245 réponses à ce sujet

[Solrest]

Whoa, definitely had to grab my coffee before delving in to this treasure trove of information. Very nice work on compiling it all and how you presented your information is top notch. I have a lot to potential add to this, but I have to head to work so I just wanted to drop in a short message at the moment.

 

What I will say concerning the question of blood magic (both as a power source and as a school of magic) making the user more prone to demonic possession is perhaps you should look at it in a far more practical way. Using blood magic as a power source literally weakens yourself by draining your own life source, the weaker you get the less you can resist and the more tempting it becomes.

 

My example of this goes back to Last Flight. Particularly when she's using blood magic to keep the altered griffons under control all the way to Kirkwall. The voices she hears grow more and more tantalizing if you will, offering to free her from her burden more and more aggressively. Yes, she is also using a blood magic technique itself (mind control) so that does open her up to it already, but as she mentions she feels the taint within herself spreading as she uses it so I'm willing to wager she's using her blood as a power source and not her inner source of mana. Even without using a spell within the blood mage school, enhancing your normal spells with your own blood will certainly increase the chance of possession as you're weakening your body as a result. This can be avoided by using blood pact, but using someone else's blood as a source most certainly should fall in as using a blood mage school spell, as drawing the power from them should also require a spell all on it own.

[raging_monkey]

Maybe. The one MAJOR source of Blood Magic knowledge, that for whatever reason was left out of the op, are the Scrolls of Banastor. These scrolls teach blood magic. And they specifically say that a pact with a demon is required. So maybe that is what Jowan's books taught him. "First make pact with demon, then read on and learn". Just because you can read the basics, does not mean demons aren't required.

possibly but the idea of having working knowledge on the subject also COULD be also said. Hawke could be a BM and made no pact couldve just opened a vein and did whatever... just thought

[Ieldra]

What I will say concerning the question of blood magic (both as a power source and as a school of magic) making the user more prone to demonic possession is perhaps you should look at it in a far more practical way. Using blood magic as a power source literally weakens yourself by draining your own life source, the weaker you get the less you can resist as the more tempting it becomes.

 

My example of this goes back to Last Flight. Particularly when she's using blood magic to keep the altered griffons under control all the way to Kirkwall. The voices she hears grow more and more tantalizing if you will, offering to free her from her burden more and more aggressively. Yes, she is also using a blood magic technique itself (mind control) so that does open her up to it already, but as she mentions she feels the taint within herself spreading as she uses it I'm willing to wager she's using her blood as a power source and not her inner source of mana. Even without using a spell within the blood mage school, enhancing your normal spells with your own blood will certainly increase the chance of possession as you're weakening your body as a result. This can be avoid by using blood pact, but uses someone else's blood as a source most certainly should fall in as using a blood mage school spell, as drawing the power from them should also require a spell all on it own.

A very interesting hypothesis and very plausible. I should mention that the effect would still not be permanent as suggested in Merrill's companion quest if you chose specific options in the conversation after completing it, since life essence regenerates, and it would still only apply if you make contact with demons in the first place, which you don't if you just use your own life essence to power a spell from a non-BM school.

[EmperorSahlertz]

possibly but the idea of having working knowledge on the subject also COULD be also said. Hawke could be a BM and made no pact couldve just opened a vein and did whatever... just thought

Hawke didn't take Lyrium either if he was a Templar. So don't put too much into that.

[raging_monkey]

Hawke didn't take Lyrium either if he was a Templar. So don't put too much into that.

fair point

[Br3admax]

If you're casting with blood or affecting the blood of others, or their life force in some way, its blood magic. I don't see how it couldn't be. This 'demonic possession or its not blood magic' bit, where did you get that from?

Being Blood Magic doesn't mean it's a part of the School of Blood. Using your blood to power any spell is "Blood Magic." The fact that it can be powered by something else still means it's not exclusive to that school, and thus isn't a part of it.

[Br3admax]

Hawke didn't take Lyrium either if he was a Templar. So don't put too much into that.

Anders says that demons can use injuries to lure mages into learning blood magic.

[Ieldra]

Maybe. The one MAJOR source of Blood Magic knowledge, that for whatever reason was left out of the op, are the Scrolls of Banastor. These scrolls teach blood magic. And they specifically say that a pact with a demon is required.

 

So maybe that is what Jowan's books taught him. "First make pact with demon, then read on and learn".

 

Just because you can read the basics, does not mean demons aren't required.

These scrolls are at about the same level of sanity as Tarohne's. However, I admittedly did not re-read them and didn't recall that statement. A pact is not required btw, you can also force the demon into subservience. You don't have to give it anything. It changes nothing, though. Knowledge is knowledge. The knowledge of the blood magic spells like mind-control and tearing open the veil - for that's what the scrolls are about - may be demonic in origin - which has already been mentioned as likely true - yet it can also be written down in books. If there is danger in hidden side effects as Last Flight claims, a different source doesn't change that. 

[EmperorSahlertz]

Anders says that demons can use injuries to lure mages into learning blood magic.

I don't think that line should be taken 100% seriously. It is just Anders trying to cope with Merrill's unapologetic views of Blood Magic.

[KainD]

What I will say concerning the question of blood magic (both as a power source and as a school of magic) making the user more prone to demonic possession is perhaps you should look at it in a far more practical way. Using blood magic as a power source literally weakens yourself by draining your own life source, the weaker you get the less you can resist and the more tempting it becomes.

 

Using other peoples blood annihilates this risk. 

[Br3admax]

I don't think that line should be taken 100% seriously. It is just Anders trying to cope with Merrill's unapologetic views of Blood Magic.

Don't see why he would say something that doesn't occasionally happen.

[Hellion Rex]

Don't see why he would say something that doesn't occasionally happen.

At the very least, I do agree that it's plausible that some mages might first realize the power in blood after they accidentally injure themselves, maybe not full out having a demon proposition you then and there though.

[lil yonce]

Being Blood Magic doesn't mean it's a part of the School of Blood. Using your blood to power any spell is "Blood Magic." The fact that it can be powered by something else still means it's not exclusive to that school, and thus isn't a part of it.

So you're saying is a spell like hemorrhage, that corrupts the blood of others, isn't blood magic because it theoretically could be powered by lyrium? That's not right. It doesn't fit in with what David Gaider said, "Cause blood magic is just not a source of power - it's a type of power. So, that allows you to control other life force - to control minds. Whereas lyrium is just a source of power for all magic. You can use lyrium to power blood magic as well. It's one of those things where blood magic is kind of a separate way of doing magic that allows different things. Allows a source of power. It's not to say blood magic is a source of magical power - it's actually both." Blood magic is also a type of magic that you do, and a spell like hemorrhage would fit in the blood magic school regardless of what its powered by.

[Hellion Rex]

So you're saying is a spell like hemorrhage, that corrupts the blood of others, isn't blood magic because it theoretically could be powered by lyrium? That's not right. It doesn't fit in with what David Gaider said, "Cause blood magic is just not a source of power - it's a type of power."

Hold up. The rending of blood has been specifically said to be only possible through blood magic, not lyrium.

[CoffeeElemental]

It is interesting, that demons, spirits of the Fade, can teach mages how to use blood magic while they themselves have no blood. Also animal blood seems to be useless, with only blood of sentients (and dragons - apparently it has magical properties but for obvious reasons is too exotic of a source to be used widely. Irregardless, Joining ritual uses archdemon blood).

 

Based on Asunder we can assume that demon magic=blood magic and demons obviously can do it without blood. Cole subconsciously uses it to influence minds of others and this ability is countered by Litany of Andrala.

 

Therefore I think blood magic is essentially fade spirit magic and mages can also be thought to access it however they need to use their blood to do it. Why exactly is that remains a mystery.

[raging_monkey]

It is interesting, that demons, spirits of the Fade, can teach mages how to use blood magic while they themselves have no blood. Also animal blood seems to be useless, with only blood of sentients (and dragons - apparently it has magical properties but for obvious reasons is too exotic of a source to be used widely. Irregardless, Joining ritual uses archdemon blood). Based on Asunder we can assume that demon magic=blood magic and demons obviously can do it without blood. Cole subconsciously uses it to influence minds of others and this ability is countered by Litany of Andrala. Therefore I think blood magic is essentially fade spirit magic and mages can also be thought to access it however they need to use their blood to do it. Why exactly is that remains a mystery.

perhaps because spirits are pure entropy and mortal are corpeoal are require a different kind of energy to use it

[lil yonce]

Hold up. The rending of blood has been specifically said to be only possible through blood magic, not lyrium.

Do you have a citation? Because this is the only thing I know about lyrium powered blood magic is this statement and it doesn't have restrictions, "You can use lyrium to power blood magic as well."

 

EDIT: Actually, I know its said in the blood magic codex entry that some blood magic spells can only use blood, but does it say which ones? It says mind control and going to the fade conscious, but it doesn't say anything about a spell like hemorrhage.

[Icy Magebane]

Do you have a citation? Because this is the only thing I know about lyrium powered blood magic is this statement and it doesn't have restrictions, "You can use lyrium to power blood magic as well."

 

EDIT: Actually, I know its said in the blood magic codex entry that some blood magic spells can only use blood, but does it say which ones? It says mind control and going to the fade conscious, but it doesn't say anything about a spell like hemorrhage.

How about the fact that Blood Magic must be active to cast Blood Wound and Hemorrhage in the games?  And every other Blood Magic spell from the games, actually...

[lil yonce]

How about the fact that blood magic must be active to cast Blood Wound and Hemorrhage in the games?

The games don't even tell you blood magic can be done with lyrium.

[Hellion Rex]

The games don't even tell you blood magic can be done with lyrium.

Probably because most blood magic spells would require a ton of lyrium to get working, a lot more than our protagonist could have on hand. I still believe that blood rending/boiling, mind control, and physical Fade walking are blood magic exclusive.

[Icy Magebane]

The games don't even tell you blood magic can be done with lyrium.

Whoops... I thought that we were taking the games at face value because people have been arguing that the blood mage spec description in DA2 trumps all other lore and even dev comments, and that blood magic can be learned from books that random barkeepers have in stock for.... reasons.  I figured it would be okay to accept the game mechanics as a citation as well, but I guess that's going too far...

[lil yonce]

Whoops... I thought that we were taking the games at face value because people have been arguing that the blood mage spec description in DA2 trumps all other lore and even dev comments, and that blood magic can be learned from books that random barkeepers have in stock for.... reasons.  I figured it would be okay to accept the game mechanics as a citation as well, but I guess that's going too far...

The game tells you blood magic can be learned from books. Jowan did, for example. And the whole point of this thread is to take all lore into account and form a picture of blood magic from there. If the game doesn't tell you that blood magic can be done with lyrium, and all blood magic spells in the game are done without it, done as if no blood magic spell could work without blood, you're missing some important information. The game also doesn't let you cast a fireball with blood magic. So I should assume it can't be done? Anyways, welcome to my block list.

[Br3admax]

So you're saying is a spell like hemorrhage, that corrupts the blood of others, isn't blood magic because it theoretically could be powered by lyrium? That's not right. It doesn't fit in with what David Gaider said, "Cause blood magic is just not a source of power - it's a type of power. So, that allows you to control other life force - to control minds. Whereas lyrium is just a source of power for all magic. You can use lyrium to power blood magic as well. It's one of those things where blood magic is kind of a separate way of doing magic that allows different things. Allows a source of power. It's not to say blood magic is a source of magical power - it's actually both." Blood magic is also a type of magic that you do, and a spell like hemorrhage would fit in the blood magic school regardless of what its powered by.

If it's not exclusive to the School, it's not a  part of the school. The School of Blood is not the same as Blood Magic, which I think is Gaider's point. The Joining is Blood Magic. Is it a part of the School of Blood? Doubtful. 

[Icy Magebane]

The game tells you blood magic can be learned from books. Jowan did, for example. And the whole point of this thread is to take all lore into account and form a picture of blood magic from there. If the game doesn't tell you that blood magic can be done with lyrium, and all blood magic spells in the game are done without it, done as if no blood magic spell could work without blood, you're missing some important information. Anyways, welcome to my block list.

lol... I'm heartbroken, truly.

[raging_monkey]

Im confused to where the line is now... so much easier to comprehend when demons were just involved