, because it turned black instantly. Or always was.

 

Of course he doesn't quote the Chant of Light verbatim or anything. But then why would he ever think it was golden if it was always black since you can see the Black City from the fade?

[Lazarillo]

My point was that if the Maker cared at all about innocent people dying, he would have "made" something to counter to Darkspawn, or at the very least "made" something that would help stop them from spreading. 

 

Well, who's to say the Maker didn't make Gray Wardens?  I mean, by all accounts, the contents of that big cup during the Joining are pretty precise.  Gotta wonder how the first Wardens figured out the right ratios, among other things...

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Whether the Maker directly or indirectly created Darkspawn is kind of beside the point... it also assumes that he's real, which isn't necessarily true.  My point was that if the Maker cared at all about innocent people dying, he would have "made" something to counter to Darkspawn, or at the very least "made" something that would help stop them from spreading.  Random casualties from a drought are nothing to a god who either created Darkspawn or sat back and watched them indiscriminately attack mortals for centuries.  The Maker has a very low tolerance for his creations' follies and doesn't seem to value them individually.  That's just how he rolls.

 

My point was that the Chantry's position on the issue is that he's entirely cut off from humanity and doesn't interact with them for good or ill. The darkspawn weren't specifically a punishment from him.

[Icy Magebane]

Well, who's to say the Maker didn't make Gray Wardens?  I mean, by all accounts, the contents of that big cup during the Joining are pretty precise.  Gotta wonder how the first Wardens figured out the right ratios, among other things...

I think we're splitting hairs now...

[Icy Magebane]

My point was that the Chantry's position on the issue is that he's entirely cut off from humanity and doesn't interact with them for good or ill. The darkspawn weren't specifically a punishment from him.

The OP, however, brought up the idea that the Maker was somehow at fault for supporting Andraste and allowing innocents to die as the result of her crusade.  The drought was specifically mentioned as it affected more than just the soldiers who relied on those crops.  The Maker described by the Chantry does not care about such things, so there is no grounds to condemn his behavior in this instance... it's totally in line with his personality.

[Master Warder Z_]

The OP, however, brought up the idea that the Maker was somehow at fault for supporting Andraste and allowing innocents to die as the result of her crusade.

 

It's not a ridiculous notion i suppose...But it is as you said within character of the God, but honestly i think it's up to the people themselves if they feel that way, if they did why would they adopt the God? Honestly how do you strike at  a God?

 

Mortal opponents are much easier.

 

I have family members who still want revenge for Dresden despite them being in their 90s now...They can achieve that revenge if they wish to, either against the institutions that ordered it or people directly responsible assuming they still live.

 

But honestly apart from striking at the Chantry how would one attack the Maker for those deaths? He isn't a government, a state or a mass of land.

 

He is a Deity.

[animedreamer]

the biggest miracle she performed was getting something done without being

 

A. The protagonist of a game

B. A female elf

Can't get enough of that elf hating.. You'd think with the Gaider-verse having been saved by a elf twice in recent history, people would have eased up on it.

[Steelcan]

Can't get enough of that elf hating.. You'd think with the Gaider-verse having been saved by a elf twice in recent history, people would have eased up on it.

I'm getting sick of elves in DA

 

Fiona, Briala, Garahel, that new one that starts with an I, Tallis, BioWare's default warden is an elf

 

 

its time they let a non-elf have a shot in the books

[I SOLD MY SOUL TO BIOWARE]

its time they let a non-elf have a shot in the books

 

Every POV character in Asunder was human...Rhys, Evangeline, Cole...or a spirit, I guess.

 

Are we ignoring them?

[Master Warder Z_]

I'm getting sick of elves in DA

 

Fiona, Briala, Garahel, that new one that starts with an I, Tallis, BioWare's default warden is an elf

 

 

its time they let a non-elf have a shot in the books

 

Damn straight.

 

Apparently if you aren't King Maric you cannot do anything if you don't have pointy ears.

[Steelcan]

Every POV character in Asunder was human from what I remember...Rhys, Evangeline, Cole...

that's not my point.

 

The ones whoa re saving the world, starting rebellions, etc... elves

[I SOLD MY SOUL TO BIOWARE]

that's not my point.

 

The ones whoa re saving the world, starting rebellions, etc... elves

 

Maric? Loghain? Duncan? 

[Steelcan]

Maric? Loghain? Duncan? 

Loghain is also a villain who played second fiddle to Maric, Maric falls for...*drumroll* an elf, and Duncan dies in the first two hours of the first game, I know he's one of the comics but I don't know more beyond that

[Master Warder Z_]

that's not my point.

 

The ones whoa re saving the world, starting rebellions, etc... elves

 

 

Basically just replace Paddling with elf and you have an adequate comparison.