176 réponses à ce sujet

[Dusksworn]

Alright, at this point I have to ask exactly what it is that you find so offensive about the Andrastian faith, because I simply do not understand what you're getting at... you don't understand why people would leave the Qun, a philosophy (not a religion) that dictates who you are, who you will become, what you will do, who you will marry, where you will live, and every other aspect of your life from birth until death?  Seriously, you don't see any reason why people would not want to live that way...?  At most, the Chantry can be accused of worshiping a god that they can't prove is real.  That's it.  I don't see any oppression of the common people or anything at all that would cause people to question the Maker or the Chantry's teachings... perhaps if there is a scientific revolution in the near future, then you might see people questioning the Maker, but this is a medieval society we're talking about.  Unless I'm missing something, there is no reason for them to abandon their religion.

Also, the Chantry largely protected against being ruled by Mages, like every single other culture that doesn't have safeguards against that.

 

For most of its history, Thedas has been ruled by Mages. The only cultures that haven't been were ones that either haven't had mages or had rules in place to keep them out of positions of authority.

 

People sometimes assume that the Chantry is why people hate Mages, but that's not really true. The people are why the Chantry hates Mages. For most of recorded Human history, Mages were tyrants who cruelly oppressed and used them.

 

We don't know much of Elven history, but I'm suspicious of the claim that they were once all Mages. It makes me wonder if non-mages were simply considered to be less than true elves.

[X Equestris]

All I asked is why people continue to follow the Andrastian faith, if what they've done would be considered inhuman in terms of morality, and its worship of "a absentee father figure" who like some in this thread have said is the source of much of humanity and the rest of the worlds if true plight. In fact my problem isnt even with the faith, but with the Maker. The faith is at least charitable, having offered education to the masses, feeding the hungry, accepting pretty much anyone who walks through the door, though its questionable whether or not they treat all people equally in terms of their charitable work and acceptance into the hierarchy of their religion. The Maker has done nothing it seems but punish his supposed creations, and still shows no signs of his actual existence or his willingness to return to them. Stranger still his first children seem to outright deny his existence.
 
Is it so wrong to question things?

The spirits don't know whether or not he exists. Demons don't care.

[Master Warder Z_]

We don't know much of Elven history, but I'm suspicious of the claim that they were once all Mages. It makes me wonder if non-mages were simply considered to be less than true elves.

 

Honestly you know what would be the best part of Thedas?

 

If the humans were merely repeating what was done to non magi elves before the Imperium came.

[raging_monkey]

Honestly you know what would be the best part of Thedas? If the humans were merely repeating what was done to non magi elves before the Imperium came.

then by that logic the qun would come and then we just have the same deal but qun'd. Thats my interpetation lol

[Dusksworn]

Honestly you know what would be the best part of Thedas?

 

If the humans were merely repeating what was done to non magi elves before the Imperium came.

Maybe.

 

Thedas has enough crap going on that I doubt Elves were entirely innocent of. It wouldn't fit the setting if they were a beacon of moral purity and perfection in the old days.

 

As such, I sort of have suspicions that the Elvish leaders may have been Blood Mages who fed on the lives of their subjects to bolster their own, and that it may have been partly due to an internal rebellion that Humanity was able to get the upperhand against a culture so much more sophisticated and powerful than their own.

[Master Warder Z_]

Sometimes i think Dragon Age already has the ideal solution (See what i did there? )in place.

 

The elves are already in the Ghetto's.

[Dusksworn]

Sometimes i think Dragon Age already has the ideal solution (See what i did there? )in place.

 

The elves are already in the Ghetto's.

I am not sure I like what you're implying.

[raging_monkey]

I am not sure I like what you're implying.

neither am i.. hard to tell when he jokes

[Master Warder Z_]

I am not sure I like what you're implying.

 

._. it was a reference to the placement of inferiors into housing outside of respectable society.

 

More or less what Humans in Thedosian society believe.

 

So while sure, it may be a throw back to dark days of our own world, it wouldn't be out of place in Thedas.

 

I bet they would dig national socialism over there...think of the possibilities!

[SgtSteel91]

Is there a way to block people and never see any of their posts?

[Dusksworn]

._. it was a reference to the placement of inferiors into housing outside of respectable society.

 

More or less what Humans in Thedosian society believe.

 

So while sure, it may be a throw back to dark days of our own world, it wouldn't be out of place in Thedas.

 

I bet they would dig national socialism over there...think of the possibilities!

Why bother? Elven genes are so recessive that they'll go extinct just on their own.

 

It's the Elves that need to worry about maintaining racial purity and keeping breeding programs or whatever.

[Master Warder Z_]

Is there a way to block people and never see any of their posts?

 

Yes!

 

What do you is click the little itty bitty x beneath the post you don't happen to care for and that person is removed from your viewing.

 

Sort of, it still indicates who posted.

[Master Warder Z_]

Why bother? Elven genes are so recessive that they'll go extinct just on their own.

 

It's the Elves that need to worry about maintaining racial purity and keeping breeding programs or whatever.

 

Mmm, You have a point but i wouldn't mind another empire rising over Thedas.

 

Tevinter may have absolute crap to the local populace but it pushed them towards the creation of their own nation states in some cases, resulting in unification of what was essentially nomadic barbarians.

 

Just think about what another Empire could bring? A universal language, currency, religion, all the things i actually wish to see in our reality, could happen in Thedas!

 

:/ All the things i will never live to see in this world, could be made real in fiction.

[Icy Magebane]

All I asked is why people continue to follow the Andrastian faith, if what they've done would be considered inhuman in terms of morality, and its worship of "a absentee father figure" who like some in this thread have said is the source of much of humanity and the rest of the worlds if true plight. In fact my problem isnt even with the faith, but with the Maker. The faith is at least charitable, having offered education to the masses, feeding the hungry, accepting pretty much anyone who walks through the door, though its questionable whether or not they treat all people equally in terms of their charitable work and acceptance into the hierarchy of their religion. The Maker has done nothing it seems but punish his supposed creations, and still shows no signs of his actual existence or his willingness to return to them. Stranger still his first children seem to outright deny his existence.

 

Is it so wrong to question things?

Not at all.  The problem is attempting to raise questions about a fictional world without considering the perspective of the citizens of that world.

 

First off, I'm not sure exactly what inhuman or immoral acts you believe the Chantry has engaged in, but the vast majority of Andrastians are human peasants, many of whom are uneducated and illiterate.  Anything that doesn't concern them directly is going to be considered irrelevant and may even be dismissed as rumors.  Since I can't think of any Chantry actions that have negatively effected the commoners or nobility, I'll just leave it at that and hope that answer is sufficient.

 

You generally mention Fade creatures denying the Maker, but this is not a common stance among spirits and demons.  The original DA:A Justice claimed that he did not know whether or not the Maker was real, and gave us no reason to believe that he felt strongly about it one way or the other.  This is consistent with the story that the Maker left all of his creations behind and almost never interacts with them.  Whether the spirits and demons we've encountered have been truthful the few times they were questioned on this is debatable.  Most mages in Thedas, even the Dalish, believe that spirits are almost always attempting to trick them for one reason or another.  In DA2, Merrill said that the Keeper trained her to never trust what she saw or heard in the Fade, regardless of what type of spirit she happened to meet there.  How then can we observe the situation from the outside and conclude that the spirits and demons are telling the truth when the characters who inhabit the world refuse to take their statements at face value?  Beyond that, I have to ask how any of that would matter to the common folk of Thedas, who know nothing of the Fade or spirits.  They are never in a position to ask them anything and thus the spirits are in no position to make them question their religion...

 

All in all, it seems pretty simple to me: the Chantry causes no harm to the citizens of Thedas, and by your own admission they engage in charitable acts.  There is simply no reason for the commoners to turn away from the Maker at this point...  the Maker himself may not be very helpful to the people, but the Chantry is.  Therefore, the people of Thedas will likely continue to worship the Chantry's god unless something unpredictable occurs...

[Dusksworn]

Mmm, You have a point but i wouldn't mind another empire rising over Thedas.

 

Tevinter may have absolute crap to the local populace but it pushed them towards the creation of their own nation states in some cases, resulting in unification of what was essentially nomadic barbarians.

 

Just think about what another Empire could bring? A universal language, currency, religion, all the things i actually wish to see in our reality, could happen in Thedas!

 

:/ All the things i will never live to see in this world, could be made real in fiction.

The Qunari seem to want that sort of thing. However, I'm not sure I like their methods of bringing such a world about.

 

 

Not at all.  The problem is attempting to raise questions about a fictional world without considering the perspective of the citizens of that world.

 

First off, I'm not sure exactly what inhuman or immoral acts you believe the Chantry has engaged in, but the vast majority of Andrastians are human peasants, many of whom are uneducated and illiterate.  Anything that doesn't concern them directly is going to be considered irrelevant and may even be dismissed as rumors.  Since I can't think of any Chantry actions that have negatively effected the commoners or nobility, I'll just leave it at that and hope that answer is sufficient.

 

You generally mention Fade creatures denying the Maker, but this is not a common stance among spirits and demons.  The original DA:A Justice claimed that he did not know whether or not the Maker was real, and gave us no reason to believe that he felt strongly about it one way or the other.  This is consistent with the story that the Maker left all of his creations behind and almost never interacts with them.  Whether the spirits and demons we've encountered have been truthful the few times they were questioned on this is debatable.  Most mages on Thedas, even the Dalish, believe that spirits are almost always attempting to trick them for one reason or another.  In DA2, Merrill said that the Keeper trained her to never trust what she saw or heard in the Fade, regardless of what type of spirit she happened to meet there.  How then can we observe the situation from the outside and conclude that the spirits and demons are telling the truth when the characters who inhabit the world refuse to take their statements at face value?  Beyond that, I have to ask how any of that would even matter to the common folk of Thedas, who know nothing of the Fade or spirits.  They are never in a position to ask them anything and thus the spirits are in no position to make them question their religion...

 

All in all, it seems pretty simple to me: the Chantry causes no harm to the citizens of Thedas, and by your own admission they engage in charitable acts.  There is simply no reason for the commoners to turn away from the Maker at this point...

 

Well, they might turn away from the Maker because someone else offered them shinier stuff!
 

[Master Warder Z_]

The Qunari seem to want that sort of thing. However, I'm not sure I like their methods of bringing such a world about.

 

I personally think Orlais could do it better, and with more style.

[raging_monkey]

Mmm, You have a point but i wouldn't mind another empire rising over Thedas. Tevinter may have absolute crap to the local populace but it pushed them towards the creation of their own nation states in some cases, resulting in unification of what was essentially nomadic barbarians. Just think about what another Empire could bring? A universal language, currency, religion, all the things i actually wish to see in our reality, could happen in Thedas! :/ All the things i will never live to see in this world, could be made real in fiction.

thats kinda bad my friend diveristy is what makes unique goodor bad. If the qun did this you'd have sword ready but because the chantry strives for your for it... most curious

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Nobody is reigning over all Thedas. At any point.

[Icy Magebane]

Well, they might turn away from the Maker because someone else offered them shinier stuff!
 

If the OP mentioned a new god taking the Maker's place, I might be able to understand their argument a bit more... as it stands, the argument is that humanity should turn away from the Maker simply because they can't prove he's real.  That's just not a conclusion that a medieval farmer is going to come to...  if the system works well, there is no reason to question it.  The Maker is the perfect god because he's not expected to answer anybody's prayers.  xD

[The Baconer]

I personally think Orlais could do it better, and with more style.

 

Those debased, flaccid dandies?

 

They share more in common with the magisters than they'd think... aside from the power, I suppose.

[TheKomandorShepard]

If the OP mentioned a new god taking the Maker's place, I might be able to understand their argument a bit more... as it stands, the argument is that humanity should turn away from the Maker simply because they can't prove he's real.  That's just not a conclusion that a medieval farmer is going to come to...  if the system works well, there is no reason to question it.  The Maker is the perfect god because he's not expected to answer anybody's prayers.  xD

If system worked well i wouldn't have to clean gigantic mess i rly hope they will me do purges in dai and replace that ruin with working system.

[Master Warder Z_]

Nobody is reigning over all Thedas. At any point.

 

We will see, this vacuum will eventually need to be filled.

 

Anarchy must eventually give way to order, and strength must someday replace weakness.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Nobody is strong enough to rule over all of it at once. It's too big and too diverse. It's unrealistic in real life and in Thedas.

[Icy Magebane]

If system worked well i wouldn't have to clean gigantic mess i rly hope they will me do purges in dai and replace that ruin with working system.

What are you talking about?  1000 years of unblemished success versus less than a decade of organized rebellion on the part of mages...  historically, the Chantry has done a fine job of protecting and guiding the common man.  You can't dismiss everything they've done to keep Thedas safe because of this ridiculous uprising...

[raging_monkey]

What are you talking about?  1000 years of unblemished success versus less than a decade of organized rebellion on the part of mages...  historically, the Chantry has done a fine job of protecting and guiding the common man.  You can't dismiss everything they've done to keep Thedas safe because of this ridiculous uprising...

even i agree with this why must it come to that