245 réponses à ce sujet

[Willowhugger]

I'd also like to disagree with the original poster that a blanket ban on Blood Magic is the wrong idea. The reasoning for why Blood Magic is bad is stupid. "It's against the laws of the Maker."-As Leliana says. That just inspires individuals like Avernus to say, "Men made the laws banning my research, not a god."

Which is reasonable.

 

No, instead, the law should be, "Blood Magic is outlawed because it's STUPID to use, dangerous, and the people who use it are dangerous and stupid."

 

Blood Magic can be used safely as Avernus shows with his long-term use of the material but the consequences of that research were the destruction of Warden's Keep, a rift in reality, plus God knows how many people who died in the process of experimentation. The results are only useful for strengthening Wardens as well as delaying their deaths--which is a consequence of Blood Magic to begin with.

 

The rest of Blood Magic like summoning and controlling demons, mind-control, plus draining others for magical boosts highlight its fundamentally immoral. Blood Magic can't be evil by itself like the One Ring of Sauron but it can only BE USED FOR EVIL with rare exceptions.

I say this as a Blood Mage gamer. I just think that the number of people who can use Blood Magic safely are like 1 out of every 1000 mages.

Which is not good odds.

[Willowhugger]

Not true. Once their magic manifests in a certain way, that's it. There's no turning back or changing it. They don't have the same potential they had before. Take those walking accidents waiting to happen in DA ][. The way they cast magic isn't just for animation purposes. They have no control over their power, at least not as much as a Circle Mage. 

Given we know apostates are captured, taken back to the Circle, and re-educated--this is wrong.

[pengwin21]

Hedge mage just means non-Chantry magic, magic channeled in ways that the Chantry doesn't approve of. Comparing them doesn't work, you can't compare turning into a bear to a paralysis glyph, these are different abilities, and in their different environments, differently useful.

And my point was just that the term makes it sound like some bizarre (atmospheric for example) phenomena, not people. My complaint is just the term, I'm not arguing legality here.

 

I don't think hedge mage and non-Chantry mage are the same thing. Morrigan and the Dalish seem to practice magic in a specific way (learning spells from grimoires and such), not the way hedge mages just have their magic manifest and are unable to cast spells normally.

 

Not all apostates are hedge mages (Bethany for instance).

[raging_monkey]

Ive always viewed BM as holopoint bullet effective and good for defence but excessive in most situations. I support the study and limited application of it but like all knowledge it comes with risks

[lil yonce]

But how are you defining a "blood magic spell"? Do you have a specific example of such a spell that could be performed using lyrium in lieu of blood?

Well, I don't have a specific spell because this information is pretty new and there aren't any details on that available, but a blood magic spell would be something in the blood magic school, like hemorrhage or blood wound are in the blood magic school, that can be powered with lyrium, with the exception of things in the blood magic school that we know can't be powered with lyrium like mind control, sending a conscious mind to the fade, and I think most, if not all, demonology.

[Ieldra]

I disagree strongly. The staggering ignorance, contempt for consequence, greed, and basic stupidity displayed by politicians for the world is enough to get me to believe that individuals should not be making laws about subjects they do not understand. This is in addition to the staggering failure of corporate-based science to properly vet its products. "Earning" knowledge is a simple way of stating that you have taken the time to understand it and its affects. To go with Ian Malcolm, a person can know 1+1=2 but if he doesn't understand arithmetic then he doesn't know anything of value.

 

It's a subject of philosophy as well as scientific ethics I've always been fascinated by, which is that schools should teach less rote learning and the processes of figuring out critical thinking as well as caution.

Better understanding does not automatically mean better ethics. Also, while I agree about preventing the ignorant from making important decisions, I would never, ever use the expression of "earning it" since that has so thoroughly ideologically unpleasant connotations. After all, who determines when you're "ready"? Ideologues move their goalposts to deny it unless you let their agenda dominate, and every side has ideologues. Do I know and understand enough? I adamantly refuse to let anyone else be the judge of that unless they demonstrate not only superior knowledge but a decided lack of vested interest in the matter at hand. I haven't met a single person who spoke about this in terms of having earned the right who fit either of those categories, even remotely.

 

Going to answer your other post tomorrow. It's getting late.

[Br3admax]

Given we know apostates are captured, taken back to the Circle, and re-educated--this is wrong.

Apostate =/= Hedge Mage, David Gaider>you 

[raging_monkey]

Apostate =/= Hedge Mage, David Gaider>you

so by DGs comparison hawke/bethany was a hedge mage.

[Br3admax]

so by DGs comparison hawke/bethany was a hedge mage.

You do realise that Malcolm:

 

A ) Taught them both

B ) Was a part of a Circle at some point

[raging_monkey]

You do realise that Malcolm: A ) Taught them bothB ) Was a part of a Circle at some point

i know this, but the whole apostate are hedge mages are a bit of a misnomer to me

[pengwin21]

All hedge mages are apostates.

 

All apostates are not hedge mages.

[TheJediSaint]

Apostate= Mage that's not part of the circle.

 

Hedge Mage= Mage with no formal training.

 

All hedge mages are apostates, but not all apostates are hedge mages.

 

Am I missing something here?

[EmperorSahlertz]

Energy is not a direct translation of work either. Really, you have no argument, 

Uhm.. You are the one lacking any evidence to back up your claim. You say mana=magic. The game itself say that it isn't so. I am not the one having to prove the game right. YOU are the one having to prove your claim.

[raging_monkey]

Apostate= Mage that's not part of the circle. Hedge Mage= Mage with no formal training. All hedge mages are apostates, but not all apostates are hedge mages. Am I missing something here?

no thats the general assumption but then something happened in discussion and things got muddy

[Willowhugger]

You do realise that Malcolm:

 

A ) Taught them both

B ) Was a part of a Circle at some point

 

That seems to be splitting hairs tremendously. We've also seen Keepers taken back to the Circle.

See Redemption.

[TheJediSaint]

That seems to be splitting hairs tremendously. We've also seen Keepers taken back to the Circle.

See Redemption.

I would count Keepers as professionally trained mages (They're trained by other Keepers) and therefore are not Hedge Mages.  On the same note, Morrigan is not a hedge mage because she received training from Flemeth.

[Br3admax]

Uhm.. You are the one lacking any evidence to back up your claim. You say mana=magic. The game itself say that it isn't so. I am not the one having to prove the game right. YOU are the one having to prove your claim.

I said mana was magical energy and that magic was the expression of said energy. You keep trying, and all you're doing is being obtuse. 

[EmperorSahlertz]

I said mana was magical energy and that magic was the expression of said energy. You keep trying, and all you're doing is being obtuse. 

And I am saying you are wrong. And the game says, you are wrong. Mana is NOT the energy, mana is the gas tank. Your claim is as ridiculous as saying that the gas in the tank = energy. It is an oversimplification. And an inaccurate one at that.

[Medhia_Nox]

Art cannot be explained by science.  Artistic technique can be reproducible - and the very nature of art is observation - and artistic tools can manipulate principles of nature (Nature =/= Science - science is a system of classification and that is all it is.) - but artistic value is not reproducible, each situation is unique (in fact, it's inability to be reproduced is ultimately it's value) - and the value of any given artistic piece is totally subjective, but often draws a consensus from the masses which is undeniable. 

 

Magic - may, or may not - be able to be categorized by the scientific method.  That it is drawn from thought already gives it a malleable quality that will likely never be able to be reproducible.  Take for example Valor - whom we meet in the Origin.  It states that his weapons are ones of belief - and for them to work - one must believe that they do.

 

Then we have the mage in the tower who, once it is explained to him, becomes so nervous that he sets himself on fire (self-immolate is not a spell we're familiar with).

 

The last area of the library (and why we're throwing fireballs in a library is beyond me) - shows a mana shield protecting a mage from a fireball.  The mage's ability to resist the fireball - we are told - is totally predicated upon the notion that he believes his magic is strong enough to resist such.

 

I'm told in Last Flight we even have a mage that creates her own spells.

 

"If" lyrium created the Urn of Sacred Ashes by belief in the Urn... then that even further solidifies that belief plays a major roll in the production and manipulation of magic. 

 

If belief is involved - science is not the tool we should be using to try to understand magic.

[Br3admax]

And I am saying you are wrong. And the game says, you are wrong. Mana is NOT the energy, mana is the gas tank. Your claim is as ridiculous as saying that the gas in the tank = energy. It is an oversimplification. And an inaccurate one at that.

No, it's not, no, it doesn't, and all you've shown is that you have no idea what you're talking about.

[EmperorSahlertz]

No, it's not, no, it doesn't, and all you've shown is that you have no idea what you're talking about.

You havn't shown anything... All you've done is continuesly say that mana = energy. If you absolutely want to equate mana to anything, then equate it to fuel, or a fuel tank. It is NOT energy.

[KainD]

I don't know about all that... wouldn't someone have figured this out by now if mind control was at all possible through mana with lyrium augmentation? I mean, just how much lyrium are we talking about? Blood is a more potent source of power but it is not astronomically more potent than lyrium. The way I see it, the sustained mode called "Blood Magic" isn't just an abstraction that is used for gameplay purposes... we are literally using spells that are specifically made possibly by the working of "Blood Magic," if that makes sense at all... the fact that specific spells are not possible unless we call upon our characters' knowledge of "Blood Magic" and that no one has ever managed to cast these spells independent of blood magic tells me that it is not simply a lack of power that prevents mages from casting them through the use of mana.

What if it IS the lack of power? What if mind control requires more mana than any currently known mage has? I had a theory about this and dreamers. Dreamers can actually mind control people without blood magic, so there ARE mages that can do this, but they are rare. But I don't think dreamers are special, I just think that they are bluntly mages with grotesque power level, and that it is also the reason they can enter the fade without the aid of lyrium or blood, unlike other mages, simply because they are powerful like that, and that is also the reason they attract demons so much, because they shine bright in the fade. I totally think mind control is possible with enough lyrium btw. Who is going to do that though? Mind control is a brief application that needs to be further sustained for longer affect. Who is going to prepare a lyrium enhanced ritual around a person to mind control them?

[Br3admax]

You havn't shown anything... All you've done is continuesly say that mana = energy. If you absolutely want to equate mana to anything, then equate it to fuel, or a fuel tank. It is NOT energy.

Do you know what fuel is? It's a substance. It exist tangibly. Mana doesn't. Does energy really? No. You continue to deny that mana is energy, when it is presented in game as the measure of how much magic one can use. It is the measurement, not the power itself. It's not a fuel tank. The mage is the fuel tank. It's not the fuel. The fuel is what stores the energy, I for one think it's lyrium, in the ground or in the blood and bodies of mundanes and to a much greater extent mages. Nothing supports that it is anything more than a measure, but you continue to deny it based on, from what I see, nothing but your opinion that somehow something magical can't be explain scientifically. 

[Willowhugger]

I would count Keepers as professionally trained mages (They're trained by other Keepers) and therefore are not Hedge Mages.  On the same note, Morrigan is not a hedge mage because she received training from Flemeth.

 

A Hedge Mage is a Mage who trains themselves. I frankly think there's no evidence that a Hedge Mage is functionally all that different from a Circle Mage save how their magic expresses itself.

[Br3admax]

A Hedge Mage is a Mage who trains themselves. I frankly think there's no evidence that a Hedge Mage is functionally all that different from a Circle Mage save how their magic expresses itself.

A hedge mage is not a mage who teaches themselves. It is a mage without formal training. Ones that can never learn Circle Magic.