For a god that supposedly abandoned his creation, he has done more than the whole Elvish Pantheon who only the elves have ever known about and now forgotten but for some reason still try to hold onto scraps of information.
That's not true in the least! If you believe in the Elven Pantheon Fen'Harel has been actively screwing over the elves for thousands of years, that's a lot more effort than the Maker ever put into screwing over humanity.
maybe fen hareal is the maker or at least a aspect of himThat's not true in the least! If you believe in the Elven Pantheon Fen'Harel has been actively screwing over the elves for thousands of years, that's a lot more effort than the Maker ever put into screwing over humanity.
I just don't see how you can call the Chantry a "failure" when we consider that it did exist and that it did maintain order for centuries. It wasn't a perfect run, because as we both know, it only takes one mage to destroy a town under the right circumstances. The fact that the Chantry is directly responsible for preventing this from happening many times over cannot be overlooked. Every mage that they kept inside the Circle from discovery until death is a victory on their part, and you should give them credit for that. The same applies to the Qunari. Sure, the nations of Thedas might have eventually decided to work together against them once the first few nations fell, but the Chantry was there and organized the Exalted March in response to Qunari aggression. The fact that they are able to rally every nation in Thedas against their common enemies with no questions asked tells me that the Chantry had to have been doing something right for a very long time... if the system was as weak as you claim, it would not have lasted this long.
As i said dwarf caste system maintain orer for centuries as well and how it works/worked for them we know simple that there system exist doesn't mean it does good job.Simple as i said they are failures because they fail at their task to control mages i pointed huge flaws in system.Qunari aren't rly threat for humans qunari are threat for chantry so well and as i said chantry or not thedas would unite not mention that chantry had own episodes of agression.As i pointed look at orzammar and their system.
As i said dwarf caste system maintain orer for centuries as well and how it works/worked for them we know simple that there system exist doesn't mean it does good job.Simple as i said they are failures because they fail at their task to control mages i pointed huge flaws in system.Qunari aren't rly threat for humans qunari are threat for chantry so well and as i said chantry or not thedas would unite not mention that chantry had own episodes of agression.As i pointed look at orzammar and their system.
The caste system works fine though... it's barbaric, yes, but not intrinsically problematic. The darkspawn destroyed the dwarven empire, not infighting or rebellions due to the caste system...
Maybe.
Thedas has enough crap going on that I doubt Elves were entirely innocent of. It wouldn't fit the setting if they were a beacon of moral purity and perfection in the old days.
As such, I sort of have suspicions that the Elvish leaders may have been Blood Mages who fed on the lives of their subjects to bolster their own, and that it may have been partly due to an internal rebellion that Humanity was able to get the upperhand against a culture so much more sophisticated and powerful than their own.
That sounds more like you're projecting on to the Elves than anything else. Whether it was true or not, from what is said, and my other points before, the non human races lived pretty much fine on their own before the humans came along and tried to force their ways on them. Then openly admit according to their faith that "It was the hubris of men that brought about the Darkspawn."
The caste system works fine though... it's barbaric, yes, but not intrinsically problematic. The darkspawn destroyed the dwarven empire, not infighting or rebellions due to the caste system...
LoL from where you have that idea pretty much caste system was what was draging them slowly down because tradition says that dwarves are meh so lets abuse them instead using them pretty much what behlen who was smart used to improve orzammar not mention trade with humans. It was self-destructive system...
The caste system works fine though... it's barbaric, yes, but not intrinsically problematic. The darkspawn destroyed the dwarven empire, not infighting or rebellions due to the caste system...
Wouldn't nurturing one of the largest criminal organizations in Thedas be problematic?
Of course, even it it wasn't intrinsically problematic before, it sure as hell is now, given their current circumstances.
LoL from where you have that idea pretty much caste system was what was draging them slowly down because tradition says that dwarves are meh so lets abuse them instead using them pretty much what behlen who was smart used to improve orzammar not mention trade with humans. It was self-destructive system...
Eh... maybe it wasn't effective once the "empire" consisted of a single city, but before the darkspawn, the dwarves lived just fine with the caste system. Times change, and Orzammar had to change with them. That doesn't mean the caste system was a problem on it's own... it just isn't particularly compatible with a society facing extinction on multiple fronts.
Wouldn't nurturing one of the largest criminal organizations in Thedas be problematic?
Of course, even it it wasn't intrinsically problematic before, it sure as hell is now, given their current circumstances.
There will always be organized crime, no matter how a society is structured. I'm not willing to blame the caste system itself for the existence of the Carta since it's likely that something else would have risen in it's place from whatever poor class replaced the Casteless.
That sounds more like you're projecting on to the Elves than anything else. Whether it was true or not, from what is said, and my other points before, the non human races lived pretty much fine on their own before the humans came along and tried to force their ways on them. Then openly admit according to their faith that "It was the hubris of men that brought about the Darkspawn."
The Darkspawn are hardly the only crappy thing about Thedas.
The Dwarves and Qunari have their own very obvious ****, and I very much doubt the Elves had entirely clean hands. We just don't know much about them, except that at least some nobles had their throats slit by their servants while they were sleeping.
That's not true in the least! If you believe in the Elven Pantheon Fen'Harel has been actively screwing over the elves for thousands of years, that's a lot more effort than the Maker ever put into screwing over humanity.
Hmm... maybe I should have clarified it as being "has done more to help" or has done more positive things. The Maker has not been trying to screw over humanity. The darkspawn were a result of sin, not just something done for giggles.
The Pantheon and the Maker have both instructed the people and bestowed gifts, then they leave, the Maker comes back and helps against the Imperium, and the Pantheon only have the Dread Wolf to go around and mess with people.
True, that the Dread Wolf is constantly active, but the Maker is a more positive faith I'd say.
Eh... maybe it wasn't effective once the "empire" consisted of a single city, but before the darkspawn, the dwarves lived just fine with the caste system. Times change, and Orzammar had to change with them. That doesn't mean the caste system was a problem on it's own... it just isn't particularly compatible with a society facing extinction on multiple fronts.
As i said it doesn't matter system wasn't working it was as i said nothing than self-destructive system it was causing problems like it or not same is with circles it works poorly simple.Not mention that we don't know what was their society before as we know it has changed.
I just don't see how you can call the Chantry a "failure" when we consider that it did exist and that it did maintain order for centuries. It wasn't a perfect run, because as we both know, it only takes one mage to destroy a town under the right circumstances. The fact that the Chantry is directly responsible for preventing this from happening many times over cannot be overlooked. Every mage that they kept inside the Circle from discovery until death is a victory on their part, and you should give them credit for that. The same applies to the Qunari. Sure, the nations of Thedas might have eventually decided to work together against them once the first few nations fell, but the Chantry was there and organized the Exalted March in response to Qunari aggression. The fact that they are able to rally every nation in Thedas against their common enemies with no questions asked tells me that the Chantry had to have been doing something right for a very long time... if the system was as weak as you claim, it would not have lasted this long.
edit: Let me just add that although you may not care about charity, poor people do. Every hungry person the Chantry feeds is one less potential thief... in the short term at least. So these things do have a positive effect on society since they can help slightly lower the crime rate...
That is one of the oldest truths of religion though, "Faith controls the people," its hard to categorize why, as many factors could contribute to this, but the main point is, the masses that believe would want their leaders to rally and follow their faith, because it's that faith that keeps most of the masses in order and collared or docile. Fervent faith + huge populous = unpredictable horde, most nations likely knew that if the Chantry galvanized the populous to which were their followers the lords, and kings would have to follow suit simply to keep favor with their people. In this any wide spread religion is more powerful than any individual nation.
As i said it doesn't matter system wasn't working it was as i said nothing than self-destructive system it was causing problems like it or not same is with circles it works poorly simple.Not mention that we don't know what was their society before as we know it has changed.
Well, according to Bartrand, "Dwarves have been mired in tradition for many ages." The Lord Shaperate in Orzammar also talks about the birth of the Caste system and how the various cities were named for the brothers who founded the empire and the caste system... so it's been in place for a very long time. Long before the darkspawn. In all those centuries, nothing went wrong because the caste system is not a problem on its own.
There will always be organized crime, no matter how a society is structured. I'm not willing to blame the caste system itself for the existence of the Carta since it's likely that something else would have risen in it's place from whatever poor class replaced the Casteless.
There might always be organized crime, but that's not the same as having a society that actively enables it and allows it to become more robust.
I'm not going to blame the caste system for the Carta's existence either... but I will blame it for the Carta's resilience and its breadth.
The Darkspawn are hardly the only crappy thing about Thedas.
The Dwarves and Qunari have their own very obvious ****, and I very much doubt the Elves had entirely clean hands. We just don't know much about them, except that at least some nobles had their throats slit by their servants while they were sleeping.
The Darkspawn aren't the only bad thing but are the most serious threat to civilized Thedas, as its a threat right under their feet, that is being allowed to continue until it becomes a huge threat on the surface. Where as veil tears are largely undocumented as being such world shattering events until the time of Inquisition, to which we dont know why this is happening yet. The other dangers are just the risk known and accepted living in such a fantasy world. Dragons were nearly hunted into extinction, so that means humanity has the ability to kill and nearly wipe out the apex predators of that world, which in terms of transitive properties (I hope I'm using this correctly) means they can handle anything of equal danger and under. It's just a matter of doing it.
Well, according to Bartrand, "Dwarves have been mired in tradition for many ages." The Lord Shaperate in Orzammar also talks about the birth of the Caste system and how the various cities were named for the brothers who founded the empire and the caste system... so it's been in place for a very long time. Long before the darkspawn. In all those centuries, nothing went wrong because the caste system is not a problem on its own.
We know that pretty much their history lies a lot pretty much bartrand is confused that it isn't what their history claims , we also know that dwarven empire had slaves unlike now from corry.So there it seems to be a lot changes in their society.Also we know that caste system was for many ages it was active for centuries and as i said it worked poorly for them it wasn't effective even opposite.
That is one of the oldest truths of religion though, "Faith controls the people," its hard to categorize why, as many factors could contribute to this, but the main point is, the masses that believe would want their leaders to rally and follow their faith, because it's that faith that keeps most of the masses in order and collared or docile. Fervent faith + huge populous = unpredictable horde, most nations likely knew that if the Chantry galvanized the populous to which were their followers the lords, and kings would have to follow suit simply to keep favor with their people. In this any wide spread religion is more powerful than any individual nation.
Unless the Chantry makes an unlawful aggressive move against a nation and can't come up with a good justification, neither the rulers nor the people will have any reason to question them. The Chantry isn't attempting to do anything malevolent, or even unreasonably ambitious. They sit comfortably at the head of human civilization, and the majority of people they are involved with seem to actually like the arrangement. I am not saying that this can't change, because science tends to make people ask questions, and even in the context of this fictional world, certain magical discoveries would have the same effect. I am only saying that in the absence of some drastic change to humanity's perception of the world or the Fade, I see no motivation for the average citizen to question the Maker or the Chantry's will. They are completely benign towards non-mage humans, and occasionally even manage to convince mages that they're in the right.
There might always be organized crime, but that's not the same as having a society that actively enables it and allows it to become more robust.
I'm not going to blame the caste system for the Carta's existence either... but I will blame it for the Carta's resilience and its breadth.
The Caste system just gives the Carta ready recruits, just like any of the other Thedas nations that has its classes. It's more the monopoly on Lyrium and restricted trade with the surface that has allowed the Carta to flourish.
The Darkspawn aren't the only bad thing but are the most serious threat to civilized Thedas, as its a threat right under their feet, that is being allowed to continue until it becomes a huge threat on the surface. Where as veil tears are largely undocumented as being such world shattering events until the time of Inquisition, to which we dont know why this is happening yet. The other dangers are just the risk known and accepted living in such a fantasy world. Dragons were nearly hunted into extinction, so that means humanity has the ability to kill and nearly wipe out the apex predators of that world, which in terms of transitive properties (I hope I'm using this correctly) means they can handle anything of equal danger and under. It's just a matter of doing it.
The Darkspawn themselves are quite a different sort of threat from Dragons, and we're told they nearly bring Human civilization to ruin in most Blights.
Maybe Humans could wipe them out, but it might leave them and their kingdoms weak and exhausted when it was all over.
We know that pretty much their history lies a lot pretty much bartrand is confused that it isn't what their history claims , we also know that dwarven empire had slaves unlike now from corry.So there it seems to be a lot changes in their society.Also we know that caste system was for many ages it was active for centuries and as i said it worked poorly for them it wasn't effective even opposite.
In the beginning the Caste System seemed to work fine to my understanding, it wasn't until a more sever type of punishment was needed and the idea of stripping people of their caste came about, that Dwarven society started to take a tumble, as their was seemingly no way to undo this punishment, and it affected all people descended from the offender, and thus created more and more people who would then turn to whatever means to get by, hence more crime, hence more caste-less. The Dwarves created their own trap when they created the caste-less punishment, but the Caste system in of itself originally worked just fine. Now that i think about it, having had the casteless probably made those with caste even those of the servant caste feel more dignified and thus more accepting of their caste even if it meant they couldn't rise above it so easily, or had to do something they would have not wanted to do had they known of choice in deciding ones fortune or place in life. This is to say the fear of being removed from your caste probably kept the lower caste in check.
There might always be organized crime, but that's not the same as having a society that actively enables it and allows it to become more robust.
I'm not going to blame the caste system for the Carta's existence either... but I will blame it for the Carta's resilience and its breadth.
Well look, I'm not really trying to defend the caste system as an ideal means of government. In fact, the first thing I said was that I thought it was barbaric... I am simply saying that the dwarven empire's decline is in no way connected to the caste system. This is proven by the fact that the system continued for centuries without rebellion or interruption. Only after the darkspawn conquered all but 2 cities did anyone even consider making a minor alteration to it, and that might not have even happened in every timeline since only one candidate for King thought that was a good idea. (edit: In Orzammar. Who knows what it's like in Kal-Sharok... maybe they abandoned the system years ago... it's clearly not very efficient when the darkspawn are at the door)
The Caste system just gives the Carta ready recruits, just like any of the other Thedas nations that has its classes. It's more the monopoly on Lyrium and restricted trade with the surface that has allowed the Carta to flourish.
And the fact that most of the trading between the surface and Orzammar has to go through the Carta in one way or another, because no one is willing to do business directly with surface dwarves.
Their dumb-ass caste system pretty much made the Carta a necessity to maintaining their quality of life. To think, how much different things could be if they stopped putting stock in asinine bull****.
The Darkspawn themselves are quite a different sort of threat from Dragons, and we're told they nearly bring Human civilization to ruin in most Blights.
Maybe Humans could wipe them out, but it might leave them and their kingdoms weak and exhausted when it was all over.
They just need whatever enchantments or metal that First Enchanter Remille was able to produce with that dagger, mass produce it, and then the nations of Thedas can go on the offensive in the Deep Roads without all becoming ghouls.
Well look, I'm not really trying to defend the caste system as an ideal means of government. In fact, the first thing I said was that I thought it was barbaric... I am simply saying that Orzammar's decline is in no way connected to the caste system. This is proven by the fact that the system continued for centuries without rebellion or interruption. Only after the darkspawn conquered all but 2 cities did anyone even consider making a minor alteration to it, and that might not have even happened in every timeline since only one candidate for King thought that was a good idea. (edit: In Orzammar. Who knows what it's like in Kal-Sharok... maybe they abandoned the system years ago... it's clearly not very efficient when the darkspawn are at the door)
Right, and I agreed that it was not connected to the fall of the Dwarven empire, but it is certainly playing a part in Orzammar's current decline. Refer to my above post.
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