191 réponses à ce sujet

[Allan Schumacher]

This thread frustrates me -- people bought a party based, tactical combat game but they can't be bothered to actually employ tactics?

 

I'm frustrated because I represent the opposite extreme -- I only play on Nightmare, so I simply cannot wrap my head around people struggling on Easy/Normal; even though I've read every explanation in this thread...

 

The story alone isn't strong enough to carry this franchise on its shoulders -- it's the masterful combat plus the respectable story that separates Dragon Age from the other games sitting on the shelf.

 

I wish I could come to all of your homes for just 15 minutes -- I'd show you how this series works; then you could all enjoy the smug sense of self-satisfaction that comes from beating these games even when everything is stacked against you...oh yea and there's a story too.

 

It's okay for different people to want different things out of games, however.

 

For myself even Baldur's Gate 2 I preferred the game's narrative over its gameplay mechanics.  As such when something like Pillars of Eternity was announced, I was much more excited at something in the vein of Planescape: Torment (a game with poor combat gameplay) compared to something like Icewind Dale (which I consider the polar opposite)

[bazzag]

I used to die a bit on easy, and even now there are places that i detest (the forge master and the mage centric parts of the fade nightmare) but through experience i am prepared for them and don't die as often, if at all.

 

The last time i died was not my current playthrough, but the one before, and it was against the archdemon. I had really good health, good strength and all that good stuff and for some reason (to this day i have no idea why) my warden keeled over and snuffed it. 30 seconds into the fight. Full health then....dead. Well after that it didnt take long for morrigan and leliana to fall, and i had to rely on Alistair to find a phonebox and change into his leotard and cape. Which he did and managed to defeat old urthemiel by himself, which i was quite impressed with.

[CIA]

It's okay for different people to want different things out of games, however.

 

For myself even Baldur's Gate 2 I preferred the game's narrative over its gameplay mechanics.  As such when something like Pillars of Eternity was announced, I was much more excited at something in the vein of Planescape: Torment (a game with poor combat gameplay) compared to something like Icewind Dale (which I consider the polar opposite)

 

Most def. I feel that for games like Planescape their goal was to create that huge detailed universe and just give passable combat etc. to make it a video game.

 

That being said, I think it's a false dichotomy to say you can't have both a great narrative AND good gameplay mechanics.

[Allan Schumacher]

i was already worried about the difficult of the game after they announced how we won't regen health like we did before, and you'll have to gauge if you should keep questing/exploring the area or return back to skyhold. and that will be a factor in the game. this difficulty thing makes it sound like they are trying to make the game super hard.

 

In case it wasn't already mentioned, you won't need to return all the way back to Skyhold.  The Inquisition sets up camps throughout (driven by the player founding them) and you can heal and restock your potions there.  It's not really meant to be ultra punitive as say, Dark Souls, but it is looking to provide a degree of reward for playing well, as well as progression mechanics (improving your potions, in terms of effect and quantity).  It also feeds into gating content areas ("I barely won that fight, this area may be more than I am ready for at this time).

 

The most important thing for me though, is that as a gamer I appreciate that not every combat needs to be crafted in a way to wipe out the entire party.  With health regen a fight that doesn't threaten to wipe the party is fundamentally not an interesting fight mechanically.  If, however, there's a degree of attrition it means that even if the fight doesn't threaten to outright kill you, it still has some effect.  As a gamer I tend to prefer stuff like this.  It means that that desperate man you find that feels backed into a corner isn't done purely as a narrative thing but also a mechanical thing.  There's a minor reward for giving the fight some thought rather than just sleepwalking through it.

[nutcrackr]

For me, the amount of combat in DA:O was the key problem. When you could see another group of enemies a stones throw away from the current battle, the thought of taking extra time to complete every battle was too much to swallow. It was a linear corridor of fights, one 5 feet after the previous, with little difference between the enemies within. If DA:O had more evenly spread combat I might been happy to play on higher difficulties.

 

At least with Dragon Age 3 I might be able to see enemies from further away and possibly avoid many combat situations If I'm merely hunting for more story. So the actual world structure is already more appealing, I can finally pace the combat myself. People who love combat can seek trouble all across the land.

 

I will endeavour to play DA3 on normal for at least 5 hours and see how it is progressing.

[Allan Schumacher]

Most def. I feel that for games like Planescape their goal was to create that huge detailed universe and just give passable combat etc. to make it a video game.

 

That being said, I think it's a false dichotomy to say you can't have both a great narrative AND good gameplay mechanics.

 

They aren't mutually exclusive, no.  But it depends on the level of focus on the team and there are advantages to focusing your efforts on particular things.  Doing more isn't impossible, but tends to come with increased costs and potential conflicts (i.e. combat systems that may have inadvertent knock on effects on narrative systems and vice versa.  These may not be readily apparent until the systems are in place, as well).

 

So as with all things, it's a risk.  That said, a game that focuses on say, narrative, isn't even guaranteed to have a good narrative either.  Yes I'd love my games to have great everything that appeals to me perfectly, but certain aspects are more important to me than others.

[aTigerslunch]

Interesting read of Allan's post, definitely an insight to look forward to.

[CIA]

They aren't mutually exclusive, no.  But it depends on the level of focus on the team and there are advantages to focusing your efforts on particular things.  Doing more isn't impossible, but tends to come with increased costs and potential conflicts (i.e. combat systems that may have inadvertent knock on effects on narrative systems and vice versa.  These may not be readily apparent until the systems are in place, as well).

 

So as with all things, it's a risk.  That said, a game that focuses on say, narrative, isn't even guaranteed to have a good narrative either.  Yes I'd love my games to have great everything that appeals to me perfectly, but certain aspects are more important to me than others.

 

I'll take the game dev's word for it, hah. Yeah, it's certainly true that you can't achieve everything you want(a basic analogy being a deadline at college/uni), sometimes you gotta cut it down. That's why I was so drawn into the whole 'crowd funded' kickstarter thing at first - the idea that devs got funding from fans and had all the time in the world to just perfect their game sounded so good to me.

Wasteland 2 came out this week and while I haven't actually progressed that far in the story, the gameplay is really really fun and I've heard the story picks up later into the game.

 

By the way I thought Dragon Age: Origins had a good balance between story/gameplay.

[Allan Schumacher]

I'll take the game dev's word for it, hah. Yeah, it's certainly true that you can't achieve everything you want(a basic analogy being a deadline at college/uni), sometimes you gotta cut it down. That's why I was so drawn into the whole 'crowd funded' kickstarter thing at first - the idea that devs got funding from fans and had all the time in the world to just perfect their game sounded so good to me.

 

Well, as an easy to understand example assume narratively level design and writers made a cool plot point when they spot the player.  Combat design wanted to add stealth mechanics in because that was fun for combat.  But now you can skip the narrative segment since the player may never be spotted!  Whoops!  If it's recognized later in development, it's a more expensive fix.

 

Kickstarter is interesting because it grants opportunities for ideas that may be considered "too risky" in the realm of AAA.  Though it is important to note that they don't have all the time in the world.  The money isn't limitless by any means.

 

 

Wasteland 2 came out this week and while I haven't actually progressed that far in the story, the gameplay is really really fun and I've heard the story picks up later into the game.

Wasteland 2 is a very fun game and I'm enjoying it immensely.

[Ihatebadgames]

Witcher 2 had (to me) the best final boss fight. You did not have to do it. Need more fights like that.

[Allan Schumacher]

Witcher 2 had (to me) the best final boss fight. You did not have to do it. Need more fights like that.

 

This is a thing in both Planescape: Torment as well as Fallout (1 and 2 and FONV. I don't know about Fallout 3).  I actually prefer the non-combat resolutions to those games by a lot.  A lot a lot.

[CIA]

Witcher 2 had (to me) the best final boss fight. You did not have to do it. Need more fights like that.

 

I adore both Witcher games, but combat is not their strong suits. I did like the choice, though.

 

This is a thing in both Planescape: Torment as well as Fallout (1 and 2 and FONV. I don't know about Fallout 3).  I actually prefer the non-combat resolutions to those games by a lot.  A lot a lot.

No final boss in Fallout 3, you can convince something to blow itself up and convince another guy to run away though(no spoilers).

 

New Vegas' multiple endings were incredible. I loved Lanius' dialogue at the Dam, felt like all those points dumped into Speech finally paid off.

 

Also, was it Neverwinter Nights 2 or one of the expansions that you could defeat the final dragon boss by learning its name?

[DameGrace]

Also, was it Neverwinter Nights 2 or one of the expansions that you could defeat the final dragon boss by learning its name?

 

I think it was NWN: Hordes of the Underdark. _{It was satisfying to bring down Mephistopheles, the Devil with capital D, through sheer force of True Names.} 

[DameGrace]

This thread frustrates me -- people bought a party based, tactical combat game but they can't be bothered to actually employ tactics?

 

I'm frustrated because I represent the opposite extreme -- I only play on Nightmare, so I simply cannot wrap my head around people struggling on Easy/Normal; even though I've read every explanation in this thread...

 

The story alone isn't strong enough to carry this franchise on its shoulders -- it's the masterful combat plus the respectable story that separates Dragon Age from the other games sitting on the shelf.

 

I wish I could come to all of your homes for just 15 minutes -- I'd show you how this series works; then you could all enjoy the smug sense of self-satisfaction that comes from beating these games even when everything is stacked against you...oh yea and there's a story too.

 

I buy Bioware games because they have great stories, interesting characters, plot twists, and really talented voice actors. And I am not frustrated when people want hard difficulty levels to feel challenging. I want to have an option of enjoying story over combat. And no, I will not invite you to my home, even for 5 minutes. I don't need you to show me "how this series works". I know how it works. It works the way I want it. I want to enjoy the story - I play on easy mode. I want to enjoy combat - I play on nightmare. I have the smug sense of self-satisfaction when I win the Landsmeet. Or when I see Isabela return. These choices, these plot points - this respectable story - is what separates Dragon Age from other games sitting on my shelf. 

[Pommelhorse]

Boom! Sometimes you read a post that irks you and really want to come up with a brilliant retort to let them know how you really feel. Then someone like DameGrace comes along and does it 100 times better than you ever could.

 

Thanks DameGrace, that was eloquently said.

[Fearsome1]

It's confusing to me and there's nothing I can do about it.

 

Pretty much boiled the bulk of your comment down to the one line, which seems to sum it up best. I understand that you are genuinely curious as to how someone can botch an easy play through. But that is "easily" understandable, if a player has not previously spent much time gaming OR if they just have yet to figure out the mechanics of how things work. It takes as much time as it takes, and I'm willing to bet that more often than not, the learning curve isn't too protracted.

 

I will suggest that pondering the how's and the why's of a myriad of faceless players personal experiences in a fictional "game" setting is a true waste of one's grey cells!

[john-in-france]

Well not all of us are young players. Many of us have health issues that effect our hands...rheumatism, arthritis, carpal tunnel, Raynauds etc. We still enjoy playing but even on PC it is easy to faceplant/die when you can not feel your fingers or they are too stiff to move fast.

 

I found my best ally was the tactical setups for companions in DAO and DA2, setting up my people to actually do some of the work using the AI effectively really helped. I also found in DA2 the Templar skill tree and I became close friends...

 

I play on the easiest setting as I'm there for the story not arena style wave after wave.

 

Live and let live, you enjoy Nightmare? Good. I don't, please don't hate on those of us who prefer to play story based  and don't have your super reflexes.

[Celtic Latino]

The only time I really 'died' on easy/casual was the archdemon fight (I forgot to take out the generals and didn't know you could use the ballista). Then again, I was a city elf rogue and playing him as a fighter (didn't even know about backstabbing until much much later). Yeah.

[Magdalena11]

I don't think there are going to be any takers on the offer to give advice, OP, even though you do seem determined to give it anyway, in more than one thread.  People who want help generally go to strategy guides or threads that take actual abilities and combat mechanics into consideration, not just an opinion that combat is too easy unless it's done this certain way.

[Umbar]

I am a newbie gamer. I only really started gaming earlier this year. Before - way, way before - I used to play strategy games like Age of Empires and racing games like Need for Speed and I was at best middling at them both. When I started Dragon Age Origins, I had never played a party-based tactical combat game before. I didn't come to the game with any prior knowledge or experience. Also, the reason I was drawn to the game was the story - I am a roleplayer and I enjoy crafting stories and developing characters (personalities, not tactical builds) and making in-character decisions. That was the aspect that drew me to DA and other Bioware games.

 

So, I had two distinct disadvantages as far as proficiency at combat went. I had no experience in it and I had no interest in it. When I understood just how much micromanagement you have to do to keep your party viable and winning, I became intensely frustrated. I remember this one fight in Lothering where I died at least five times, in a matter of an hour or so. After that, I went, "You know, maybe this game isn't for me." and stopped playing it.

 

I only came back when promos for Inquisition started coming out and people started talking about it and about Origins and again, it was the story that drew me back. So I went online, asked for advice, got it and tried again. Slowly, I got better. What was I doing wrong before? Well, many things. I wasn't paying attention to my other party members. I wasn't paying attention to tactical maneuvering on the field. I had no clue about statistics and builds (I still don't). And I found combat tedious and boring and repetitive and just wanted it over with, so I wasn't being patient with it. Over time, I learned a little about all of them and I got better.

 

Mind you, we're talking Easy mode here, all the way. I still think Origins has way too much combat. Do we really need a darkspawn encounter every ten feet? I still find combat mostly dreary and a chore to slog through. But I got through it and to the parts that really interested me -  the parts where my Warden could make all those decisions and craft a story unique to her.

 

Now, I sort of get where the combat enthusiasts are coming from. Occasionally, I get the same thrill. Most recently, I beat the Queen of the Blackmarsh in Awakening with only my Rogue Warden, her Bear and Justice while she had more than 80% of her health. I thought I was dead for sure with my mage down. But I beat her and it was very satisfying. (Again, this was in Easy mode. Feel free to mock me.) I enjoy that once in a while. An entire game of 'challenging fights' is something I'll have nightmares about.

[Freedheart]

I feel for the OP and some of the others here...there is a good chance we will meet in MP, and I will indeed be the bane of your existence, as I spread my brand of suckage all over *your* game  *evilly chuckling as I rub my hands together*  (not really, though as I will never advance past the lowest level, and I'm okay with that.)

 

In all honesty, I acknowledge that I am awful at combat...try as I might, I have no strategic mind, or 'arena awareness'...probably a better phrase for this... I do look forward to trying out the tactical aspect, as I'm a console player and this was not available to me.  I play on Easy/Casual mode because I am comfortable with my suckage, and am not looking for an exercise in frustration.  I actually was able to play DA2 on Normal in fewer playthroughs than DAO. 

 

Currently, I'm playing Final Fantasy 14 online with some friends, and bless their hearts, they are trying to help me, and I am learning and getting better...I can assure you, if they ever ridiculed or mocked me, as has happened when I play in Duty Finder with strangers, the game would be a lot less enjoyable. 

 

The point I'm trying to make is this: we all paid our money for the game, and enjoy it in our own ways.  I don't feel the need to feel better than other gamers, I just want the most enjoyable gaming experience I can have.  For me, that is having an awesome RP experience while sucking - and laughing while doing so - at combat.  I don't know what is so hard to understand about that.

[Pommelhorse]

Umbar, have you tried DA2? The combat is vastly different to Origins. Some people hate it, but others enjoy the fast paced action over the slow tactics of Origins.

 

Each have their pros and cons, which is why I can't wait to try DA:I, looks to have the best of both worlds.

[veeia]

Playing a game on a harder difficulty requires more concentration and a larger time investment from me. I have a small child, ADHD, and a very busy life. Games that I replay a lot, I will eventually bump up the difficulty as I learn through playing...but for most games, I am content with an easier difficulty. 

 

For people who keep insisting that they just "can't get" how this happens..that's fine. You don't have to "get" it. Just respect that it happens and its a valid way of playing games.

[nightwolf667]

This thread frustrates me -- people bought a party based, tactical combat game but they can't be bothered to actually employ tactics?

 

I'm frustrated because I represent the opposite extreme -- I only play on Nightmare, so I simply cannot wrap my head around people struggling on Easy/Normal; even though I've read every explanation in this thread...

 

The story alone isn't strong enough to carry this franchise on its shoulders -- it's the masterful combat plus the respectable story that separates Dragon Age from the other games sitting on the shelf.

 

I wish I could come to all of your homes for just 15 minutes -- I'd show you how this series works; then you could all enjoy the smug sense of self-satisfaction that comes from beating these games even when everything is stacked against you...oh yea and there's a story too.

 

And I wouldn't let you into my house. The enjoyment I get from playing RPGs is the classics like Fallout, Planescape Torment, in the dialogue options, persuade twists, and mastering the plot points. You feel a smug sense of satisfaction when you beat the Archdemon on Nightmare. I feel a smug sense of satisfaction when I complete NWN2 and the only party member who betrays me is Qara (yes, I can talk Bishop into walking away). I feel a smug sense of satisfaction when I outplay Anora at the Landsmeet and set my Cousland up as Queen. I feel a sense of smug satisfaction when Sand compliments me for my high diplomacy score outtalking Torio at the Trial in Neverwinter Nights 2, when Shandra doesn't break, when Marcus turns up with the knife. I have a sense of satisfaction from bantering with Gann, from gaining +25 or more influence with him out of the gate. My class preference in NWN2 is playing a bard. Yes, a bard. I mean, it's certainly satisfying when my Red Dragon Disciple Bards face tank Thalopsyx ( ) but she's a level of challenge I prefer once in a blue moon and I don't think I'm alone when I peg her as the most difficult fight in the game. Convincing

Spoiler

Ammon Jerro

to open up to me was pretty much a NWN2 highlight as was taking Neeshka into his lair. In MOTB, sitting down and figuring out how to get a poor idiot released from his demon deal is still a highlight for me. There was no combat involved, no skill checks involved, just reading and patience.

 

Realizing I could mostly max or completely max Fenris's influence score in Act 1 without turning on mages was more satisfactory than downing any boss. Gaining enough influence with the Arishok for him to suggest a duel always gives me a little thrill, duelling for Isabella when she's my romance and I'm playing a warrior leads to a mental happy dance. Finally figuring Sten out after three playthroughs and not having to buy his love with gifts was... Hell, I get satisfied just playing through Witch Hunt as a male Dalish who romanced Morrigan. (Thematic tinglies.)

 

I don't need to play my game your way in order to get a better experience out of it. More importantly, I don't want to play my game your way. Especially not if you can't even wrap your head around the idea of finding value in mine. There are a great many ways to feel like a badass in a roleplaying game, killing monsters on hard is just one of them.   

[zqrahll]

Well, I tend to play on the lower difficulties in this series as the combat is much less interesting to me than many other aspects.  That being said, the only time I ever died in a Dragon Age game was playing a non-imported character on hard going up against the Harvester in Golems (trying for the reward). 

 

The talk about making healing much more of a pain in the butt sounds awful to me.   I am not interested in playing a Dragon Age game for the challenge, I will be playing for immersion, characters, story, etc.

 

However, I have played a lot of ME3 MP and am good enough to have gotten Best of the Best-- but I have no interest in playing DA MP.  Most fantasy games just don't do fun combat as far as I'm concerned.  It's the reason I have always been underwhelmed by the Elder Scrolls games, Skyrim's combat is awful.  The only fun fantasy gameplay I've seen in this generation was in Amalur, and of course the company went immediately belly up.