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Where's the character that's supposed to anger players?


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#176
Ryzaki

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Isn't one of the most common complaints about her that she made their character look bad?

 

Is not wanting your PC and companions to look like fools really female jealousy though?

 

 

Poor Tallis. She was loved just a little too much, and like a spoiled child, she found acceptance outside her loving family circle was not as easy as it would have been with more realistic expectations.

 

I've learned a lot about Tallis since MotA came out, and what I've learned has softened a vitriolic and intense dislike to merely a reaction against poor execution. Her biggest enemy turned out to be her writers. Felicia Day did not write Tallis, nor did she design her. According to Matt Rhodes, she was there from the initial design stages, perhaps even earlier than Merrill or Anders. As a character concept, she may have predated Redemption rather than the other way around.

 

As a concept, she's pretty cool. We don't get a chance to interact with too many elves who find refuge in the Qun, so that's kinda nifty... but the character development started at the end instead of the beginning. In other words, it made too many assumptions. It assumed that everyone would automatically be in love with her from the word go, so she came in at her end-stage cockiness and just assumed that the player would buy it about a character he or she had never met. Her entrance is similar to Varric's and Isabela where she displays her competence and flair right from the outset. Nothing too out of the ordinary there, all of the characters are shown at their best in their intros... except that Tallis's took it too far. In Varric's the first thing he does after shooting the thief and restoring Hawke's worldly goods is declare "You're the boss!" and he  keeps that up throughout the entirety of their relationship. Isabela goes a bit further with the forced flirting from Hawke (which might be out of character, depending), and for a long time, that rankled and I had a hard time learning to love Isabela (but I eventually did, and very much so). But even then, the fight was her own, and she was the object of the attack. She didn't ride in guns ablazing and save a suddenly inept Hawke from getting his or her backside handed to him or her while Hawke stood around mouth breathing. I'm sorry, but you really have to earn that kind of a cutscene, and Tallis hadn't. Heck, even in Captured!, the one time in DAO when the protagonist was truly helpless, the player has the choice of handling things him or herself or sitting back and waiting for a rescue. And if they're good enough to beat Ser Cauthrien, the whole thing can be avoided. Tallis takes away that player agency, and we're forced to sit there and watch while our characters are turned into simpletons. That doesn't leave a good impression.

 

And it doesn't get better from there. Throughout the entire DLC, no opportunity is overlooked to diminish the skills and abilities of Hawke and his or her followers to make Tallis look good. She's better informed about Kirkwall's underworld than Varric; she's better at both potions and compassion than Anders, the party healer; she knows more about intrigue than Leliana; she's more universally desired than Isabela; she speaks better Tevene than Fenris, and pokes fun at him for his accent when speaking qunlat. The only thing she doesn't do is rip Carver's greatsword off his back and slaughter Baron Arlange's forces singlehandedly (I have to babysit her constantly so she doesn't die constantly as it is). I get it. She's supposed to be badass. But they didn't have to try that hard, nor did they have to make the players' longtime friends and allies look like morons in the process. She could have at least acknowledged their competence, which she never does. Again, you have to earn that kind of a spotlight, and Tallis never did. It was just assumed that the player would love her enough to overlook the deliberate belittlement of Hawke's friends and allies. And that doesn't even begin to touch upon the business with the lock.

 

One of the reasons people love Captured! is the funny banter while the Warden's allies try to free him or her, and yeah, they got that part down. But it's important to note that the Warden (and Alistair) can get out of the cell on their own, and during the course of the rescue, the Warden's companions (who the Warden has grown to know and love throughout the entire game) are allowed to show their competence along the way. In MotA, the banter is there, but both Hawke and his or her companions are once again made to look like idiots for Tallis's benefit. Even though Hawke may well be better at picking locks than Tallis. Once again, that kind of spotlight has to be earned, and the player has known Tallis for about an hour at that point, and it doesn't sit well.

 

But Inquisition isn't DA2, and we don't know in what capacity Tallis will appear, if she appears at all. It's possible that she'll be an adversary, in which case all of her previous detractions become assets. There's a certain satisfaction to beating a skilled opponent, so that might cast Tallis in a better light. Or, if she does wind up being a temporary companion at some point, there's the chance that the writers may have learned that most people don't like being side-kicks in their own story. They don't like it when people make fun of their friends, people who have already established themselves in the protagonist's affection. They may allow her to shine as a gem among many without making her look like a plastic rhinestone with a platinum setting. A sky with only one star isn't much of a vista.

 

So I'd say it wasn't Tallis herself that was the problem, it was the execution.

 

Really summons a lot of my issues with Tallis.

 

It's not merely her being better than the protagonist. But it's to such an obnoxious degree and the player loses agency that it's a complete turn off. It's that smell of desperation that goes "LIKE THIS CHARACTER. SHE'S SO BADASS! AND UNIQUE!" 

 

The fact that you can't point out her obvious logic fails made it so much worse.



#177
Guest_TheDarkKnightReturns_*

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Hawke.


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#178
MerchantGOL

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If Anders returns like "this is the remix. I'm back ****es" I will be so pissed off

It's Hard to come back from a murder knife in his heart

 

Treacherous emo bastard



#179
Neverwinter_Knight77

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It's Hard to come back from a murder knife in his heart

Treacherous emo bastard

You can be decapitated, burned alive, shot by a .44 magnum... but no death is more final than that of the murder knife. The murder knife is eternal.

#180
Warden Commander Aeducan

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You can be decapitated, burned alive, shot by a .44 magnum... but no death is more final than that of the murder knife. The murder knife is eternal.

No matter how much pain you can inflict on Anders. Justice will be back and it'll be like Kristoff 2.0.



#181
Neverwinter_Knight77

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Prettier and overall just plain better than them.

I still have a hard time understanding Cullen's appeal. He obviously believes that mages are less than human, and beneath "normal people". And then when I saw his DA:O epilogue slide about going nuts in the tower, that sealed the deal.

#182
SmilesJA

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I lol'd. And her actress is awful. 

 

I think Felicia Day was good, I don't really care if you laugh. I really liked Tallis if I'm the only one liked her so be it.



#183
Warden Commander Aeducan

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I still have a hard time understanding Cullen's appeal. He obviously believes that mages are less than human, and beneath "normal people". And then when I saw his DA:O epilogue slide about going nuts in the tower, that sealed the deal.

 

2:15 Onward to 3:35

I don't really know what to make of Cullen because in this scene he is far more levelheaded and sensible, and it seems to contradict to what happens to DA: O epilogue.


 

Cullen's inner struggle.



#184
Killdren88

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I still have a hard time understanding Cullen's appeal. He obviously believes that mages are less than human, and beneath "normal people". And then when I saw his DA:O epilogue slide about going nuts in the tower, that sealed the deal.

 

He had a crush on the Female Mage PC and his shyness got all the ladies swooning.. That is quite literally the only reason for he continued existence in the games. The writers will deny it of course, but they know a cash cow when they see one.


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#185
Warden Commander Aeducan

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He had a crush on the Female Mage PC. That is quite literally the only reason for he continued existence in the games. The writers will deny it of course, but they know a cash cow when they see one.

Fandom has won over the dev again?



#186
Killdren88

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Fandom has won over the dev again?

 

That is the only reason why I see Cullen making it to three games.



#187
sunnydxmen

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It's Hard to come back from a murder knife in his heart

 

Treacherous emo bastard

 

they brought leliana back i really want anders to come back to see the haters rage in tears,  he should back like this like thank you for killing me cause i have gained more power now that im a pride demon did  you honestly think you saw the last of me ha ha ha think again.



#188
Riverdaleswhiteflash

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they brought leliana back i really want anders to come back to see the haters rage in tears,  he should back like this like thank you for killing me cause i have gained more power now that im a pride demon did  you honestly think you saw the last of me ha ha ha think again.

The devs are apparently considering bringing Justice back if you killed Anders. A dead Anders, however, is a dead Anders.



#189
The Elder King

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He had a crush on the Female Mage PC and his shyness got all the ladies swooning.. That is quite literally the only reason for he continued existence in the games. The writers will deny it of course, but they know a cash cow when they see one.


You do know That there's a good number of Cullen fans that didn't like/care About him in Origins, right? If They wanted to use him as a cash cow, Why they didn't make him romanceable from the start, or ungated in race and gender?
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#190
pengwin21

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I still have a hard time understanding Cullen's appeal. He obviously believes that mages are less than human, and beneath "normal people". And then when I saw his DA:O epilogue slide about going nuts in the tower, that sealed the deal.

 

DA:O's epilogue slides with regards to Cullen aren't canon. He always goes to Kirkwall to become Knight-Captain there following the events at the Circle Tower. He does not become Knight-Commander of Fereldan's tower or go on a killing spree.

 

I find Cullen interesting because he's very sympathetic to mages at first and then Uldred and co.'s actions cause him to become very anti-mage. He moves more towards the middle during his time in Kirkwall, seeing that Templars like Meredith can also be prone to corruption. It's a pretty big character arc for someone who's not a companion.



#191
Zakhar

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I'm really confused why Cole's murders are brought up like it's unique... the whole lot of you are murderers in these games.

Every companion you have is a murderer. What's the difference? That Cole's was actually mentioned directly?

#192
Riverdaleswhiteflash

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I'm really confused why Cole's murders are brought up like it's unique... the whole lot of you are murderers in these games.

Every companion you have is a murderer. What's the difference? That Cole's was actually mentioned directly?

I'm not sure Cassandra did any murdering. Killing maybe, but killing and murder are not the same thing. (I was about to mention Vivienne, but then I remembered she's part of the Orlesian court. Self-defense isn't murder, but being in that environment might require actual murder.)



#193
Zakhar

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I'm not sure Cassandra did any murdering. Killing maybe, but killing and murder are not the same thing. (I was about to mention Vivienne, but then I remembered she's part of the Orlesian court. Self-defense isn't murder, but being in that environment might require actual murder.)


Depends on how someone sees the word "murder". A soldier doing his job could be seen as a murderer but I'd rather not get into that beyond an example.

Leliana we know killed as a bard, was that murder? Probably. Iron Bull probably has done plenty of murders and Sera I'm sure has murdered -someone-.

She is part of a criminal band, no matter how Robin Hood they can try to be.

#194
Lady Shayna

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I find Cullen interesting because he's very sympathetic to mages at first and then Uldred and co.'s actions cause him to become very anti-mage. He moves more towards the middle during his time in Kirkwall, seeing that Templars like Meredith can also be prone to corruption. It's a pretty big character arc for someone who's not a companion.


This is why I really like the character as well. I was not one who connected with him in the Mage origin, and though I have no issues with those who did, it's not the end all and be all of why he's popular. I look forward to interacting with him, and exploring his take on all if these events as well as his views on where he is in his life now.

As for the subject of the thread, I imagine that whichever character they referring to, it's vastly more likely that something this character will DO is what they believe will anger players rather than who they are. As this thread demonstrates, we as players have too diverse a set of opinions to reliably be angered by mere temperament. Heh.