245 réponses à ce sujet

[Master Warder Z_]

The use of blood magic against the Qunari is only acceptable if the Tevinters use it, since they are already blood mages.  Allowing mages in the White Chantry portion of Thedas to learn blood magic isn't worth it... how do you control them once they have access to a power the Templars have trouble warding against?  How do you regulate which mages learn what spells?

 

I'd think there should be a specially established wartime division of mages that are the only legal users of it, the Templars warding them will be of the most vigilant stock the order can produce, beyond that special wartime controls will be established before the division is deployed and after it returns, i am talking PERSONAL sit down interviews to establish certainty they have resisting corruption, they are retaining sanity, that they are remembering why they were forced to taken upon this horror.

 

After the war, well i'd suggest a special temporary circle be established on that templar fortress in the waking sea.

 

They will never see mainland Thedas again, they will never be permitted to leave, they will lauded for their role, they will be honored and they will receive stature befitting what they did, but they will never again be within a normal circle. They will live in conditions that make the normal circle look like a beggar's hovel, they will want for nothing, but they will be surrounded by an army of templars in the middle of an ocean with no method of escape.

 

Hence why it would be a strictly volunteer division: it would be open and frank about the entire usage from the beginning, there would be no lies, no deceit they would be taking on this power to become the weapons needed to cast the Qunari into oblivion where they belong.

[pengwin21]

I'd think there should be a specially established wartime division of mages that are the only legal users of it, the Templars warding them will be of the most vigilant stock the order can produce, beyond that special wartime controls will be established before the division is deployed and after it returns, i am talking PERSONAL sit down interviews to establish certainty they have resisting corruption, they are retaining sanity, that they are remembering why they were forced to taken upon this horror.

 

After the war, well i'd suggest a special temporary circle be established on that templar fortress in the waking sea.

 

They will never see mainland Thedas again, they will never be permitted to leave, they will lauded for their role, they will be honored and they will receive stature befitting what they did, but they will never again be within a normal circle. They will live in conditions that make the normal circle look like a beggar's hovel, they will want for nothing, but they will be surrounded by an army of templars in the middle of an ocean with no method of escape.

 

Hence why it would be a strictly volunteer division: it would be open and frank about the entire usage from the beginning, there would be no lies, no deceit they would be taking on this power to become the weapons needed to cast the Qunari into oblivion where they belong.

 

It sounds like a decent solution, although if there are very few or no volunteers there may be problems defeating the Qunari. A lifetime of relative isolation would not appeal to many.

[The Baconer]

I'd think there should be a specially established wartime division of mages that are the only legal users of it, the Templars warding them will be of the most vigilant stock the order can produce, beyond that special wartime controls will be established before the division is deployed and after it returns, i am talking PERSONAL sit down interviews to establish certainty they have resisting corruption, they are retaining sanity, that they are remembering why they were forced to taken upon this horror.

 

After the war, well i'd suggest a special temporary circle be established on that templar fortress in the waking sea.

 

They will never see mainland Thedas again, they will never be permitted to leave, they will lauded for their role, they will be honored and they will receive stature befitting what they did, but they will never again be within a normal circle. They will live in conditions that make the normal circle look like a beggar's hovel, they will want for nothing, but they will be surrounded by an army of templars in the middle of an ocean with no method of escape.

 

Hence why it would be a strictly volunteer division: it would be open and frank about the entire usage from the beginning, there would be no lies, no deceit they would be taking on this power to become the weapons needed to cast the Qunari into oblivion where they belong.

 

heh, blood mage special forces.

[Icy Magebane]

I'd think there should be a specially established wartime division of mages that are the only legal users of it, the Templars warding them will be of the most vigilant stock the order can produce, beyond that special wartime controls will be established before the division is deployed and after it returns, i am talking PERSONAL sit down interviews to establish certainty they have resisting corruption, they are retaining sanity, that they are remembering why they were forced to taken upon this horror.

 

After the war, well i'd suggest a special temporary circle be established on that templar fortress in the waking sea.

 

They will never see mainland Thedas again, they will never be permitted to leave, they will lauded for their role, they will be honored and they will receive stature befitting what they did, but they will never again be within a normal circle. They will live in conditions that make the normal circle look like a beggar's hovel, they will want for nothing, but they will be surrounded by an army of templars in the middle of an ocean with no method of escape.

 

Hence why it would be a strictly volunteer division: it would be open and frank about the entire usage from the beginning, there would be no lies, no deceit they would be taking on this power to become the weapons needed to cast the Qunari into oblivion where they belong.

I could see that working actually... so long as these mages are carefully segregated from the general population, are supervised at all times, and have little to no contact with mages outside this order, there would be a very low chance that their knowledge could be spread.  My only problem with this is the issue of trust... I mean, it would be difficult to establish a person's true motives for wishing to join such a group.  I suppose that if admission into this group is by invitation only, the Templars have a reasonable chance of selecting mages of good character in the majority of cases...  I doubt that 100% of the mages who are invited and agree to join would be on the level, but a few rebels here and there shouldn't be that hard to deal with.  As long as the Templars are careful, they could probably weed out the troublemakers before they learn anything too dangerous... Hm.  Yeah, maybe this could work... as a last resort perhaps.  The people of Thedas should at least attempt to fight the Qunari without blood magic to see if they can handle it before attempting something this risky.  Maybe if Tevinter (or whatever nation gets attacked first) falls, this could be plan B.

[Willowhugger]

I'm going to have a big post on this subject in just a bit.

 

Gathering stuff for it.

Great job making this essay, though!

 

You should blog it.

[The Baconer]

As cool as it sounds, I honestly don't see the point in doing it without involving the Magisters in some extent. They are the best in the business when it comes to magic, especially blood magic.

[Icy Magebane]

As cool as it sounds, I honestly don't see the point in doing it without involving the Magisters in some extent. They are the best in the business when it comes to magic, especially blood magic.

The Magisters can't be trusted to work with mages and Templars from White Thedas... that would be a recipe for disaster.  I think it would be best to lend conventional troops to Tevinter rather than allowing mages to be exposed to the forbidden magic that permeates their culture.

 

If blood magic instructors are needed, perhaps we could have the Grey Wardens help with that?  Or would they insist on being neutral even in the face of a Qunari invasion?

[The Baconer]

The Magisters can't be trusted to work with mages and Templars from White Thedas... that would be a recipe for disaster.  I think it would be best to lend conventional troops to Tevinter rather than allowing mages to be exposed to the forbidden magic that permeates their culture.

 

If blood magic instructors are needed, perhaps we could have the Grey Wardens help with that?  Or would they insist on being neutral even in the face of a Qunari invasion?

 

Yes, I was thinking the same thing, leave the research and consequences to the (applicable) Magisters. Most Circle mages don't have any experience with blood magic, and there's going to be time playing catch-up to a group of individuals who already exist with the knowledge and experience.

[raging_monkey]

I'd think there should be a specially established wartime division of mages that are the only legal users of it, the Templars warding them will be of the most vigilant stock the order can produce, beyond that special wartime controls will be established before the division is deployed and after it returns, i am talking PERSONAL sit down interviews to establish certainty they have resisting corruption, they are retaining sanity, that they are remembering why they were forced to taken upon this horror. After the war, well i'd suggest a special temporary circle be established on that templar fortress in the waking sea. They will never see mainland Thedas again, they will never be permitted to leave, they will lauded for their role, they will be honored and they will receive stature befitting what they did, but they will never again be within a normal circle. They will live in conditions that make the normal circle look like a beggar's hovel, they will want for nothing, but they will be surrounded by an army of templars in the middle of an ocean with no method of escape. Hence why it would be a strictly volunteer division: it would be open and frank about the entire usage from the beginning, there would be no lies, no deceit they would be taking on this power to become the weapons needed to cast the Qunari into oblivion where they belong.

i support this i can use my talents to help others and have research mayerials all, even more luxory in return for increased supervision. I am down for this

[Icy Magebane]

Yes, I was thinking the same thing, leave the research and consequences to the (applicable) Magisters. Most Circle mages don't have any experience with blood magic, and there's going to be time playing catch-up to a group of individuals who already exist with the knowledge and experience.

Indeed.  As much as I dislike Tevinter, refusing to work with them against the Qunari or letting their nation fall to an invasion would be a big mistake.  I get the feeling that they would be expecting White Thedas to turn on them immediately afterward, though, so I'm not sure how well such an alliance would work.  We can't very well let them claim Seheron or any land on Par Vollen, no matter how helpful they were in the war...  IMO at least.

[Master Warder Z_]

Indeed.  As much as I dislike Tevinter, refusing to work with them against the Qunari or letting their nation fall to an invasion would be a big mistake.  I get the feeling that they would be expecting White Thedas to turn on them immediately afterward, though, so I'm not sure how well such an alliance would work.  We can't very well let them claim Seheron or any land on Par Vollen, no matter how helpful they were in the war...  IMO at least.

 

The alliance worked fairly well in the last war, but that was a different era.

 

They can reclaim their territory in my book, its the least they are owed.

 

Tevinter needs to continue to exist, Thedas needs a possible threat, something to keep the continent focused on defense, something to prepare it for what comes after.

[Willowhugger]

The issue of Blood Magic is one of the more uncertain areas of Dragon Age and something I've always enjoyed because it's the perfect sort of tool for gamers who enjoy a little dash to to their characters, particularly mages. Dragon Age is, fundamentally, about the greys in conflicts of good and evil as the first and primary story of the franchise is the GREY Wardens versus the Darkspawn. Also, the fact the Warden can be completely evil but still be a hero as long as he stops the Darkspawn.

 

One of the appeals I've found to Blood Magic is that it is completely reviled in setting. To be a mage is to be considered suspicious and a ticking time-bomb but to be a Blood Mage is the equivalent to admitting you're the professional Baby-Eater at the Imperial Court. Blood Mages occupy a place akin to the Sith in the Dragon Age setting and it's not because of their idealogy. It's because they have become intimately associated with being an "evil" mage.

 

The thing is, the games go out of their way to make it clear Blood Magic is not intristically tied to evil. You don't have to sell your soul to the demon in the Fade to learn Blood Magic. You can just SCARE it into teaching you Blood Magic. Jowan learned it from a book. You can learn it from a book in Awakenings. There's more, too. The Grey Wardens and Templars both use Blood Magic in-game with the hypocrisy of it explictly noted. Gamers are left with a sense that Blood Magic is inherently dangerous but perhaps unfairly reviled.

 

Except, of course, that those who walk away with this impression also are ignoring other factors. Broken Circle is a complete cluster**** of epic proportions. Blood Magic was used to help "liberate" the Circle from the Templars but it has turned into an epic disaster as the Blood Mages have found, instead of liberation, death at the hands of demons. You can even spare one of the Blood Mages who is not repentant about her rebellion but simply how it turned out. There's also the ambiguity of Connor. Connor didn't get possessed because he's a mage. He explicitly used Jowan's magic to summon a demon in order to make a pact with it. Jowan is a Blood Mage.

 

It's easy to assume Blood Magic = Demonology.

 

But it's not.

 

The thing is, I do think Blood Magic's reputation isn't UNFAIR either. Blood Magic doesn't make you evil but it's the kind of thing which appeals to evil-doers. People seek out Blood Magic despite its reputation because they are willing to do anything in order to achieve their aims. The kind of people we encounter who are Blood Mages aren't those who are studying it because they believe it is an unfairly maligned discipline (Avernus is the closest we encounter to someone like that and he's utterly ruthless in the pursuit of science) but because they believe it's reputation implies power is to be had with it.

Power which the sociopathic will gravitate to because most people who aren't sociopaths wouldn't want to learn it.

 

Blood Magic may not NECESSARILY come from demons but it's also the case that demons certainly teach it. We get it indirectly confirmed in First Flight and directly confirmed by the author that Blood Magic taught by demons is deliberately incomplete. They're not trying to directly trap the souls of human beings but any human who thinks they know everything about Blood Magic who learns it from a demon is a moron. It's much-much more complicated than it appears.

 

I'm inclined to think that Tevinter is an example also of what "non-evil" Blood Magic's pitfalls are too as the Tevinter aren't overrun with demons but are implied to be overrun with Blood Magic. I think this is due to the fact Blood Magic still can be abused as the slave culture and culture of Darwinist meritocracy brings out the worst elements in mages anyway.

[Icy Magebane]

The alliance worked fairly well in the last war, but that was a different era.

 

They can reclaim their territory in my book, its the least they are owed.

 

Tevinter needs to continue to exist, Thedas needs a possible threat, something to keep the continent focused on defense, something to prepare it for what comes after.

If Tevinter is allowed to spread to the north, they could become very powerful in a relatively short time.  I don't think it's wise to allow Tevinter to exist once the Qunari are crippled... all that will lead to is another Imperium.  The only reason they haven't reconquered the south in all this time is because the Qunari have been keeping them busy for centuries.  Where is the value in allowing a nation ruled by blood mages to consolidate power in the former Qunari lands?  What is this threat from afar that you think is coming?

 

This all relates to the topic in that I feel the spread of blood magic must be prevented at all costs.  Throughout the history of Thedas, we've seen countless atrocities and "accidents" due to blood magic and few, if any, positive effects on society.  The Chantry has a responsibility to limit the spread of blood magic, and that means preventing Tevinter from reclaiming any of their old lands or returning to power.  When they no longer have to deal with the Qunari, they will inevitably return to their former glory if left unopposed.

[Ieldra]

I added the remaining parts. The OP is now functionally complete, though changes may still be made based on lore I forgot or didn't know about, or official statements about the subject.

[The Ascendant]

Very interesting. Thank you for starting this post. I wonder how blood magic will affect the Warden and Hawke if they themselves become blood mages, mine did.

[lil yonce]

@Ieldra; The quote about blood magic being the only free form of magic comes from the DA2 blood mage specialization description. This may not link correctly from the wiki - I've linked it before in another thread but it hasn't worked, but if you do a google search for it, it will turn up. You should also be able to see it in your game if you load it up. http://dragonage.wik...(Dragon_Age_II)

 

And that's right, mages are said to be at the mercy of their sleeping minds. There is this codex entry about it that I remember now: http://dragonage.wik...ry:_Tranquility. The mage made tranquil was already having nightmares before she arrived at the circle, however, like Feynriel, so maybe this is more specific than a technically true but very general "all mages are at the mercy of their sleeping minds".

[Br3admax]

I think its pretty clear now that its refering to one form of blood magic and not the other.

Yes, but those spells that can be powered by lyrium aren't a part of the School of Blood. They're just commonly used spells by blood mages. 

[lil yonce]

Yes, but those spells that can be powered by lyrium aren't a part of the School of Blood. They're just commonly used spells by blood mages. 

They would be part of the blood magic school. Using lyrium to power blood magic means a spell like hemorrhage is specific to the school of blood magic. Using blood to power a fire spell while under the umbrella of blood magic isn't part of the blood magic school. If you used lyrium to power a healing spell you wouldn't say the healing spell isn't part of the creation school or that its just a spell commonly used by creation mages.

[Ieldra]

@Ieldra; The quote about blood magic being the only free form of magic comes from the DA2 blood mage specilization description. This may not link correctly from the wiki - I've linked it before in another thread but it hasn't worked, but if you do a google search for it, it will turn up. You should also be able to see it in your game if you load it up. http://dragonage.wik...(Dragon_Age_II)

 

And that's right, mages are said to be at the mercy of their sleeping minds. There is this codex entry about it that I remember now: http://dragonage.wik...ry:_Tranquility. The mage made tranquil was already having nightmares before she arrived at the circle, however, like Feynriel, so maybe this is more specific than a technically true but very general "all mages are at the mercy of their sleeping minds".

Thank you! I have added the relevant information to the OP.

[Br3admax]

They would be part of the blood magic school. 

Nah. 

 

 

Using lyrium to power blood magic means a spell like hemorrhage is specific to the school of blood magic. 

 Also not true. If it can be cast without demonic influence, it isn't a part of the School of Blood. 

Using blood to power a fire spell while under the umbrella of blood magic isn't part of the blood magic school. If you used lyrium to power a healing spell you wouldn't say the healing spell isn't part of the creation school or that its just a spell commonly used by creation mages.

That's because lyrium was already the power source for those spells before. Of course I'm a proponent of the lyrium being a part of the mage's body already, so I can see why you disagree. 

[lil yonce]

 

Nah. 

 Also not true. If it can be cast without demonic influence, it isn't a part of the School of Blood. 

That's because lyrium was already the power source for those spells before. Of course I'm a proponent of the lyrium being a part of the mage's body already, so I can see why you disagree. 

 

If you're casting with blood or affecting the blood of others, or their life force in some way, its blood magic. I don't see how it couldn't be. This 'demonic possession or its not blood magic' bit, where did you get that from?

[Ieldra]

As for which spells are part of the blood magic school:

 

That's not completely clear. However, that they can or can't be cast with blood or lyrium has no impact whatsoever on where they land. Spell schools are sets of thematically connected spells. If it deals with demonology or mind control, it is part of the blood magic school regardless of whether it can also be cast with lyrium. Things only become confusing when we ask about phylacteries or the Joining, which are specific spells that need blood in order to work, but aren't demonology or mind control. That's why I added "manipulation of life essence" to the list in the OP. There appear to be no other schools fit to contain them.

[EmperorSahlertz]

That you can buy a book in DA:A that teaches you Blood Magic means NOTHING lorewise. You can also buy books that teaches you Arcane Warrior and Templar specializations. Both of these were either closely guarded secrets, or lost arts certainly not contained in some random tome. These tomes were included in the game for the player's CONVENIENCE.

[raging_monkey]

There are still books that teach BM

[EmperorSahlertz]

There are still books that teach BM

Maybe. The one MAJOR source of Blood Magic knowledge, that for whatever reason was left out of the op, are the Scrolls of Banastor. These scrolls teach blood magic. And they specifically say that a pact with a demon is required.

 

So maybe that is what Jowan's books taught him. "First make pact with demon, then read on and learn".

 

Just because you can read the basics, does not mean demons aren't required.