245 réponses à ce sujet

[Gervaise]

With regard to the WoT reference to greater power being drawn from greater pain and suffering, in Masked Empire demons are definitely drawn to negative emotions.   People getting angry near a place where the veil is thin seems to effectively pull them through.   This could also account for why mages who are frightened and threatened in Kirkwall seem to become possessed so easily.   On the whole if you draw blood from someone else, even if they are a voluntary victim like Isolde, there is going to be fear and pain involved.   The greater it is, I guess the more powerful the demon that is attracted to assist.     It could be that where someone has simply cut themselves, they think the blood alone is powering the spell, when actually a small demon is on hand helping to do so.  

 

I think it highly unlikely that magic could be performed entirely without touching the Fade, apart from the sort of enchantments that tranquil and dwarves perform.   The whole point of the rite of tranquillity is that it severs connection to the Fade which not only prevents possession but also performance of magic.    It also takes away your emotions, which also seem to have some sort of connection with any normal magic, not just blood magic.

 

I suspect that the reason mind control magic works is because of the assistance of demons.   In a way it is a sort of temporary possession.    I feel that a lot of really powerful spells are only possible with the assistance of spirits, though not necessarily demons.    Both the ancient elves and the ancient Tevinter seem to have been able to perform spells for more powerful than in more recent times.    I'm pretty certain the alleged immortality of elves was in fact co-existence with spirits.    I'm also pretty certain that the creation of the eluvian network was with the assistance of spirits/demons, hence demons apparently knowing so much about them.    It is also likely the power behind this was blood.   However, this was likely only in order to attract the right sort of spirit to assist with the work.

 

Whether you use blood or lyrium it is the strength of connection to the Fade that is the key.       I wouldn't be too adamant about anything though, considering we shall shortly be encountering a great big hole in the Veil, large numbers of demons and presumably some explanations from such expert mages as Vivienne, Dorian and Solas.

[Ieldra]

Which is also FACTUALLY wrong. Mana is NOT energy.

Actually, the description comes as close to naming it as such as is possible without using the term. You are wrong. It is not, however, what ultimately powers spells, as game mechanics would suggest. The energy that powers spells is drawn either from the Fade or from life essence, and in the former case, we have no idea of what it actually is.

[Br3admax]

Which is also FACTUALLY wrong. Mana is NOT energy.

Your opinion > definitions, but I'm factually wrong? I accept your concession. 

[Gorguz]

Blood magic can be enhanced by lyrium---> blood with lyrium in it is more powerful than regular blood. That's how I think it works.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Your opinion > definitions, but I'm factually wrong? I accept your concession. 

It is not a matter of opinion. It is a matter of what the game tells us. And the game straight up says that mana is NOT a direct translation of magic. There is no more to it than that.

[TheEternalStudent]

You using your opinion doesn't change the fact that magic followed this law, if not all of them. Energy takes many forms, as someone has already pointed out to you, Magic is no energy, magic is the expression of said energy. I've never seen anything to suggest otherwise. 

 

And if you had actually read anything I've been writing, you'd know that I said mana is the energy stored in lyrium. 

Qunari Saarebas wield raw magic, not channeled into flame, lightning, ice or what will you. Furthermore it can draw life energy from others. I can channel electricity to do many things, that doesn't mean electricity doesn't exist.

[wcholcombe]

Early pre DAO lore indicated that BM in some form or fashion attracted the attention of demons.

Early lore in Thedas, indicates that BM was first learned from demons.

Gameplay in DAO and DA2 is very poor on all fronts not just BM with relation to it correlating with the lore.

Last Flight definitely indicates that the use of BM allows demons to talk to and tempt mages.  Notice the demons didn't show up and talk to her until after she had started using BM regularly.  Now, there are other indications of demons speaking to mages and possessing them, usually where the veil is thin, but I would assume it is possible in other places as well.

This other connection that allows demons to speak with mages using blood magic makes sense, as it would explain why demons are always so willing to teach bloodmagic.  It allows them to circumvent the veil and tempt the mages more regularly. 

 

As for good or evil, those tend to be social constructs.  From a human perspective abominations are evil. From demon perspectives becoming abominations is the reason mortal mages exist. Same with BM and other such things, it is a matter of perspective.  Personally I find it repugnant, but again that is my perspective.

 

Gaider and others have made comments in the past relating to the tempting/corrupting presence of using blood magic(I think WoT might even mention it), that there is always that temptation to use more blood for more power-or to use the blood of others(allies and enemies alike) to power your spells, then there is the vileness that is mind control.  Which may not seem quite so bad when viewed from the antiseptic view of a message board discussion, but is downright vile if you have read Last Flight.

 

To be completely honest though, the DA games have as I said previously, been rather week on the staying true to the lore front anyways:

1-No lyrium for templars

2-No blight disease

3-Mages being tempted by demons in the fade while they dream

4-Blood mages being reviled

5- etc etc etc

 

I know that playability vs. lore is a constant fight, but the DA games so far haven't been very constrained by lore.

[Hellion Rex]

Qunari Saarebas wield raw magic, not channeled into flame, lightning, ice or what will you. Furthermore it can draw life energy from others. I can channel electricity to do many things, that doesn't mean electricity doesn't exist.

Umm...I'm pretty sure they knocked us all on our asses with lightning. But that said, Saarebas are hedge mages, not full mages.

[TheEternalStudent]

Umm...I'm pretty sure they knocked us all on our asses with lightning. But that said, Saarebas are hedge mages, not full mages.

Hedge mages are persons with magical talent that never received 'proper' training, so their magic is channeled into new ways, beyond the classical defenition of the Chantry, or the Dales. They aren't lesser mages.

[Br3admax]

It is not a matter of opinion. It is a matter of what the game tells us. And the game straight up says that mana is NOT a direct translation of magic. There is no more to it than that.

Energy is not a direct translation of work either. Really, you have no argument, 

[Br3admax]

Hedge mages are persons with magical talent that never received 'proper' training, so their magic is channeled into new ways, beyond the classical defenition of the Chantry, or the Dales. They aren't lesser mages.

They can use fire and lightning, just not in the way a Chantry mage can. 

[Hellion Rex]

Hedge mages are persons with magical talent that never received 'proper' training, so their magic is channeled into new ways, beyond the classical defenition of the Chantry, or the Dales. They aren't lesser mages.

Well, I do consider them to be lesser in the sense that they don't have nearly as much versatility as an actual trained mage.

[Hellion Rex]

They can use fire and lightning, just not in the way a Chantry mage can. 

Yeah, like Gaider said, the Saarebas lacks elegance and refinement and it's pretty much "point and shoot" for those guys.

[TheEternalStudent]

Well, I do consider them to be lesser in the sense that they don't have nearly as much versatility as an actual trained mage.

 

Yeah, like Gaider said, the Saarebas lacks elegance and refinement and it's pretty much "point and shoot" for those guys.

They can use fire and lightning, just not in the way a Chantry mage can. 

Um... They can't learn 'classical' spells, but neither can Circle mages replicate thier abilities. They are essentially different, if you see that as inferior than I don't know what to say.

 

Saarebas throw magic at people just raw power, not channeled, because they aren't taught. And "the creation of charms, the use of curses and the ability to change their own forms' is not fitting with any known form of energy.

[Hellion Rex]

Um... They can't learn 'classical' spells, but neither can Circle mages replicate thier abilities. They are essentially different, if you see that as inferior than I don't know what to say.

 

Saarebas throw magic at people just raw power, not channeled, because they aren't taught. And "the creation of charms, the use of curses and the ability to change their own forms' is not fitting with any known form of energy.

Well, technically, we do kind of have curses (in the form of hexes) and we do have normal Circle mages that can shapeshift.

 

My impression is that for hedge magic, the hedge mage in question pretty much just had one very rare and peculiar ability. Yes, Circle mages can't replicate such powers, but they still have a broader range of abilities, hence me saying that hedge mages are, in my opinion, inferior.

 

...hold up. Is your argument that Saarebas are NOT hedge mages or that they ARE?

[Br3admax]

Um... They can't learn 'classical' spells, but neither can Circle mages replicate thier abilities. They are essentially different, if you see that as inferior than I don't know what to say.

I never said they were inferior, that's Eluvianus' opinion. I was only responding to you saying that Hedge Mages can't use fire or lightning and thus removed the science from magic. I'd never make my condescendence so apparent.

[TheEternalStudent]

Well, technically, we do kind of have curses (in the form of hexes) and we do have normal Circle mages that can shapeshift.

 

My impression is that for hedge magic, the hedge mage in question pretty much just had one very rare and peculiar ability. Yes, Circle mages can't replicate such powers, but they still have a broader range of abilities, hence me saying that hedge mages are, in my opinion, inferior.

 

...hold up. Is your argument that Saarebas are NOT hedge mages or that they ARE?

Hexes and curses are (presumably) different, as curses will last indefinitely, hexes are temporary. And in one instance 1 or 2 circle mages were taught some very basic aspects of shapeshifting.

Most of our information comes from the Chantry, so obviously us discussing hedge mages involves a lot of extrapolation, but hedge mages aren't even necessarily aware of their powers, so they may have fewer abilities to call on, but they have equivalent potential, and to use your energy argument, they can't just lose that power, so it has to be equivalent from some perspective.

And while I don't like the term hedge mage, I don't think you could claim the Saarebas have any real training, so yes, they would qualify as hedge mages.

[raging_monkey]

Hexes and curses are (presumably) different, as curses will last indefinitely, hexes are temporary. And in one instance 1 or 2 circle mages were taught some very basic aspects of shapeshifting.Most of our information comes from the Chantry, so obviously us discussing hedge mages involves a lot of extrapolation, but hedge mages aren't even necessarily aware of their powers, so they may have fewer abilities to call on, but they have equivalent potential, and to use your energy argument, they can't just lose that power, so it has to be equivalent from some perspective.And while I don't like the term hedge mage, I don't think you could claim the Saarebas have any real training, so yes, they would qualify as hedge mages.

arcane deranged(arcane derangement is umbrella term) is the alternate name for hedge magi

[TheEternalStudent]

arcane deranged(arcane derangement is umbrella term) is the alternate name for hedge magi

I'm a physics major, and I think that term's unbearably pretentious. These are people, not some unusual particle behavior.

[Br3admax]

But they have equivalent potential.

Depending on the type of hedge magic they learn, I'm pretty sure it could be slashed. Significantly. 

[Br3admax]

I'm a physics major, and I think that term's unbearably pretentious. These are people, not some unusual particle behavior.

Being people doesn't change that they practise unsafe and very different magic from legal Chantry organizations. 

[raging_monkey]

I'm a physics major, and I think that term's unbearably pretentious. These are people, not some unusual particle behavior.

never said it was accurate. I have a working knowledge on the subject as well but for some reason i dont mind it. Thats just what the writers call it. And from a philosophy point makes some sense

[TheEternalStudent]

Depending on the type of hedge magic they learn, I'm pretty sure it could be slashed. Significantly. 

Being people doesn't change that they practise unsafe and very different magic from legal Chantry organizations. 

Hedge mage just means non-Chantry magic, magic channeled in ways that the Chantry doesn't approve of. Comparing them doesn't work, you can't compare turning into a bear to a paralysis glyph, these are different abilities, and in their different environments, differently useful.

And my point was just that the term makes it sound like some bizarre (atmospheric for example) phenomena, not people. My complaint is just the term, I'm not arguing legality here.

[Willowhugger]

That's why I said in the OP that this state of things has only one reasonable answer: do more research into blood magic rather than cementing our ignorance through (1) a summary ban on the Chantry's side, and (2) disinterest by the irresponsible mages. The present state of things prevents exactly those who would be interested in understanding rather than just power from doing any research into it.

 

I should mention, however, that the expression "you haven't earned this" translates 1:1 into "my ideology says you don't deserve it", and I've never seen it used another way. There are no fundamental standards for having earned something, and not everything does necessarily carry a price, as much as Protestant work ethic would have it otherwise. Complete knowledge can be gifted just as well as incomplete knowledge and isn't any less valuable for being a gift.

 

I disagree strongly. The staggering ignorance, contempt for consequence, greed, and basic stupidity displayed by politicians for the world is enough to get me to believe that individuals should not be making laws about subjects they do not understand. This is in addition to the staggering failure of corporate-based science to properly vet its products. "Earning" knowledge is a simple way of stating that you have taken the time to understand it and its affects. To go with Ian Malcolm, a person can know 1+1=2 but if he doesn't understand arithmetic then he doesn't know anything of value.

 

It's a subject of philosophy as well as scientific ethics I've always been fascinated by, which is that schools should teach less rote learning and the processes of figuring out critical thinking as well as caution.

[Br3admax]

Hedge mage just means non-Chantry magic, magic channeled in ways that the Chantry doesn't approve of. Comparing them doesn't work, you can't compare turning into a bear to a paralysis glyph, these are different abilities, and in their different environments, differently useful.

And my point was just that the term makes it sound like some bizarre (atmospheric for example) phenomena, not people. My complaint is just the term, I'm not arguing legality here.

Not true. Once their magic manifests in a certain way, that's it. There's no turning back or changing it. They don't have the same potential they had before. Take those walking accidents waiting to happen in DA ][. The way they cast magic isn't just for animation purposes. They have no control over their power, at least not as much as a Circle Mage.