When I talk about blood magic spells that could be powered by lyrium, I am talking about specifically any normal, run of the mill spell that you are simply amplifying by use of blood in lieu of lyrium.
Those are not reasonably classed as blood magic spells. They're regular spells powered by blood.
We currently have no complete information about which spells can only be powered by blood. Likely those in the DA2 blood magic tree count, but yet again, gameplay is not lore.
Mana is magical power. Lyrium collects this magical power. Mana is just energy from the Fade. It isn't a substance, whereas lyrium is. Mana still is what powers the spells when using Lyrium.
That is not correct. Mana is what mages use to tap into the Fade, and channel magical power. Mana is not magic, it is the capability to channel magic.
No spells, not even the regular ones, can be powered by Lyrium. Spells can be EMPOWERED by Lyrium. That is a very important distinciton to make between the two. So yes, Blood Magic can also be EMPOWERED by Lyrium, but you cannot circumvent the blood requirement to Blood Magic spells.
This appears plausible but contradicts the quote by David Gaider on page 2.
That is not correct. Mana is what mages use to tap into the Fade, and channel magical power. Mana is not magic, it is the capability to channel magic.
True.
"Mana is, then, a measurement of one's ability to draw power from the Fade, and it is this power that is expended in magic." - DAO Codex
However, lyrium can be used to restore that potential so there is a connection to lyrium regardless. It may also plausibly regenerate through contact with Fade, though we don't know if it does.
No spells, not even the regular ones, can be powered by Lyrium. Spells can be EMPOWERED by Lyrium. That is a very important distinciton to make between the two. So yes, Blood Magic can also be EMPOWERED by Lyrium, but you cannot circumvent the blood requirement to Blood Magic spells.
I'm just using what Gaider said, "You can use lyrium to power blood magic as well." I'm not going to make a big deal out of powered vs. empowered. I'm just saying that you can cast a blood magic spell with lyrium as the power source and not blood. Not all blood magic spells, like mind control, but at least some of them you can.
This appears plausible but contradicts the quote by David Gaider on page 2.
How so? I assume this is the quote you are referring to:
DG: Woo, if you're going for cost breakdown, they both offer power - ultimately. Blood has the potential to offer more power, I'd say. But ultimately if you had enough lyrium at your command, you probably wouldn't need blood magic, per se. There's things you can do with blood magic that you couldn't do just with lyrium, like mind control. Cause blood magic is just not a source of power - it's a type of power. So, that allows you to control other life force - to control minds. Whereas lyrium is just a source of power for all magic. You can use lyrium to power blood magic as well. It's one of those things where blood magic is kind of a separate way of doing magic that allows different things. Allows a source of power. It's not to say blood magic is a source of magical power - it's actually both.
I think Gaider honestly meant "empower" as in to boost blood magic.
I'm just using what Gaider said, "You can use lyrium to power blood magic as well." I'm not going to make a big deal out of powered vs. empowered. I'm just saying that you can cast a blood magic spell with lyrium as the power source and not blood. Not all blood magic spells, like mind control, but at least some of them you can.
But how are you defining a "blood magic spell"? Do you have a specific example of such a spell that could be performed using lyrium in lieu of blood?
All right, I think it's most plausible to assume DG was phrasing his statement somewhat carelessly, since he also said "there are things you can do only with blood" which would contradict his own statement of further down if taken literally.
As for what a "blood magic spell" is exactly, I've described the school of blood magic as a set of thematically connected spells that deal with mind control, demonology and manipulation of life essence. Those spells likely all involve blood in one way or the other, be it the Joining, creation of phylacteries, mind control or demon summoning. However, they may not need the blood to power them, but only as components. Which means they can theoretically be cast with normal mana, except that maybe the power requirements are so high that either lyrium or blood is needed to boost them. Specifically, this would apply to mind control and demon summoning, but not necessarily to creating phylacteries, demon containment like Malcolm Hawke did, or the Joining. Also, blood is a much more powerful boosting agent, and the amount of lyrium required may rarely be available to those who would use mind control or demon summoning anyway.
That is not correct. Mana is what mages use to tap into the Fade, and channel magical power. Mana is not magic, it is the capability to channel magic.
Mana isn't a thing. You can not cut a mage open and find mana. If mana represents drawing energy from the Fade, it's not really that far fetched to say it is the energy itself. The fact that lyrium bolsters mana also shows that Lyrium is involved with it.
All right, I think it's most plausible to assume DG was phrasing his statement somewhat carelessly, since he also said "there are things you can do only with blood" which would contradict his own statement of further down if taken literally.
As for what a "blood magic spell" is exactly, I've described the school of blood magic as a set of thematically connected spells that deal with mind control, demonology and manipulation of life essence. Those spells likely all involve blood in one way or the other, be it the Joining, creation of phylacteries, mind control or demon summoning. However, they may not need the blood to power them, but only as components. Which means they can theoretically be cast with normal mana, except that maybe the power requirements are so high that either lyrium or blood is needed to boost them. Specifically, this would apply to mind control and demon summoning, but not necessarily to creating phylacteries, demon containment like Malcolm Hawke did, or the Joining. Also, blood is a much more powerful boosting agent, and the amount of lyrium required may rarely be available to those who would use mind control or demon summoning anyway.
Gaider made it fairly clearthat mind-control required blood magic, it was manipulating life force, therefore needed life force to power it. For some reason we haven't gotten much of any information on how much energy it takes to summon a demon, though binding or dismissing it (presumably an important part) seems to require a lot.
All right, I think it's most plausible to assume DG was phrasing his statement somewhat carelessly, since he also said "there are things you can do only with blood" which would contradict his own statement of further down if taken literally.
As for what a "blood magic spell" is exactly, I've described the school of blood magic as a set of thematically connected spells that deal with mind control, demonology and manipulation of life essence. Those spells likely all involve blood in one way or the other, be it the Joining, creation of phylacteries, mind control or demon summoning. However, they may not need the blood to power them, but only as components. Which means they can theoretically be cast with normal mana, except that maybe the power requirements are so high that either lyrium or blood is needed to boost them. Specifically, this would apply to mind control and demon summoning, but not necessarily to creating phylacteries, demon containment like Malcolm Hawke did, or the Joining. Also, blood is a much more powerful boosting agent, and the amount of lyrium required may rarely be available to those who would use mind control or demon summoning anyway.
I don't know about all that... wouldn't someone have figured this out by now if mind control was at all possible through mana with lyrium augmentation? I mean, just how much lyrium are we talking about? Blood is a more potent source of power but it is not astronomically more potent than lyrium. The way I see it, the sustained mode called "Blood Magic" isn't just an abstraction that is used for gameplay purposes... we are literally using spells that are specifically made possibly by the working of "Blood Magic," if that makes sense at all... the fact that specific spells are not possible unless we call upon our characters' knowledge of "Blood Magic" and that no one has ever managed to cast these spells independent of blood magic tells me that it is not simply a lack of power that prevents mages from casting them through the use of mana.
Mana isn't a thing. You can not cut a mage open and find mana. If mana represents drawing energy from the Fade, it's not really that far fetched to say it is the energy itself. The fact that lyrium bolsters mana also shows that Lyrium is involved with it.
No. Again... Lyrium is NOT inherently magical. You could, in theory at least, find Lyrium which had absorbed NO magical pwoer, and was simply a fast growing crystal formation.
Mana IS a thing. It may not be a physical thing, but it is most certainly a thing. And it is not magic. Magic is its own thing.
@EmperorSahlertz: Would you agree that "The Fade" is pure magic? That mana is the capacity to store the Fade within him/herself. And that lyrium crystal naturally absorbs "Fade"? (Wherein "red lyrium" seems to devour "Fade")
Though - I might disagree with youre assertion about lyrium. While it may "just be the crystal" - like real crystal, I think it's capacity to grow depends on the amount of "Fade" in an area.
In other words - it's "mana" (capacity to contain "Fade") grows with greater accessibility to magic/"Fade") So, in a place blocked off from the Fade - lyrium crystal would cease to grow.
No. Again... Lyrium is NOT inherently magical. You could, in theory at least, find Lyrium which had absorbed NO magical pwoer, and was simply a fast growing crystal formation.
Source?
Mana IS a thing. It may not be a physical thing, but it is most certainly a thing. And it is not magic. Magic is its own thing.
Do you know what energy is? It's the capacity to do work. Sound familiar?
Source?
Do you know what energy is? It's the capacity to do work. Sound familiar?
WoT
You know what magic is? It is something that defies scientific explanation. Right now, we have the codex, that SPECIFICALLY tells us, that mana is NOT literally magical power, but rather the capability to channel it.
I don't know about all that... wouldn't someone have figured this out by now if mind control was at all possible through mana with lyrium augmentation? I mean, just how much lyrium are we talking about? Blood is a more potent source of power but it is not astronomically more potent than lyrium. The way I see it, the sustained mode called "Blood Magic" isn't just an abstraction that is used for gameplay purposes... we are literally using spells that are specifically made possibly by the working of "Blood Magic," if that makes sense at all... the fact that specific spells are not possible unless we call upon our characters' knowledge of "Blood Magic" and that no one has ever managed to cast these spells independent of blood magic tells me that it is not simply a lack of power that prevents mages from casting them through the use of mana.
I didn't mean it that way. There *is* a requirement for blood in these spells, enough to "color" them, so to speak. But if DG's statement has any meaning at all, it means that you can use lyrium beyond a certain basic power level. Not that it matters much, since those who would cast mind control spells in the first place are unlikely to have access to significant amounts of lyrium, and elsewhere - say, in Tevinter - the life of a slave may simply be cheaper.
WoT
No, I want a source that says the lyrium used to bolster mana is not related to magic. You saying lyrium doesn't need to be magical doesn't do anything but prove my point that mana is the cause of the bolster.
You know what magic is? It is something that defies scientific explanation. Right now, we have the codex, that SPECIFICALLY tells us, that mana is NOT literally magical power, but rather the capability to channel it.
Which is what energy is. If a fireball is shot at something, it burns. That bomb Anders made and activated with magic? Uses a scientific formula. The fact that magic doesn't have an explanation for everything doesn't mean that it cannot be explained scientifically in the ways that do make science.
No, I want a source that says the lyrium used to bolster mana is not related to magic. You saying lyrium doesn't need to be magical doesn't do anything but prove my point that mana is the cause of the bolster.
Which is what energy is. If a fireball is shot at something, it burns. That bomb Anders made and activated with magic? Uses a scientific formula. The fact that magic doesn't have an explanation for everything doesn't mean that it cannot be explained scientifically in the ways that do make science.
Magic is another source of energy, following laws we do not know. That explosive Anders used had magical aspects, because normal real-woorld explosives don't do that, especially not midevil ones whipped together with no prior testing. Magic is the manipulation of another form of energy, following rules not of our universe.
Regarding science and magic, there is no contradiction. If magic reliably acts according to certain laws rather than, say, the whim of a deity, then it can be explored using the scientific method. Some of the concepts needed to explain it may be different from those we use in the real world, but that does not invalidate the methodology of examination.
In the real world, energy takes many forms which can be transformed into each other. In much the same way, the lyrium in lyrium potions may carry energy that is transformed into mana as the mage consumes the potion, and the life essence in a Thedosian's blood may be a form of energy that can be used to power spells just as a mage's mana. Both may be transferable into each other but each form has additional properties which makes it viable for certain kinds of spells in much the same way as you can power a lightbulb with electrical energy but not with kinetic energy, even though electric motors and dynamos can transform one into the other.
I think it's pretty obvious for the most part, Blood Magic just gives you easy access to a Lyrium substitute.
A person with unlimited lyrium does not need blood magic to power-up his spells.
However, unlimited lyrium access is pretty damn rare.
There are, however, a LOT of humans running around like bottles of lyrium with legs.
Regarding science and magic, there is no contradiction. If magic reliably acts according to certain laws rather than, say, the whim of a deity, then it can be explored using the scientific method. Some of the concepts needed to explain it may be different from those we use in the real world, but that does not invalidate the methodology of examination.
In the real world, energy takes many forms which can be transformed into each other. In much the same way, the lyrium in lyrium potions may carry energy that is transformed into mana as the mage consumes the potion, and the life essence in a Thedosian's blood may be a form of energy that can be used to power spells just as a mage's mana. Both may be transferable into each other but each form has additional properties which makes it viable for certain kinds of spells in much the same way that you can power a lightbulb with electrical energy but not with kinetic energy, even though electric motors and dynamos can transform one into the other.
The larger issue with Blood Magic is the question whether or not the demons are sabotaging the information they've provided. Part of what I liked about Last Flight is Doctor Ian Maclolm, "You stood on the shoulders of geniuses and took the next step." Blood Magic learned from demons is fundamentally unearned. The people who possess it via demons don't actually understand it and have no real discipline regarding their use of the knowledge. In short, they don't respect the science. Which is a real-life criticism for corporate and government driven science that many individuals order the research and application of stuff they don't understand themselves.
Blood Magic taught by someone like Avernus who has been experimenting with it for two hundred years, however unethically, seems far more trustworthy.
No, I want a source that says the lyrium used to bolster mana is not related to magic. You saying lyrium doesn't need to be magical doesn't do anything but prove my point that mana is the cause of the bolster.
I am trying to explain to you that LYRIUM itself, is NOT the source of magic. It is the magic that is stored WITHIN the Lyrium which bolsters the mages' mana.
Magic is another source of energy, following laws we do not know. That explosive Anders used had magical aspects, because normal real-woorld explosives don't do that, especially not midevil ones whipped together with no prior testing. Magic is the manipulation of another form of energy, following rules not of our universe.
You using your opinion doesn't change the fact that magic followed this law, if not all of them. Energy takes many forms, as someone has already pointed out to you, Magic is no energy, magic is the expression of said energy. I've never seen anything to suggest otherwise.
I am trying to explain to you that LYRIUM itself, is NOT the source of magic. It is the magic that is stored WITHIN the Lyrium which bolsters the mages' mana.
And if you had actually read anything I've been writing, you'd know that I said mana is the energy stored in lyrium.
The larger issue with Blood Magic is the question whether or not the demons are sabotaging the information they've provided. Part of what I liked about Last Flight is Doctor Ian Maclolm, "You stood on the shoulders of geniuses and took the next step." Blood Magic learned from demons is fundamentally unearned. The people who possess it via demons don't actually understand it and have no real discipline regarding their use of the knowledge. In short, they don't respect the science. Which is a real-life criticism for corporate and government driven science that many individuals order the research and application of stuff they don't understand themselves.
Blood Magic taught by someone like Avernus who has been experimenting with it for two hundred years, however unethically, seems far more trustworthy.
That's why I said in the OP that this state of things has only one reasonable answer: do more research into blood magic rather than cementing our ignorance through (1) a summary ban on the Chantry's side, and (2) disinterest by the irresponsible mages. The present state of things prevents exactly those who would be interested in understanding rather than just power from doing any research into it.
I should mention, however, that the expression "you haven't earned this" translates 1:1 into "my ideology says you don't deserve it", and I've never seen it used another way. There are no fundamental standards for having earned something, and not everything does necessarily carry a price, as much as Protestant work ethic would have it otherwise. Complete knowledge can be gifted just as well as incomplete knowledge and isn't any less valuable for being a gift.
And if you had actually read anything I've been writing, you'd know that I said mana is the energy stored in lyrium.
Which is also FACTUALLY wrong. Mana is NOT energy.
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