223 réponses à ce sujet

[leaguer of one]

After you meet Marjolaine , I seriously consider putting the whole Dark side Leliana on her . I mean , she was obsessed and parano that Leliana will get back at her . So it would be easy to assume , she fed Leliana alot of crap and turned the whole bardic thing into a games and those they assassinate into 'not so innocent' . And you know , when you are blind by love or want the someone you respect to notice your worth...you can do anything for them . Anything . 

 

I wouldn't compare Morith to Marjolaine . Cose of the whole 'Ardat-Yakshi' thing . We don't know , if Morinth already had a sociopathic tendancie that got enhanced by the defect or it grow once she started killing . Or she has it more prnounced then her sister (notice the 2 others weren't sociopath , was it abstinance that do that?) . Marjolaine was sociopathic , nut case , narcissique , parano...controle freak and a liar..and alot of other stuff . 

 

As for the rest , the same as above apply . Miranda had a screw up crazy dad , Jack got tortured , Garrus was young and rash , Liara lost her mother and was forced to stand there and watch her get killed , 

I think anyone who is put in certain circumstance can turn dark side with the right poking and probing . The real thing is : They aren't really your....evil evil . You know . Unless you throw the word evil at the smallest infraction..

But in my book , haven't seen (in game that is) the real evil evil dude Satan like that wanna eat your soul and bring doom upon the world without ulterior motives beside that its fun . In games , I saw it elsewhere in mangas and maybe books...but have yet to see it in games . 

 

Funny you didn't mention : irenicus , Bodhie , Anomen ....and lot of others peeps . Like that dwarf that join you..completely crazy . Or Edwin Oddeiserron . 

But I don't want those evil evil guy. I want them to have a motivation and conflict. I just  finish watching Tokyo Ghoul( a fantastic anime, watch it.) and one of the main bad guy was horrific sadistic monster (full on chaotically Evil)and even he had a reason why the way he was(won't say what they are because "spoilers").

[AlexiaRevan]

That's your right , but the Topic was clearly about the evil evil guy which so far we havent gotten not one . Well unless Harkin join your group 

My point was the squad mentioned in my previous post...were 'evil' by circumstances . While I considere someone evil...when he is evil just cose..not some childhood trauma or brainwashing or cose he like shinie stuff . But really from hell to earth lost brother of the Devil kinda of evil....we didn't have . 

Quara (I think that was her name) was a good evil evil . She didn't care about anyone , no remorse.....and she die squached 

I don't like evil guys cose they are rarely well made and aren't true evil . I will still hate them and they will still warm the bench when I'm playing , so no worrie 

[TheGusWho]

He's also got it wrong on Lelianna and Sten being evil. The former was a murderer in the past but whines if you murder anybody during Origins and the later abides by a strict sense of principles and a code of honour, condemning you if you strike down unarmed people, he is also remorseful for killing the family (which happened because he went berserk and loss sense, not because he rejoices in bloodshed).

 

So Leliana is just a whiner but Sten "abides by a strict sense of principles and a code of honour"? Okay, sure.

[TheEternalStudent]

That's your right , but the Topic was clearly about the evil evil guy which so far we havent gotten not one . Well unless Harkin join your group 

My point was the squad mentioned in my previous post...were 'evil' by circumstances . While I considere someone evil...when he is evil just cose..not some childhood trauma or brainwashing or cose he like shinie stuff . But really from hell to earth lost brother of the Devil kinda of evil....we didn't have . 

Quara (I think that was her name) was a good evil evil . She didn't care about anyone , no remorse.....and she die squached 

I don't like evil guys cose they are rarely well made and aren't true evil . I will still hate them and they will still warm the bench when I'm playing , so no worrie 

Evil for evil's sake manages to make Superman a dynamically interesting character by comparison. Sacrificing people because, hey, that's what evil people do is uninteresting, sacrificing people for an actual reason is interesting, to various levels. I have characters that would do that so they could loot the bodies, because there's a blight on, that's the priority, or because they're humans.
To go to the most extreme example, Satan says 'Better to rule in Hell, than serve in Heaven'. That's a motivation beyond that of evil is fun. Playing someone who would kick a puppy because that's what puppies are for only has that one aspect.

[Celtic Latino]

After you meet Marjolaine , I seriously consider putting the whole Dark side Leliana on her . I mean , she was obsessed and parano that Leliana will get back at her . So it would be easy to assume , she fed Leliana alot of crap and turned the whole bardic thing into a games and those they assassinate into 'not so innocent' . And you know , when you are blind by love or want the someone you respect to notice your worth...you can do anything for them . Anything . 

 

I wouldn't compare Morith to Marjolaine . Cose of the whole 'Ardat-Yakshi' thing . We don't know , if Morinth already had a sociopathic tendancie that got enhanced by the defect or it grow once she started killing . Or she has it more prnounced then her sister (notice the 2 others weren't sociopath , was it abstinance that do that?) . Marjolaine was sociopathic , nut case , narcissique , parano...controle freak and a liar..and alot of other stuff . 

 

As for the rest , the same as above apply . Miranda had a screw up crazy dad , Jack got tortured , Garrus was young and rash , Liara lost her mother and was forced to stand there and watch her get killed , 

I think anyone who is put in certain circumstance can turn dark side with the right poking and probing . The real thing is : They aren't really your....evil evil . You know . Unless you throw the word evil at the smallest infraction..

But in my book , haven't seen (in game that is) the real evil evil dude Satan like that wanna eat your soul and bring doom upon the world without ulterior motives beside that its fun . In games , I saw it elsewhere in mangas and maybe books...but have yet to see it in games . 

 

Funny you didn't mention : irenicus , Bodhie , Anomen ....and lot of others peeps . Like that dwarf that join you..completely crazy . Or Edwin Oddeiserron . 

 

01. Not blaming Leliana at all for hunting down Marjolaine, believe me. She was definitely a monster. I do see your point regarding on how Leliana could have been blinded by love, plus her whole upbringing in the Orlesian courts.

 

02. I wouldn't compare Morinth to Marjolaine as being the same, but I would consider them both on the sociopathic spectrum, just in different ways. With Morinth it is more of a deep impulse, she can't control her violent tendencies. However, it doesn't change the fact that she uses her intelligence and manipulates to satisfy her desires. It isn't like the other Ardat-Yakshi where she goes to a monastery to overcome her tendencies (like her sister) but revels in them at the cost and expense of others. She 'hunted' for centuries and is an expert at her craft by not getting caught or killed. And even if its an impulse she can't help, it's certainly not like she feels remorse for it either.

 

As for Marjolaine, she would be considered a high-functioning or intelligent sociopath (which we both agree on), where with her its all about staying on top and achieving power, using others and disposing of them when they are a threat (such as Leliana going against Marjolaine's orders by reading the letter).

 

03. All characters have a dark side or motivations to their tendencies. Even said above characters. We don't know what Marjolaine experienced during her own upbringing and with Morinth it was biological.

 

As I've said before, I don't equate renegade with evil or any of the characters I mentioned (Garrus, Liara, Leliana, Miranda) as evil. Garrus and Liara are clearly 'good', Leliana seems to align more towards 'good' while Miranda strikes me more as neutral (not evil but not necessarily altruistic either). Neutral is not evil. 

 

04. And yes, the other characters I neglected to mention, that's mainly because I need a refresher on Baldur's Gate and am more familiar with the DA and Mass Effect games. D & D (which Baldurs Gate is in) has more of a polarized black and white morality (clearly designated good and evil) while DA and Mass Effect its more shades of grey. You can be a paragon and just be trying to achieve the benefits or saving face while you can be renegade either because of past hurts or because you really believe you're doing the right thing.

[Wulfram]

I'm sure DA:I will let the player (literally) get away with murder, and allow you to gratuitously insult powerful and important people without consequence, as per usual.

[AlexiaRevan]

 

Evil for evil's sake manages to make Superman a dynamically interesting character by comparison. Sacrificing people because, hey, that's what evil people do is uninteresting, 

Hum..it is a matter of taste in the end and a matter of context as well . What many peoples may find 'Bad ass' can just be 'utterly boring' to me . And Vice Versa . 

 

As for the evil evil I mentioned , I didn't say that's what I wanted . I used it in comparaison to what we had . Everyone that was called or labeled 'Evil' wasn't your no-redemption-ever kinda of evil . So in this case , a Satan kinda of charachter would fit the bill . because you can't redeem him . (And peoples will try always) . 

Now about the boring part that you said , again...it was merely a profile . Didn't say an evil had to be like that..or like this . The writer in the end will expand on an evil charachter and give him a life and a background and colors....

In the end , is what make him evil ? was he born evil ? did he have a traumatic childhood ? was he taught to be evil ? Can he become good..ever ? That is what define evil from good , at least for me . 

[TheEternalStudent]

Hum..it is a matter of taste in the end and a matter of context as well . What many peoples may find 'Bad ass' can just be 'utterly boring' to me . And Vice Versa . 

 

As for the evil evil I mentioned , I didn't say that's what I wanted . I used it in comparaison to what we had . Everyone that was called or labeled 'Evil' wasn't your no-redemption-ever kinda of evil . So in this case , a Satan kinda of charachter would fit the bill . because you can't redeem him . (And peoples will try always) . 

Now about the boring part that you said , again...it was merely a profile . Didn't say an evil had to be like that..or like this . The writer in the end will expand on an evil charachter and give him a life and a background and colors....

In the end , is what make him evil ? was he born evil ? did he have a traumatic childhood ? was he taught to be evil ? Can he become good..ever ? That is what define evil from good , at least for me . 

 

That's your right , but the Topic was clearly about the evil evil guy which so far we havent gotten not one . Well unless Harkin join your group 

My point was the squad mentioned in my previous post...were 'evil' by circumstances . While I considere someone evil...when he is evil just cose..not some childhood trauma or brainwashing or cose he like shinie stuff . But really from hell to earth lost brother of the Devil kinda of evil....we didn't have . 

Quara (I think that was her name) was a good evil evil . She didn't care about anyone , no remorse.....and she die squached 

I don't like evil guys cose they are rarely well made and aren't true evil . I will still hate them and they will still warm the bench when I'm playing , so no worrie 

I'm saying there's no value to a pure evil character. One who would solve every problem with 'eviserate them' A totally self-obsesesed Ayn Randian narcistic **** would still help people if they'll gain something from it. But in order to be pure evil 100% of the time you can't have a motivation aside from doing evil. Which means no character, there can't be nuance, or ambiguity, unless they have to choose between boiling someone in oil or being buried alive.
Give a motivation, another set of guidelines and they're no longer pure evil. Bacstory exists to flesh out characters, to explain them. and thier quirks. Evil doesn't have quirks, it's bland without anything else.
You say Satan can't be redeemed, but that's the point. He could. It's the tragedy, that he brought this all upon himself and could end it if he let his pride aside, but this is his flaw.
Every great villain has the capacity for great heroism, but it is corrupted. Pure evil has no potential for heroism, and lacks that interest.

[HiroVoid]

Dragon Age has generally seemed to be better at this than Dragon Age Origins.

[AlexiaRevan]

 

I'm saying there's no value to a pure evil character

Again that's your opinion . Not mine . You may not find value in such a being , maybe I do . Why would it lose interest to ME if you don't like it ? It doesn't . You may value it as a worthless vilain , not interesting , utterly boring and predictable . But if I care..is all that matter . 

As for Evil evil....well the closest so far I have found , would be an evil guy in a Manga called Orochimaru . Or if you want a kill-the-world-cose-its-fun the  check out Boo ! 

[The Night Haunter]

Again that's your opinion . Not mine . You may not find value in such a being , maybe I do . Why would it lose interest to ME if you don't like it ? It doesn't . You may value it as a worthless vilain , not interesting , utterly boring and predictable . But if I care..is all that matter . 

As for Evil evil....well the closest so far I have found , would be an evil guy in a Manga called Orochimaru . Or if you want a kill-the-world-cose-its-fun the  check out Boo ! 

The last truly evil PC was Dark Side Protag  in KotOR. ME you can't do evil at all, DA you can be a total douche who doesn't care about anyone else, but I'd hesitate to call him/her truly evil.

So I'd dim your hopes for an evil Inquisitor.

[TheEternalStudent]

Again that's your opinion . Not mine . You may not find value in such a being , maybe I do . Why would it lose interest to ME if you don't like it ? It doesn't . You may value it as a worthless vilain , not interesting , utterly boring and predictable . But if I care..is all that matter . 

As for Evil evil....well the closest so far I have found , would be an evil guy in a Manga called Orochimaru . Or if you want a kill-the-world-cose-its-fun the  check out Boo ! 

Both of these characters have motivations, reasons for behaving in certain ways, they use evil, because it furthers thier ends. nrathen than being subsurvient to it, engaging in any action provided it is vile. They have no empathy, but can assist others to further thier own agendasOrochimaru trains Sasuke because it will help him.Buu doesn't display any positive traits because he appears in DBZ, where the only reason for his existence is for Goku to fight someone stronger than the last person he fought.

 

Edit: Also both characters show that potential for heroish, Good Buu fighting Evil Buu and young Orochimaru being conscideed a hero

Modifié par TheEternalStudent, 23 septembre 2014 - 06:54 .

[AlexiaRevan]

Kotor....as in Kotor 1 ? Malak never came out as evil..more like wannabe evil . If you want to go there , I say Sion +Nihilus+Darth Traya all 3 tripple the evil for Malak and leave him eating dust . 

 

 

So I'd dim your hopes for an evil Inquisitor.

 well you really can't . Since I do not care to have one , I'm merely pointing out that so far , we haven't seen one in the previous games like Mass effect or Dragon Age . (well unless you count Howe) . Just that..

[DV-01]

I'm sure DA:I will let the player (literally) get away with murder, and allow you to gratuitously insult powerful and important people without consequence, as per usual.

 

Be fun if there were heavy consequences to that.. but never, ever take away my humor conversation choice in the face of pomposity;) It would be refreshing to have choices that end in near no wins, disfigurement, emprisonment.. the end. instead of always finding a way around something with all branches all the time..  Feels like choices don't matter when you succeed with similar outcomes no matter what path you take.

[leaguer of one]

ME you can't do evil at all.

......You can ruthlessly shot Legion to death over and over again.... You can be evil.

[leaguer of one]

I dunno. Most of the folks in DA2 were pretty renegade. 

 

Merrill - Naive, undisciplined blood mage. 

 

Fenris - an example of Faust, having sold his sold to the devil for a powerful boon. In addition to the Faustian overtones, he is bigoted and negative.

 

Anders - Serves his own agenda. Abandoned wardens/cowardly. Extremist. Manipulative/Lies to Hawke. If Hawke questions him, he does the, "Are we friends/in love or not?" mind game.

 

Isabela - Selfish. Liar. Materialistic. Sexually objectifies people.

 

Sebastian - Vengeful. Self righteous but hypocritical. Racist against elves. 

 

Carver - plagued with jealousy. bigoted against mages. 

 

Varric - in it to win it, especially if there's money involved (materialistic). Does not like to take unnecessary risks. 

 

The only overly diplomatic "good guy" in shiny armour that I can think of is Aveline. And don't get me wrong. These criticisms of the companions doesn't mean I don't love each and every one of them. OH... I love em all.

Aveline can never admit to being wrong, her biggest flaw.

[Revan Reborn]

But there's more to it than that. There are certainly better ways to deal with mentally ill people than killing them, even if they're serial killers. The issue is that if you don't kill Kelder you might as well have been the murderer who killed all of his future victims. Because Hawke and his companions knew that if they didn't stop Kelder, then nobody would.

I understand this. What I'm arguing is this to a certain extent was bad storytelling because it's a catch 22. Either way someone dies, whether it be the mentally-ill serial killer or the potentially new victim that comes along later. It's all purely hypothetical as you don't really know what will happen in the future. I just believe the decisions given to us to handle the situation were silly.

[leaguer of one]

Which is a very petty flaw compared to most everyone else's. You know? I mean... not admitting to being wrong vs. blowing up a chantry - lol!! 

 

 

Think about it this way....Loghain has the same flaw.

[leaguer of one]

I understand this. What I'm arguing is this to a certain extent was bad storytelling because it's a catch 22. Either way someone dies, whether it be the mentally-ill serial killer or the potentially new victim that comes along later. It's all purely hypothetical as you don't really know what will happen in the future. I just believe the decisions given to us to handle the situation were silly.

Dude, it's no different for choosing to save Kaiden or Ashley. The the entire point was to be hypothetical. You deciding what happen does not make is silly, heck the guy you are killing even ask you to do it.

[leaguer of one]

But he exercised it differently, leading to the deaths of innocent people who trusted him. You can have similar flaws but exercise said flaws in ways that differentiate you from other personality types.

 

Like for example, two people can be prone to anger quickly. When person A gets angry, he furiously plays guitar. When person B gets angry, she screams at/hits her children. Both have the same flaw, but exercise said flaws differently. It doesn't make them the same person.

True, but my point is that the flaws can still be hazardous so it's nothing to sneeze at, not that she just like Loghain. Not being able to say your wrong can be a huge flaw.