A Hedge Mage is a Mage who trains themselves. I frankly think there's no evidence that a Hedge Mage is functionally all that different from a Circle Mage save how their magic expresses itself.
Gaider has said that Hedge Mages can't cast spells normally and our primary example of Hedge Mages (Sarebaas) are far more limited in the schools and variety they can draw upon compared to Circle or other trained mages.
alright, after having to take some pain killers to make the headache this thread has given me go away, from the posts and evidence ive seen this is my conclusion:
1. Using blood magic to power normal spells like frostbite, arcane bolt, and fireball does not require the touching of the fade and instead uses the power of blood for the fuel.
2. Using blood magic spells like sacrifice, hemorrhage, blood slave, and summoning demons requires a tap into the fade as well, and makes the mage more open to corruption.
And frankly i tend to view it this way.... yeah the blood mage may not even touch the spells in category #2, but there is always the possibility that could happen. I hate that argument, because im sorry just because i own a sword doesnt mean someday i cant walk up to you and stab you. You have to look at it from person to person. Was Malcolm Hawke an evil whacko for using blood magic, no he is seen as a good character.... Was Alain a bad character for using blood magic? (not just how they wrote him) No, he genuinely hated the thought and used the magic to help you and possibly condemned himself for it. Its all about willpower and the ability to resist the temptation of going too far.
Magic - may, or may not - be able to be categorized by the scientific method. That it is drawn from thought already gives it a malleable quality that will likely never be able to be reproducible.
That does not follow. Mental disciplines are not beyond understanding, else they couldn't be taught. We don't know much about magical education, but I'd be very surprised if it didn't involve quite reliable methods to condition a mage's mind. There quite a few real-world mental disciplines that aim to control our usually somewhat chaotic thought processes, and while I can't attest to their usefulness, their practicioners claim they're very reliable if time-consuming to learn, and some of them use modern technology to analyze how these things work, in order to make their disciplines more effective.
I'd also like to disagree with the original poster that a blanket ban on Blood Magic is the wrong idea. The reasoning for why Blood Magic is bad is stupid. "It's against the laws of the Maker."-As Leliana says. That just inspires individuals like Avernus to say, "Men made the laws banning my research, not a god."
Which is reasonable.
No, instead, the law should be, "Blood Magic is outlawed because it's STUPID to use, dangerous, and the people who use it are dangerous and stupid."
Blood Magic can be used safely as Avernus shows with his long-term use of the material but the consequences of that research were the destruction of Warden's Keep, a rift in reality, plus God knows how many people who died in the process of experimentation. The results are only useful for strengthening Wardens as well as delaying their deaths--which is a consequence of Blood Magic to begin with.
The rest of Blood Magic like summoning and controlling demons, mind-control, plus draining others for magical boosts highlight its fundamentally immoral. Blood Magic can't be evil by itself like the One Ring of Sauron but it can only BE USED FOR EVIL with rare exceptions.
I say this as a Blood Mage gamer. I just think that the number of people who can use Blood Magic safely are like 1 out of every 1000 mages.
Which is not good odds.
I didn't say the ban was wrong exactly. I said it had undesirable side effects that need to be considered. I will, however, say, that an *exceptionless* ban is wrong. Blood magic needs to be studied, preferably in controlled conditions and by knowledgable, mentally stable and reasonably good-intentioned people. I would also make a distinction between blood magic as the practice of powering spells with (your own) blood, and the much more problematic spells of the blood magic school as defined in the OP. I do not think putting the practicioners of the former summarily to death is justified.
As for the stupidity, that argument is built on the implicit assumption that there is always an alternative. That's not a solid foundation, rather it's made of the thin air of wishful thinking. You can claim that Isseya was stupid when she mind-controlled the griffons, because her lack of understanding lead to the loss of all the griffons. But how does that matter if not doing it might have cost Thedas the war? Naturally we will never know if it would have, but consider the events of the book and tell me it's not a distinct possibility. You can claim that the escaped Circle mage cornered by templars is stupid when she uses blood magic to defend herself, yet what alternative does she have? Nobody can legitimately call that stupid because if you find yourself in that situation, which kind of fate is more acceptable is for you to say and for you only, and taking recourse to the law is not legitimate if the matter of contention is exactly the question of whether the law is unjust.
Also, while *that* may be indeed considered stupid as a general guideline, I find nothing fundamentally immoral in summoning demons, and I can see a lot of situations where temporary mind-control would be legitimate, immensely helpful and result in a more desirable outcome. Just think of hostage situations. Temporary mind-control would be the perfect tool to handle those. It's just that we tend to think the risks of allowing it even (or especially) to law-enforcement people would outweigh the benefits. I don't disagree with that, but as shown in the previous example, when the stakes get higher that might change.
Do you know what fuel is? It's a substance. It exist tangibly. Mana doesn't. Does energy really? No. You continue to deny that mana is energy, when it is presented in game as the measure of how much magic one can use. It is the measurement, not the power itself. It's not a fuel tank. The mage is the fuel tank. It's not the fuel. The fuel is what stores the energy, I for one think it's lyrium, in the ground or in the blood and bodies of mundanes and to a much greater extent mages. Nothing supports that it is anything more than a measure, but you continue to deny it based on, from what I see, nothing but your opinion that somehow something magical can't be explain scientifically.
Do you know what energy is?
And apparently you still have no clue as to what Lyrium is. Despite I have repeatedly explained it to you...
I am stating what the game tells us. THAT is what I use to describe mana. You keep going on like a broken record about bullshit claims of Lyrium in the blood (even though that would be fatal to mages) and some even more bullshit claim about energy coursing through mages constantly... Mana does not have to be a physical thing, to not be energy. It is magical after all. Mana is, and will remain despite your ridiculous claims, nothing but a fuel at best, which is converted into magical energy by mages. Mana is NOT energy in and of itself. That is simply not how energy works.
Can we please drop this side issue? It is completely irrelevant to the topic.
The question that started this was "What exactly is a blood magic spell." My answer is this:
The school of blood magic - as opposed to the practice of powering spells in general through blood - is a set of thematically connected spells that deal with demonology, mind and emotion control and the manipulation of life essence. Spells of this school are called blood magic spells, and one of their common characteristics is that according to current knowledge, they all require life essence in form of blood in some capacity.
Non-blood magic spells are powered by energy the mage draws from the Fade. Blood can substitute for that, removing the need for the mage to touch the Fade in order to cast spells. Blood can also be used to boost all kinds of spells. Powering or boosting a spell that does not require blood by blood does not make it a blood magic spell.
Blood magic spells need to be powered at least partly with blood. To which extent is unclear and may differ between spells. The expression "to be powered" includes using blood as a component, since the blood is needed for the spell to work and it is expended in the process.
Lyrium can be used to boost all kinds of spells, but can't substitute for the blood if that is required by the spell. Thus, boosting a blood magic spell with lyrium does not change its nature as a blood magic spell.
Known blood magic spells and rituals include demon summoning, mind control, opening the Veil, demonic containment (as seen in DA2 Legacy) and generally wards keyed to a specific person, creation of phylacteries and the Grey Wardens' Joining ritual as well as several of the games' damaging spells that attack someone's blood or cause damage through magical bloodletting.
If anyone here thinks differently about this, I'd like to hear it, and their reasons why.
Blood would also have to be the fuel source and not just an ingredient. Finn's ritual for instance is not actually Blood Magic, but the inclusion of Blood makes it appear so. The Joinning is also in a greyzone, mostly because we don't really know how it works. It may or it may not be Blood Magic. Phylacteries are powered by the blood stored within it, but they can be created by non-mages presumably.
Also spells that directly influence blood, like hemorraghe and blood boil would probably also be pure Blood Magic spells.
Blood would also have to be the fuel source and not just an ingredient. Finn's ritual for instance is not actually Blood Magic, but the inclusion of Blood makes it appear so. The Joinning is also in a greyzone, mostly because we don't really know how it works. It may or it may not be Blood Magic. Phylacteries are powered by the blood stored within it, but they can be created by non-mages presumably.
Also spells that directly influence blood, like hemorraghe and blood boil would probably also be pure Blood Magic spells.
David Gaider has confirmed that the Joining and the creation of phylacteries are a form of blood magic (see top of page 2). For that reason, I have used "BM spells need life essence in form of blood in some capacity" as a common attribute. Finn's ritual would also be classified as blood magic. The distinction between fuel source and ingredient is artificial since in both cases, the life essence in the blood is expended and goes into the spell somehow.
BTW, I have no idea why the phylacteries aren't reviled more. They make it possible to cast a spell on someone from afar after all (WoTI). That's almost as bad as mind control. On the other hand, perhaps that's another official lore element that needs to be disregarded because it's so utterly incongruous with everything else. We have zero evidence of phylacteries having been used that way even in the many cases we encounter where this capacity absolutely would've been used. I guess we'll see how things are intended to go in DAI.
I have included the damaging spells in my list.
David Gaider has confirmed that the Joining and the creation of phylacteries are a form of blood magic (see top of page 2). For that reason, I have used "BM spells need life essence in form of blood in some capacity" as a common attribute. Finn's ritual would also be classified as blood magic. The distinction between fuel source and ingredient is artificial since in both cases, the life essence in the blood is expended and goes into the spell somehow.
But that is exactly it. In Finn's spell the blood did NOT do any such thing. It was merely an ingredient used to target a specific group of people. It was not a Blood Magic (school) spell. It just involved blood as an ingredient. However, to the unenlightened, such a distinction is hard to make. After all, if a Templar were to witniss it, all he would see is a mage using blood, then comming to the obvious facevalue conclusion that it is Blood Magic.
The school of blood magic - as opposed to the practice of powering spells in general through blood - is a set of thematically connected spells that deal with demonology, mind and emotion control and the manipulation of life essence. Spells of this school are called blood magic spells, and one of their common characteristics is that according to current knowledge, they all require life essence in form of blood in some capacity.
Entropy school falls under that as well. Manipulation of life energy, mind and body: Life Drain, Horror, Disorientation, Paralyze etc.
Entropy school falls under that as well. Manipulation of life energy, mind and body: Life Drain, Horror, Disorientation, Paralyze etc.
I was careful not to say that *all* such spells are blood magic spells, but only those with the common characteristic that they need life essence in form of blood in some capacity in order be cast. I'd restrict your list to Life Drain (manipulation of life essence) and Horror (emotion control), but yeah, that illustrates one of the problems. Why are some spells that do these things reviled and others not? Just because some use blood? As I said in the OP, there is an element of superstition in people's reaction to blood magic which is partly independent from the actual danger it poses.
I was careful not to say that *all* such spells are blood magic spells, but only those with the common characteristic that they need life essence in form of blood in some capacity in order be cast. I'd restrict your list to Life Drain (manipulation of life essence) and Horror (emotion control), but yeah, that illustrates one of the problems. Why are some spells that do these things reviled and others not? Just because some use blood? As I said in the OP, there is an element of superstition in people's reaction to blood magic which is partly independent from the actual danger it poses.
It's like I said earlier, I think that ''blood'' magic spells are just spells that require more power that most mages don't have on their own, so they have to use blood to power those spells. I think that in-game blood magic school is basically a bunch of A class entropy spells. They function at the same principle but require more energy to power. Again I think all these things would be possible to pull of with a lyrium ritual as well.
Edit: Just realized that I didn't answer your other question. I think blood magic is despised for using blood as a power source, not for spells it casts. People think back to the times when a bunch of people were systematically killed to fuel rituals in ancient Tevinter. It's basically casting spells through pain and death.
It's like I said earlier, I think that ''blood'' magic spells are just spells that require more power that most mages don't have on their own, so they have to use blood to power those spells. I think that in-game blood magic school is basically a bunch of A class entropy spells. They function at the same principle but require more energy to power. Again I think all these things would be possible to pull of with a lyrium ritual as well.
Edit: Just realized that I didn't answer your other question. I think blood magic is despised for using blood as a power source, not for spells it casts. People think back to the times when a bunch of people were systematically killed to fuel rituals in ancient Tevinter. It's basically casting spells through pain and death.
Hmm...I'm looking for a phrasing that may capture this without being arbitrary. What about this: blood magic spells are those spells which you cannot infuse with energy drawn from the Fade to power them, but must use life essence in form of blood instead. BTW, this is actually somewhat incongruous with a strong demonic connection, since demons are creatures of the Fade.But that is exactly it. In Finn's spell the blood did NOT do any such thing. It was merely an ingredient used to target a specific group of people. It was not a Blood Magic (school) spell. It just involved blood as an ingredient. However, to the unenlightened, such a distinction is hard to make. After all, if a Templar were to witniss it, all he would see is a mage using blood, then comming to the obvious facevalue conclusion that it is Blood Magic.
Yes, I think that's quite possible. And for the unscrupulous at least, blood is much more readily available than lyrium as well as more powerful. There is, however, the demon connection. How would you explain that?
I personally think the demon thing works sorta like in Warhammer. Demons almost don't see mundanes in the fade, and I think that the stronger the mage, the brighter they shine in the fade and the more demons they attract. When you start to cast powerful spells, rituals with tons of lyrium, or blood magic infused spells it lights up like a beacon in the fade and demons react to it. This is also why I think Dreamers are just very powerful mages and that is why they attract demons more.
Lyrium in the blood (even though that would be fatal to mages)
It not fatal at all, if it's not RAW lyrium. To date, the biggest problem the processed lyrium can give to mages is to "trasform their bodies".
Let's keep the discussion civil, I mean, there are many holes to be filled, and nobody expect you to remeber that codex about lyrium, but attacking an other user with false information doesn't make you look well.
I have to stop being hypocrite.
Hmm...I'm looking for a phrasing that may capture this without being arbitrary. What about this: blood magic spells are those spells which you cannot infuse with energy drawn from the Fade to power them, but must use life essence in form of blood instead. BTW, this is actually somewhat incongruous with a strong demonic connection, since demons are creatures of the Fade.
Also, that would exclude those spells which DG referred to as being a type of blood magic, and I'm unwilling to discount his statement, so it would mean we have yet another subdivision.
The thing is, that just because blood is involved in the spell, does not make it Blood Magic. It is an academic greyzone. Some Templars and Circle mages might look through fingers with Finn's spell, while others would brand him Maleficar and execute him. But his spell wasn't part of the School of Blood, so it isn't Blood Magic (higher case).
However, it should also be noted, and it is a rather important facet actually, that Blood Magic is also used as an umbrella term to any and all illegal forms of magic, especially by the uninformed. A peasant might look at shapeshifting and call it Blood Magic, because it is an illegal form of magic. This is probably because the most well known brand of Maleficarum arts is Blood Magic, and thus the term Blood Mage and Maleficar has become synonymous to the common man. Even though technically, they are not necessarily the same.
According to the Mage in Asunder, most hedge mages went crazy and most of them didn't actually use magic in the conventional sense, but more as a special sense they weren't even really aware they were using.
Possession (Warning- Dragon Age: Asunder and Last Flight spoilers)
Going back to what we said earlier about demonic possession, I don’t believe that using blood magic as a power source and in the process not touching the Fade makes you immune to the risk. Being connected to the Fade does not seem to be necessary for possession. My example lies within Dragon Age: Asunder, where even tranquils who by nature are completely severed from the Fade are capable of being possessed. An excerpt from World of Thedas- Volume 1 states:
“While the rite makes the demon possession difficult, it does not actually render it impossible. Without emotion to mine, spirits are simply uninterested in Tranquil mages. If a spirit is coaxed to touch a Tranquil’s mind, however, the rite may be reversed.” WOT1 pg.101
The one common thread among all the passages I’ve read about blood magic says that it increases the risk of possession. I would say that this most likely applies the heaviest towards using actual blood magic tree abilities, rather than simply using your blood as a power source. It is also reasonable to consider the possibility of blood magic abilities that require the use of demons, much like the abilities used by Spirit Healers that rely on the use of actual spirits, and if so the implications of the risk of possession are much more evident. If such abilities due exist, however, they have not yet currently been stated. Overall I believe the increased risk is due to the blood mage being much more attractive towards spirits as a possible host, as that level of magic is more potent and those signifies a more powerful mage in the eyes of the Spirits touching the fade or otherwise.
Going to the lines in World of Thedas that say that differing levels of pain also increase the potency of blood magic spells, I don’t see why that can’t work with all other lore we currently have of blood magic. There hasn’t really been a lot of opportunities to show the relation of pain and blood magic spells. What we have seen are actions, different blood mages slicing themselves and what not to cast spells, it’s not beyond reason to think that the amount of pain they experience some how relates to spell power. It is afterall an entirely different kind of magic than normal schools, regardless of the power source (save for blood exclusive spells) so different rules applying to it despite not showing up in text until WOT1 is understandable. And if you do take that into consideration, demons are attracted by emotions, of which pain causes some of the strongest emotions there is causing another reason for higher risk of possession.
It can also be said that the perception of increased risk could also simply fall in line with circumstances most mages who resort to blood magic find themselves in: at the end of a templar’s sword. The vast majority of instances since the founding of the Templar Order are most likely this scenerio where a mage turns to blood magic through desperation, and ultimately to the help of demons becoming an abomination through the very same desperation. Creating the perception of all blood mages being at a high risk of possession.
WOT1 marks the origins as possible coming from the old god Dumat, who very well could have been an extremely powerful spirit, possibly a demon, but what Dumat and the other old gods really were is still a mystery. Although the origin of all blood magic may have started with a mage learning it from a demon, further spread of the knowledge does not require any further actions from said demon. Proof of that can be seen in Last Flight where Calien taught Isseya blood magic verbally. If it can be taught verbally it can certainly be taught through a Tome as it has in Dragon Age: Origins and Dragon Age 2.
Reavers and Blood Quality (Warning- Dragon Age: The Silent Grove, Those Who Speak, and Until We Sleep Spoilers)
Not only is blood magic seen as a much more potent power source than mana, but the quality/type of the blood itself also alters the potency. Proof of this is seen in Dragon Age: The Silent Grove, Those Who Speak, and Until We Sleep. In these comics Alistair is looking for his father, Maric, and we discover that both their Theirin blood carries within it the blood of a great dragon. This blood was shown to have been consumed by Calenhad Theirin the Great under the suggestion of “a witch” (probably Flemeth, given her constant manipulation of the Theirins). This knowledge was given to Alistair by Sten, now the Ariishok, and was gathered by the Qunari. It’s a differing view than what the Chantry historians say about Calenhad, but the Qunari are the closest thing to a third party that we have in regards to Feralden history so I’m inclined to believe their research. Consuming this great dragon blood effectively made Calenhad a Reaver, boosting his strength and also leaving within his bloodline the ability to awaken great dragons. Reavers themselves can be viewed as using a type of blood magic: drinking dragon/ wyvern blood, to gain new abilities much like the Warden’s Joining,
Coming full circle in Until We Sleep we find out the ultimate fate of Maric. Tevinter Magister Aurelian Titus, a blood mage, was draining Maric’s blood into a blood mage device, known as the Magrallen, in order to gain increased power to that of an extremely powerful Dreamer. The power of this blood would enable him to alter the minds of the entire population of Thedas (aside from dwarves I guess) through the use of mass mind altering blood magic. In these comics great dragon blood is seen as the “old blood,” and carries within it much more power than blood from normal Thedasians.
Possible Risk
Citing The Last Flight again there is evidence of very real consideration to keep in mind when using blood magic. I briefly touched upon this in my last post but through continued analysis I believe it warrants further consideration . Repeated use of your blood as a power source may also carry the unforeseen consequence of accelerating the aging process, effectively lowering your life expectancy. A passage from Dragon Age: Last Flight concerning Isseya states:
“The darkspawn taint was growing stronger in her. She felt it with fatalistic sureness. It was widely rumored among the Grey Warden that the corruption in their blood advanced more quickly during the Blight. No one knew for certain, because the taint affected them all differently and few dared speak openly of what it did to them… but Iseya felt the truth of the rumor in her bones, and every spell of blood magic she worked on the tainted griffons seemed to accelerate its spread.” Last Flight pg. 207
Isseya and Garahel are twins. They both joined the Grey Wardens at the same time, and at the end of their part of Last Flight they had served in the Grey Wardens for 13 years, having joined a year before the Fourth Blight started. The onset of taint in Grey Wardens is tied to age outside of Blights, and even taking the notion of a Blight increasing the rate into consideration, both twins have served for the same span of time, with Garahel arguable being in the thick of the blight for even longer than Isseya. What better gauge of physically seeing the aging process than watching the rate at which the taint spreads in between twins; One who actively uses blood magic, and one who has never. During the last days of the Fourth Blight the taint within Isseya had spread heavily through her body to the point of hiding her appearance from her fellow Wardens. Garahel on the other hand showed no visible signs of the taint on in his outward appearance.
Knowing the relation that age has with the natural spread of taint and having the comparison between twins, I believe this shows proof that using your own blood as a power source is the same as spending your own life essence, effectively aging yourself however slightly. That’s not to say that blood magic can’t also extend your life through blood magic techniques such as the case of Avernus. The price of his centuries of life however, were at the trade of many others and who knows what else.
All this being said, if I were a mage in Thedas, I certainly would learn how to use blood magic as a power source. I view it as a type of mana credit, where if I’m found in a life or death situation and find my mana supply expended, I will certainly pull from the hidden reserves found in my blood in order to survive regardless of risks to my life expectancy or what have you. Finally I will say that these various sources simply cite a higher risk of possession. Even a 1% chance more than a normal mage is still considered higher, and I think there are plenty of potential reasons to make that a truth and a risk to keep in mind when using blood magic in both forms.
(Side Note: I wouldn't consider World of Thedas as out of world, the corrections made to it were written by Genitivi and refer to the in world author of WoT. Dragon Age: The World of Thedas- Volume 1: An Erratum by Brother Genitivi (Blog entry correction to the World of Thedas))
Modifié par Solrest, 25 septembre 2014 - 07:44 .
Last Flight definitely indicates that the use of BM allows demons to talk to and tempt mages. Notice the demons didn't show up and talk to her until after she had started using BM regularly. Now, there are other indications of demons speaking to mages and possessing them, usually where the veil is thin, but I would assume it is possible in other places as well.
This other connection that allows demons to speak with mages using blood magic makes sense, as it would explain why demons are always so willing to teach bloodmagic. It allows them to circumvent the veil and tempt the mages more regularly.
As for good or evil, those tend to be social constructs. From a human perspective abominations are evil. From demon perspectives becoming abominations is the reason mortal mages exist. Same with BM and other such things, it is a matter of perspective. Personally I find it repugnant, but again that is my perspective.
The biggest issue with thinking that using blood to power spells is safer then using actual blood magic is the temptation/corruption factor. Gaider and others have made comments in the past relating to the tempting/corrupting presence of using blood magic(I think WoT might even mention it), that there is always that temptation to use more blood for more power-or to use the blood of others(allies and enemies alike) to power your spells, then there is the vileness that is mind control. Which may not seem quite so bad when viewed from the antiseptic view of a message board discussion, but is downright vile if you have read Last Flight.
@Solrest:
Until We Sleep was the one comic I don't know. Thanks for the info. So it appears that blood has some non-physical attributes beyond simply carrying life essence. It would be interesting to see if DAI will add any new lore about this.
@wcholcombe:
There is no evidence that demons can reach through the Veil. Every instance we witness, regardless of the involvement of blood magic, has the demons speaking while a mage touches the Fade, or through an actual Veil tear.
As I see it, the temptation to extend your source of power to others is the primary reason using blood magic as a power source presents a risk, not just because you're harming others but because it's plausible that you must reach through the Fade to touch others' life essence at a distance, and *then* you'll hear the demons speak. Which means it actually *is* safer if you restrict yourself to your own blood, for temptation there may be, but unlike a situation where you touch the Fade, either in order to cast a BM spell or to enact a blood sacrifice at a distance, that tempation lies only in yourself. There are no demons to enhance it, and there is no risk of possession. Using your own blood as a power source is not intrinsically more risky than any type of action that benefits you by harming others.
Also, we do know that you *always* hear demons speaking when you're touching the Fade. That's also in Last Flight. Only if you're not using BM while touching the Fade, it's usually not more than a distant whisper.
Ieldra, you have done a lot of research on this. Do you think a distinction should be made between spells that are powered by blood, and spells that simply have it as an ingredient? I don't think there's any evidence that the mere presence of blood brings all the nasty side effects of blood magic. This might make the Joining and phylacteries not real blood magic, as presumably the lyrium in the Joining is there to power it.
Although, IIRC, when the Magisters breached the golden city, they murdered 200 slaves and used tons of lyrium as well, so perhaps even Maleficars find lyrium useful in blood magic spells.
I think the end result being the damage a mage can do is the end point of this debate. It seems clear that temptation to reach for more power is there be it the mere use of blood magic (a cheap and quick alternative to lyrium, a short cut if you will) or the deliberate acts of a mage in the School of Blood Magic, which is clearly a power grab to hold dominion over others. The end point is this, a mage can do farm more harm than a warrior with a sword, or an archer with a bow. I think this is talked about in both games and is a valid point.
The gun control analogy works. A person with a semi-auto assault rifle with huge amp clips can do more harm to their surroundings that a person with a knife. Both can do harm but the scale is not comparable. So in the DA world this taboo that surrounds blood magic has a practical purpose.
How many can resist temptation isn't the question, it just takes one. And I would venture to say those in the "school" of blood magic show by their studies that they feel it is their right to do, as they will, regardless of the harm they cause. They, themselves, are far more important than the average Joe around them, who are just a means to an end.
Now the mage who uses blood magic but is not in the school shows they are into short cuts, which shows a certain lack of character.
All in all, when you look at the potential harm surrounding blood and magic the existence of the Circle and the creation of the Templar order seem logical as well. Those who dabble in blood magic need to be watched, those who dive in are a danger, and both cannot be trusted to police themselves. Is the Circle perfect? No. Is it without faults? No, but it is better than nothing.
All and all Bioware has done great work with this topic and story line, just look at all the threads and the debate among us players. Good work Bioware.
Ieldra, you have done a lot of research on this. Do you think a distinction should be made between spells that are powered by blood, and spells that simply have it as an ingredient? I don't think there's any evidence that the mere presence of blood brings all the nasty side effects of blood magic. This might make the Joining and phylacteries not real blood magic, as presumably the lyrium in the Joining is there to power it.
Although, IIRC, when the Magisters breached the golden city, they murdered 200 slaves and used tons of lyrium as well, so perhaps even Maleficars find lyrium useful in blood magic spells.
There has already been some debate on that distinction. Both are - by Word of Gaider - blood magic. Which distinctions are plausible to make depends on how the different magical effects work. Also, which criteria should be used to make it? How does the knowledge how to do the Joining ritual or how to make phylacteries relate to powering spells by blood.
We don't know, but I think there is a body of knowledge you might call "the mystical properties of blood and life essence", which should be required for all those effects, maybe in different degrees or subdivided. Does one type require knowledge of the other? Is one built on the other? Really, we don't know.
@Solrest:
Until We Sleep was the one comic I don't know. Thanks for the info. So it appears that blood has some non-physical attributes beyond simply carrying life essence. It would be interesting to see if DAI will add any new lore about this.
@wcholcombe:
There is no evidence that demons can reach through the Veil. Every instance we witness, regardless of the involvement of blood magic, has the demons speaking while a mage touches the Fade, or through an actual Veil tear.
As I see it, the temptation to extend your source of power to others is the primary reason using blood magic as a power source presents a risk, not just because you're harming others but because it's plausible that you must reach through the Fade to touch others' life essence at a distance, and *then* you'll hear the demons speak. Which means it actually *is* safer if you restrict yourself to your own blood, for temptation there may be, but unlike a situation where you touch the Fade, either in order to cast a BM spell or to enact a blood sacrifice at a distance, that tempation lies only in yourself. There are no demons to enhance it, and there is no risk of possession. Using your own blood as a power source is not intrinsically more risky than any type of action that benefits you by harming others.
Also, we do know that you *always* hear demons speaking when you're touching the Fade. That's also in Last Flight. Only if you're not using BM while touching the Fade, it's usually not more than a distant whisper.
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