125 réponses à ce sujet

[Muspade]

Meh, I'd say Wynne's more unique cause she was actually brought back for near death, plus she's far more powerful than Anders so..

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I'm assuming this is some sort of head-canon or is there a source to suggest this?

[Lulupab]

I'm assuming this is some sort of head-canon or is there a source to suggest this?

We cannot claim that for sure but Wynne displays her power more than Anders because she actually gets into a fight with a pride demon and wins (winning versus a pride demon rarely happens) while Anders doesn't.

[Serza]

Demons definitely do not avoid tainted/Grey Warden Mages.

 

As was noted, in The Calling...

Spoiler

Fiona gets temporarily possessed, and the Demon we meet (I think it could be a Pride Demon from the description) claims he wanted Fiona specifically.

[Muspade]

We cannot claim that for sure but Wynne displays her power more than Anders because she actually gets into a fight with a pride demon and wins (winning versus a pride demon rarely happens) while Anders doesn't.

 

This must be in Asunder because the only Pride demon I recall her facing down was the one in the tower along with the warden. The more you know.

[myahele]

As far as I know she never fought with Uldread/Pride abomination. But she and her spirit was able to hold off a whole circle full of abomintion led by a pride demon.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

As far as I know she never fought with Uldread/Pride abomination. But she and her spirit was able to hold off a whole circle full of abomintion led by a pride demon.

The only way to avoid using her in that fight is to kill her, which clearly did not happen in the book canon. Therefore, she fought the Pride abomination.

[fhs33721]

As far as I know she never fought with Uldread/Pride abomination. But she and her spirit was able to hold off a whole circle full of abomintion led by a pride demon.

They are talkig about the book Asunder. Wynne (or rather faith) single-handedly defeats a demon in the fade. I don't think it is explicitly mentioned that it is a Pride demon, but it's demanor fits for one.

[TheJediSaint]

I'm assuming this is some sort of head-canon or is there a source to suggest this?

The Cool Old Lady perk gives a larger bonus to magic than Broody Rebel Mage does.

[Hellion Rex]

I don't think it is explicitly mentioned that it is a Pride demon, but it's demanor fits for one.

Something had changed within her. Gone was the old woman; instead a force radiated from within. She stood tall and defiant. “You are mistaken, creature of Pride.” Her voice rang out with unearthly power that pushed back the darkness. Adrian felt it pass through her soul like a cleansing wind.

[MACharlie1]

That ultimatum question cannot be asked because as I said its more complicated than that. Its really same as a person with two personalities. Conflicts might happen but ultimately they are the same and one. Using the "exist" word was wrong here. Justice does exist but he can only manifest himself through Anders' actions and thoughts and its nothing like this with Wynne and faith.


Its not for survival though. it usually happens when fighting Templars or witnessing oppression of mages.

I'm not saying it's a necessarily a survival reaction but it is a reaction of some sort. 

[leaguer of one]

But... Anders?

[Reptillius]

ok.  having read through this stuff.

 

We could argue that Grey Warden mages May get possessed left often for two reasons.  The first being that there is so few of them relatively speaking that we just don't hear about most cases and thus we get the impression that it doesn't happen to them much.  The Second being that the nature of being tainted and fighting off the whispers of the darkspawn actually helps to harden them mentally thus giving them stronger defenses against possession in general because their mental guard is always up.

 

On the second little thing that comes to mind for me.  Have any of you considered that in some respects the kind of hive affect going on. specially from Archdemon to darkspawn could itself be a form of possession and being already possessed instead of just touched by it is the reason that we've never heard of darkspawn turned abomination?

 

Third. There are minor details that do separate Wynne and Anders but they are both certainly abominations.  They are both inhabited by entities that have crossed the fade. they have both have positive aspect spirits as those entities.

 

Where they differ is how they reached across the fade to end up in this state, One went willingly and the other was dragged across as a side affect of a powerful veil breaching spell, And the fact that in Wynne's case Faith is usually a very passive partner to be paired with and in Anders Case both he and Anders can be very strong willed.  Rivalry just puts both of those strong wills into deeper contention showing that they are two joined entities rather than one where as Friendship puts them on a bit more compatible wavelength. This is pretty well backed up by Anders unique skill tree as well if you think about it. The fact that one side is a bit more in synch and aids and the other one is a bit more violent and confrontational and the two have things they can do that are exclusive to each other.

 

Both also have the same catch. Under normal and the most practical methods of removing said spirits from them is to actually kill the person and not the spirit.  We do not know that we couldn't pull off the ritual used on Conner and remove Justice from Anders.  From the way that DA:O states it. Few know that such a ritual is even possible. Jowen and Irving are the only two that speak of it with a certainty of being doable. Wynne speaks with experience that it's likely doable. The rest are uncertainly and mostly tell you to consult the circle.  The unfortunate side affect being that it would kill Justice.  Personally even tainted by Anders darker emotions I'd rather just kill Anders and free Justice back into the Fade that way.

[wcholcombe]

In last flight the character says grey wardens often become surrender and become abominations in order to take as much of the horde with them as possible in the end. Also a no name character becomes an abomination when fighting against the horde, so grey wardens definitely get possessed.

As for Wynne being an abomination, I actually don't agree with that. The technical definition is based on possession and where the demon/spirit is in control. Possession itself by its very nature requires the possessed person to no longer be in control. Wynne is still the same, ie she isn't possessed. Having a spirit support you doesn't make you an abomination.

[Lulupab]

This must be in Asunder because the only Pride demon I recall her facing down was the one in the tower along with the warden. The more you know.

Yeah its from Asunder. Anders does have a short story like all DA2 companions which is written to show what he was doing between Awakening and DA2. Some say its not canon but all short stories are canon. Merril has one, Isabela has one etc... it shows their past life before joining Hawke. Perhaps some details in it are not canon but the plot of story is. This is canon:

"A former templar, Rolan, infiltrates the Grey Warden ranks to keep a close watch on Anders. After Anders allows Justice to use his body as a host, Rolan accuses him of becoming an abomination and brings the templars down on him, stating that the Wardens agreed with the decision. Anders kills Rolan, the templars and the Wardens and flees."

This is what Anders was doing between the two games. Killing a squad of Templars is power display enough.

[Lulupab]

In last flight the character says grey wardens often become surrender and become abominations in order to take as much of the horde with them as possible in the end. Also a no name character becomes an abomination when fighting against the horde, so grey wardens definitely get possessed.
As for Wynne being an abomination, I actually don't agree with that. The technical definition is based on possession and where the demon/spirit is in control. Possession itself by its very nature requires the possessed person to no longer be in control. Wynne is still the same, ie she isn't possessed. Having a spirit support you doesn't make you an abomination.

People of Thedas and Chantry would still call her an abomination. She is only a technical abomination however, she doesn't act like them at all.

[fhs33721]

Something had changed within her. Gone was the old woman; instead a force radiated from within. She stood tall and defiant. “You are mistaken, creature of Pride.” Her voice rang out with unearthly power that pushed back the darkness. Adrian felt it pass through her soul like a cleansing wind.

I stand corrected.

[wcholcombe]

People of Thedas and Chantry would still call her an abomination. She is only a technical abomination however, she doesn't act like them at all.

1) The technical definition of an abomination still stipulates specifically-Possession. Wynne is not in any way shape or form possessed.

2)  Every description of abomination we have ever seen in game or even WoT states that when someone becomes an abomination all that they once were ceases to exist.  Wynne is very much herself throughout her story.

3)  I am pretty certain Justinia knew Wynne's circumstances, considering Wynne said she was chosen because of her special history of dealing with demons in the fade.

[Lulupab]

1) The technical definition of an abomination still stipulates specifically-Possession. Wynne is not in any way shape or form possessed.
2)  Every description of abomination we have ever seen in game or even WoT states that when someone becomes an abomination all that they once were ceases to exist.  Wynne is very much herself throughout her story.
3)  I am pretty certain Justinia knew Wynne's circumstances, considering Wynne said she was chosen because of her special history of dealing with demons in the fade.

Lol you don't need to convince me, I firmly believe she isn't an abomination but there is reason she hasn't told anyone but the warden. She has a fade entity residing in her, if by any event faith was corrupted wynne would become a rampaging abomination. But alas such thing never happens and Wynne remains herself.

Even Justice is docile most of them time and Anders is himself but their merger is much more complicated as I described in previous comments.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

1) The technical definition of an abomination still stipulates specifically-Possession. Wynne is not in any way shape or form possessed.

Except for having a spirit inside her stopping her from dying.

[wcholcombe]

Except for having a spirit inside her stopping her from dying.

Being supported by a fade spirit and being possessed are two entirely different things.

 

Spoiler

As shown by the fact that the spirit could be transferred to keep the templar alive in Asunder in the same way.  Considering one has to be a mage to be an abomination and the spirit has the same relationship to both, ergo not an abomination.

 

It isn't a big deal, I just find it insulting to Wynne to classify her as an abomination when she clearly is not.

 

Technically you could argue that Anders isn't, except he loses control and such a lot....

[Lulupab]

Faith spirits are fundamentally safer than Justice spirits because we know for a fact that spirits of Justice do everything in their power to uphold their name, even if they perish for it. That's certainly not the case for faith spirits.

[Roninbarista]

I thought with abominations, the host lost all control of their bodies and minds. Uldred ceased to exist as a person once he was possessed, right?

I saw Wynne and Anders slightly different from typical possessions. Both retained their personas, although Anders' merging was not not a complete merger. From his own perspective, Justice and he were one being, however, Justice has the ability to take over Ander's body suggesting they were not one being, but two. Justice simply chooses to be silent until he gets pissed, or desires a result Anders won't provide. They're kind of battling for the same body without Anders ever being completely gone. Anders says he doesn't know what happens until after Justice is done.

[Lulupab]

I thought with abominations, the host lost all control of their bodies and minds. Uldred ceased to exist as a person once he was possessed, right?
I saw Wynne and Anders slightly different from typical possessions. Both retained their personas, although Anders' merging was not not a complete merger. From his own perspective, Justice and he were one being, however, Justice has the ability to take over Ander's body suggesting they were not one being, but two. Justice simply chooses to be silent until he gets pissed, or desires a result Anders won't provide. They're kind of battling for the same body without Anders ever being completely gone. Anders says he doesn't know what happens until after Justice is done.

Anders himself explains when anger takes him over in a way that he loses himself Justice takes over. This is how it initially happens. If you go the friendship route this remains true, the codex even explains Anders have been able to bond with spirit within and only loses control when fighting templars which is understandable because his suppressed anger for Templars warped justice in the first place. He never forgets any moment in this route and its he who plans everything, even the chantry incident.

In rivalry Anders loses himself a lot more hence justice takes over on much more occasions. I'm guessing you only played rivalry as your comment implied it.

[Hellion Rex]

Being supported by a fade spirit and being possessed are two entirely different things.

Except she says it herself in Asunder....

“Is it true I’ve been possessed by a spirit? Yes, that is true.” Before he could ask another question, however, she held up a finger and smiled patiently.

 

"It provided the spark of life that was fading from me, and I think that’s where it remains. A part of me, of my soul.”

 

Sounds like possession to me.

[TheJediSaint]

Except she says it herself in Asunder....

“Is it true I’ve been possessed by a spirit? Yes, that is true.” Before he could ask another question, however, she held up a finger and smiled patiently.

 

"It provided the spark of life that was fading from me, and I think that’s where it remains. A part of me, of my soul.”

 

Sounds like possession to me.

I think Wynne's possession was more constructive than most.