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[lil yonce]

Here's what David Gaider said recently about blood magic in an interview with Lady Insanity:

 

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LI: Well, I did want to talk about the red lyrium, but I'm more interested in how blood magic works. There are a lot of...not "conflicting" opinions that we've heard from "oh, Bioware considers this" with blood magic. Like, is it - I believe the phrase "Is blood magic inherently evil?" Is it?

 

DG: That is a...there's an amount of judgment call. Even I, as a creator, I could come out and say "Yes, blood magic is inherently evil" but what would that even mean? What is the nature of evil there? Are we talking about morally evil? Morally wrong? Are we talking about evil as far sort of like a corruptive influence as far as darkspawn? There is evil - there is blood magic as is defined by the chantry, which is more involved in the use of blood sacrifice and mind control. But blood magic really goes further than that as well. I mean if you really think of it, the use of phylacteries is a type of blood magic. The Joining is a type of blood magic. So, I think it's a situation where blood magic is something that is often used for evil, but ultimately, it is a tool. Yet, one must address the moral question of it. If you have something like blood magic that is easily used for evil and so commonly used for evil, it presents such a tempting route to evil purposes. Does that mean that it should not be regulated or controlled or probably disallowed entirely? Sort of - I think the topic is more in common with gun control than anything else.

 

LI: So you mentioned blood sacrifices - as far as the difference between using blood as a catalyst versus using lyrium as a catalyst, what is the level between them? For instance, in Redcliffe, when you can either use blood or lyrium in order to enter the Fade, what is the amount that needs to be used? Is blood more...do you not have to use as much as lyrium as far as cost goes?

 

DG: Woo, if you're going for cost breakdown, they both offer power - ultimately. Blood has the potential to offer more power, I'd say. But ultimately if you had enough lyrium at your command, you probably wouldn't need blood magic, per se. There's things you can do with blood magic that you couldn't do just with lyrium, like mind control. Cause blood magic is just not a source of power - it's a type of power. So, that allows you to control other life force - to control minds. Whereas lyrium is just a source of power for all magic. You can use lyrium to power blood magic as well. It's one of those things where blood magic is kind of a separate way of doing magic that allows different things. Allows a source of power. It's not to say blood magic is a source of magical power - it's actually both.

 

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There are differnet kinds of blood magic and maybe each kind has different risks. Merril was in contact with a demon and was drawing power from it when she used blood magic IIRC (its mentioned when she brings down the barrier after you first meet her, she says something like "the demon helped didn't it"?) and maybe that's why her risk of possession was higher and maybe that's what is being refered to in the video posted in this thread - but not all blood magic requires contact with a demon or draws power from one.

 

As I already said, the new lore doesn't make this any clearer. Consider: "Isseya recognized Calin as a blood mage because he used magic without touching the Fade" with "blood magic always involves contact with demons and practicing it increases the risk of possession". The only conclusion I can draw if I accept both as fact of the lore is that there are two kinds of blood magic. You can't be at higher risk of possession if you don't even touch the Fade.

 

I think it would be very plausible if that higher risk of possession applied to mind-control effects only, since you must reach through the Fade to touch another's mind. It may also apply to blood sacrifice since this supposedly touches another's life essence and isn't just a physical effect, so you might need to reach through the Fade for that as well. It makes no sense, however, for anything for which you need not touch the Fade. Does anyone recall if Last Flight says anything about the kind of spells Calin cast when Isseya recognized him as a blood mage?

 

I may also mention that "Dealing with demons increases vulnerability to possession" demands an explanation. I would rather think it reduces the risk since you acquire experience in dealing with demons." Again, Last Flight makes a very convincing presentation of when you may be most vulnerable: not when you do blood magic as such, but when your passions run free or you're in danger of death, those moments where you feel you would do anything to get something done. If you touch the Fade in those moments, which means when you're using any magic at all (ironically, with the possible exception of the kind of blood magic that doesn't require your touching the Fade), then you're most vulnerable.

 

Also, most pertinent to the question of whether there is an element of unfair persecution present in DA2 as well: Does Alain deserve death? If we recommend that the templars spare him, IIRC, we don't mention the fact he's a blood mage. Otherwise, it would be implausible that they let him live.

I agree with this. If there are different types of blood magic, the risks may be entirely different.

[raging_monkey]

This is why BM got removed too much grey and moral ambiguity

[ComedicSociopathy]

As far I understand it Blood Magic doesn't necessarily need a demon to teach use of its spells.

 

As mentioned already Jowan learned it from books in the Circle.

 

That being said, the lore looks to be very clear on the fact that Blood Magic has a far greater chance of attracting demons, who to any sane human being, are objectivity evil monsters that wish only to jack your body and murder everyone in sight.

 

That alone would persuade me into understanding why the Chantry and the Circle has such a stigma against its use. 

 

Speaking of the Chantry, its interesting to note that their stance against Blood Magic seems to have come about less so because of religious ideology, and more because of well thought out pragmatism. The abilities of a blood mage can be highly sinister in the way that it can subtlety influence and control anyone through dreams.

 

Someone being able to control the minds of kings and generals is far more dangerous then a pyromancer. 

[Ieldra]

We can, but to a majority of Thedas, Blood Magic is obviously morally wrong, so I don't see a point in discussing it. In our own world, I doubt it would be any different, as harming one's self is still "morally wrong." Personally, I don't care. 

Eh, what? Harming oneself is morally wrong? According to whom? No one I have ever spoken to about such things believes that.

[Master Warder Z_]

Eh, what? Harming oneself is morally wrong? According to whom? No one I have ever spoken to about such things believes that.

 

Suicide is a sin

[raging_monkey]

Eh, what? Harming oneself is morally wrong? According to whom? No one I have ever spoken to about such things believes that.

suicide is condered a self harm but i see it as a personal and private choice that no one should judge unless they have full understanding of the decision(note that i am not judging or inciting debate on the subject due to its sensitivity)

[Ieldra]

@ili yoncè:

Very interesting. It appears that I'm rather in tune with what David Gaider thinks about this. I actually didn't know he referred to the problem as similar to the gun control question before I made the comparison. What I didn't expect was the claim that blood magic spells can theoretically be powered by lyrium. So blood magic actually *is* two different things, a source of power and a school of magic, which overlap but aren't identical, and the Chantry refers to blood magic as the school of magic which involved mind control and demon summoning and lumps it together with blood magic as a source of power. 

[lil yonce]

@ili yoncè:

Very interesting. It appears that I'm rather in tune with what David Gaider thinks about this. I actually didn't know he referred to the problem as similar to the gun control question before I made the comparison. What I didn't expect was the claim that blood magic spells can theoretically be powered by lyrium. So blood magic actually *is* two different things, a source of power and a school of magic, which overlap but aren't identical, and the Chantry refers to blood magic as the school of magic which involved mind control and demon summoning and lumps it together with blood magic as a source of power. 

Yes, which is a huge problem because say you have a mage that has been, for whatever reason, deemed too weak to resist demons - if they could use blood as a source of power for spells rather than the fade, they'd be safe from possession. Theoretically, of course. It may not actually work that way, but if you aren't touching the fade or using blood magic school spells that require you do, I don't see how you could be at risk unless there's just more about blood magic that we do not know or are not clear on. And the DA2 blood mage spec says this: "but this specialization isn't limited to madmen and monsters. Many see it as the only form of magic that is truly free, because it's tied to the physical, not favors to spirits or demons." If it is the only form of magic that is free and tied to the physical world, it seems you shouldn't be at risk for possession when you use blood as power. Just my take.

[Medhia_Nox]

I'm actually more curious as to the interest in blood magic.

 

It is, to me, a banal form of spellcasting by mages not strong enough to use lyrium alone to prove their worth (that is opinion - though I do believe there are sources that support it). 

 

But to many, it is a source of great fascination.

[ComedicSociopathy]

Yes, which is a huge problem because, say you have a mage that has been, for whatever reason, deemed too weak to resist demons - if they could use blood as a source of power for spells rather than the fade, they'd be safe from possession. Theoretically, of course. It may not actually work that way, but if you aren't touching the fade or using blood magic school spells that require you do, I don't see how you could be at risk unless there's just more about blood magic that we do not know or are not clear on. And the DA2 blood mage spec says this: "but this specialization isn't limited to madmen and monsters. Many see it as the only form of magic that is truly free, because it's tied to the physical, not favors to spirits or demons." If it is the only form of magic that is free and tied to the physical world, it seems you shouldn't be at risk for possession when you use blood as power. Just my take.

 

Wait..

 

So, what what you're saying here is that Blood Magic (or a specific "kind" of blood magic) can completely ignore the Fade, and thus the avoid the risk of demonic possession?

 

And yet, Blood Magic usage has been shown, and fall out stated, in Last Flight and the Dragon Age games proper, to be a bloody aphrodisiac for demons to try and possess you.

 

The only way I can make sense of that is either A) Blood Magic when used specifically to summon demons near you will of course increase a mage's chance of being possessed by one. Or B ) There is in fact two types of Blood magic where one just makes your fire balls bigger and another  that allows you to summon demons, enter people's dreams, tear the Veil and create zombies. The latter being the one that actually brings forth evil demons by its mire use. 

 

Then again the answer might be C) Bioware is retconing the **** of Blood Magic and doesn't know what they want it to be. 

[pengwin21]

Yes, which is a huge problem because say you have a mage that has been, for whatever reason, deemed too weak to resist demons - if they could use blood as a source of power for spells rather than the fade, they'd be safe from possession. Theoretically, of course. It may not actually work that way, but if you aren't touching the fade or using blood magic school spells that require you do, I don't see how you could be at risk unless there's just more about blood magic that we do not know or are not clear on. And the DA2 blood mage spec says this: "but this specialization isn't limited to madmen and monsters. Many see it as the only form of magic that is truly free, because it's tied to the physical, not favors to spirits or demons." If it is the only form of magic that is free and tied to the physical world, it seems you shouldn't be at risk for possession when you use blood as power. Just my take.

 

I'm inclined to say that the spec description is the odd man out here. We have a demon being the only way to learn Blood Magic in DA:O, Merrill making a deal with a demon for blood magic in DA2, and what was seen in Last Flight.

[Br3admax]

Eh, what? Harming oneself is morally wrong? According to whom? No one I have ever spoken to about such things believes that.

Morals are the "rights and wrongs" of a society. Society, at least Western society, as a whole, seems to frown on one mutilating their body. For some reason. 

[lil yonce]

Wait..

 

So, what what you're saying here is that Blood Magic (or a specific "kind" of blood magic) can completely ignore the Fade, and thus the avoid the risk of demonic possession?

 

And yet, Blood Magic usage has been shown, and fall out stated, in Last Flight and the Dragon Age games proper, to be a bloody aphrodisiac for demons to try and possess you.

 

The only way I can make sense of that is either A) Blood Magic when used specifically to summon demons near you will of course increase a mage's chance of being possessed by one. Or B ) There is in fact two types of Blood magic where one just makes your fire balls bigger and another  that allows you to summon demons, enter people's dreams, tear the Veil and create zombies. The latter being the one that actually brings forth evil demons by its mire use. 

 

Then again the answer might be C) Bioware is retconing the **** of Blood Magic and doesn't know what they want it to be. 

There is more than one type of blood magic.There is blood magic as a power source - so one that you can use to cast fireballs or make them bigger. And there is blood magic as a school of magic itself. Blood magic school spells can be powered by lyrium too, at least some of them.

[Br3admax]

Blood magic school spells can be powered by lyrium too, at least some of them.

The quote you provided says otherwise. Obviously every School of Blood spell can't be cast with lyrium alone. 

[lil yonce]

The quote you provided says otherwise. Obviously every School of Blood spell can't be cast with lyrium alone. 

I think its pretty clear now that its refering to one form of blood magic and not the other.

[Ieldra]

So, what what you're saying here is that Blood Magic (or a specific "kind" of blood magic) can completely ignore the Fade, and thus the avoid the risk of demonic possession?

 

And yet, Blood Magic usage has been shown, and fall out stated, in Last Flight and the Dragon Age games proper, to be a bloody aphrodisiac for demons to try and possess you.

 

The only way I can make sense of that is either A) Blood Magic when used specifically to summon demons near you will of course increase a mage's chance of being possessed by one. Or B ) There is in fact two types of Blood magic where one just makes your fire balls bigger and another  that allows you to summon demons, enter people's dreams, tear the Veil and create zombies. The latter being the one that actually brings forth evil demons by its mire use. 

 

Then again the answer might be C) Bioware is retconing the **** of Blood Magic and doesn't know what they want it to be. 

Actually, *we* are not saying that a certain kind of blood magic can ignore the Fade, Last Flight does when Isseya recognizes Calin as a blood mage because he didn't touch the Fade while casting spells.

 

And yes, the main conclusion I draw from this is that there are two kinds of blood magic: blood magic as a power source for normal spells works differently from things like mind control, which of course requires that you touch the Fade and are at risk from demons. That, however, is an attribute of this specific spell and possibly a specific group of spells or a specific way to use blood magic as a power source, namely by sacrificing others. I'll get to that when I post the Last Flight section tomorrow.

[SmilesJA]

Well I don't think blood magic is inherently evil as the chantry keeps putting in our heads. However it comes at a serious risk for demons but I feel it can be used for good.

[Master Warder Z_]

Well I don't think blood magic is inherently evil as the chantry keeps putting in our heads. However it comes at a serious risk for demons but I feel it can be used for good.

 

It really, really can't.

 

Well beyond two applications, three if you count "non" blood magic as blood magic anyway.

[Zakhar]

Morals are the "rights and wrongs" of a society. Society, at least Western society, as a whole, seems to frown on one mutilating their body. For some reason.

It's viewed that way because it's just not healthy. Not physically or mentally.

[TheJediSaint]

It really, really can't.

 

Well beyond two applications, three if you count "non" blood magic as blood magic anyway.

It can be used for good purposes.  It's just the price you end up paying will more than negate whatever good you do.

[Master Warder Z_]

It can be used for good purposes.  It's just the price you end up paying will more than negate whatever good you do.

 

Hence why it be restricted to killing darkspawn, leashing mages and killing Qunari.

 

Oh and finding mages to kill.

[TheJediSaint]

Hence why it be restricted to killing darkspawn, leashing mages and killing Qunari.

 

Oh and finding mages to kill.

Eh, even the Joining carries a hefty price.  I wouldn't be surprised if using phylacteries turns out to have unforeseen consequences.

 

Also, using Blood Magic to fight the Blight cost the Grey Warden's their Griffons.  Who knows what the cost to Thedas would be if it's used against the Qunari.

[Ieldra]

It's viewed that way because it's just not healthy. Not physically or mentally.

"harming" does not necessarily involve "mutilating". Also, I bet few people would even comment on it if there was a rational purpose in harming yourself. It's just that in our world, it's hard to imagine one. As for the purpose of killing yourself, that's controversial, not universally condemned. I'd take a bet that a majority of people in my country would not morally condemn it, even as they'd try to discourage anyone from doing it.

[Master Warder Z_]

Who knows what the cost to Thedas would be if it's used against the Qunari.

 

It will cost the world the removal of the Qunari.

 

To me combating the blight, warding mages and the Qunari are the only three justifiable usages of it.

[Icy Magebane]

It will cost the world the removal of the Qunari.

 

To me combating the blight, warding mages and the Qunari are the only three justifiable usages of it.

The use of blood magic against the Qunari is only acceptable if the Tevinters use it, since they are already blood mages.  Allowing mages in the White Chantry portion of Thedas to learn blood magic isn't worth it... how do you control them once they have access to a power the Templars have trouble warding against?  How do you regulate which mages learn what spells?  Only in the most dire circumstance should this be considered.  I'm talking about the Qunari taking half the continent, nothing less.  Otherwise the risk is just too great... IMO only the Grey Wardens should be allowed to practice blood magic, and in their case only because there is nobody else capable of ending the Blights.  They can have a few special privileges in exchange for the service they provide in combating the darkspawn... although personally I would prefer if they were also banned from practicing blood magic, considering Avernus and certain incidents that have recently come to light.  Clearly they cannot be trusted.

 

Obviously in a world without the Circle, none of that matters, since apostates can study and practice whatever they want... I am only referring to a world in which the Circle is rebuilt.  The less exceptions are granted, the less questions are asked and the more smoothly the system works.