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Let's talk Melee Combat


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#1
JAZZ_LEG3ND

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Introduction

Little about me: I love the Mass Effect series, and while I’ll always cherish and look forward to the story content of the games, the combat in Mass Effect 3 was a revelation. I’ve spent many hundreds of hours in the cooperative multiplayer mode. The symmetry of all the classes and powers is brilliant.

 

Now, I understand that focusing on combat is somewhat a point of contention for the community here, but towards which what I just said eludes, I am a big fan of the Mass Effect combat. I think this series was developed under the notion of being an amazing role playing game, and also a brilliant tactical action game. I completely understand if you don’t agree with me, I only ask that you show me the same courtesy.

 

So, back to it. Something that has always stood out to me—me being a universal melee nut—in Mass Effect, the melee is disconnected to the powers and weapons. There is no systemic link between, say, a biotic punch and a target primed with Warp; the power effect logic used by typical tech and biotic powers suggests this should yield some sort of detonation.

 

That said, what I’m suggesting is a bit more comprehensive than just detonations.

 

 

Customizations

I don’t want to explicitly list a set of customizations that I’ve thought up, because that would take much to long, instead I’d rather just suggest the class philosophy be a guide for such a system.

 

In Mass Effect 3 Multiplayer, the Engineers and Infiltrators had some of the most elaborate and often interesting melee attacks. The Shadow’s sword was an easy favourite, as was the Demolisher’s Falcon Punch. Soldiers and Vanguards tend to rely on their strength to put an enemy down, the Human Vanguard’s Biotic Strike was an instant win.

 

Engineer options would be governed by the notion of creativity; Infiltrators are stealth, a space ninjatō needs to be a thing there; Sentinels are tech and biotic, left omni-blade slash could set enemy ablaze, the follow-up stab from the right could be charged with biotic energy and give the enemy flight with a detonation, or simply make him explode.

 

 

Melee leveling

I think melee strength should level within its own tree; “Fitness” was a paradox. This way your levelling choices within this tree only effect your melee, and each class could have unique choices.

 

For example, Soldiers could choose between Force and Peirce Damage, one dealing more damage to armour, the other knocking unshielded enemies to the ground.

 

 

Combo Strikes

To further connect your melee to the other systems, enemies who are put in a staggered state become vulnerable to very powerful, class unique, melee attacks. This idea was inspired by the melee system used in Resident Evil 4 and 5—more 5, since it was more advanced. And like that system, it would be cool to stagger enemies with critical hits.

 

So, landing consecutive hits (or one powerful one—Sniper Rifle) on an enemy’s knees, face, or back; or landing a Warp, Incinerate, Overload, etc. on an enemy, would put that enemy into a “staggered state”, at which point the player can initiate a very powerful melee attack.

 

In case you’re unfamiliar with Resident Evil 5, and aren’t following what I’m on about, here’s a video demonstrating how the system worked. Now do remember, I am not talking about the animations, even though I think Resident Evil had very nice animations, I am talking about the mechanics only.

 

In Resident Evil, you need only hit an enemy in the face or leg once to stagger them, but Mass Effect is a different kind of game, your weapon, your ammo, the enemy archetype; does the enemy have kinetic barriers? All these things would be considered by the game, so pulling of consistent staggers would require you to become familiar with all the variables.

 

Also, low enemy health leads me to my next topic.

 

 

Executions

The infamous sync kills. I think we’ve all moonwalked into a facepalm. But, the player has had a sync kill of his/her own. The Abduction Kill over cover. A spot of genius there, and they all look very cool. Also gave you invulnerability; nice reward for a bit of patience and good timing.

 

Since the player can monitor enemy health in Mass Effect, being able to outright execute enemies at low health with a melee takedown would be a very sweet inclusion. The idea is that instead of your typical Heavy Melee, these executions would benefit from the Abduction Kill perks—you become invulnerable for the moment the animation is playing, and even allow you to look around, take a breath and plan your next move.

 

In both Singleplayer and Cooperative play, this would be a very nice addition. Setting up an Execution move via squad commands—get your squaddie to chip health off an enemy near you—or simply calling out to your coop partner to drop the hammer on that other baddie, would let you recover Barriers without pausing from the fight.

 

Execution moves would of course take precedence over the aforementioned Combo Strikes if the subject enemy’s health is within the Execute threshold. And really, the notion of the Execute is you being a badass, so very cool and class unique animations would be the name of the game here.

 

edit: A game I'm quite fond of that has some very cool canned takedowns is Splinter Cell Conviction: Takedown Monatage. Obviously Mass Effect hardsuits wouldn't allow many of these, but thinking in terms of the methods: very efficient, brutal and hands-on, using your weapon as a weapon sort of thing. If you know of anything more fitting for Mass Effect, bring it on. I considered Halo Reach, but while cool, tends to be too jumpy and knifey.

 

 

Well that was a mouthful.

Let me know what you think.


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#2
Oni Changas

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Well thought out and stated. I like this idea. It has depth and allows more dynamic and agency gameplay.
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#3
JAZZ_LEG3ND

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Well thought out and stated. I like this idea. It has depth and allows more dynamic and agency gameplay.

Thanks.

Like I said, I am a melee nut, so... I think about these sorts of things a lot. :lol:


On the topic, Splinter Cell Blacklist had very nice abduction animations.
Kristjan Zadziuk [animator] and Kevin Secours [defensive tactics instructor] did phenomenal work on that game.

Now, obviously, these aren't necessarily applicable for Mass Effect, again, the hardsuits and character specific powers/abilities would inform a lot of the techniques, but the diversity and fluidity on display here is ace. I think it would really benefit Bioware to take a look at an approach like this, y’know, if they did want to expand upon the appeal and substantiality of the game’s melee combat.


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#4
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You've obviously put a lot of thought into this, so kudos.

I love melee combat in a fantasy setting, but not so much in sci fi. In a universe full of deadly weapons and biotic / tech projectiles, punching an enemy seems kinda redundant to me. I'd much rather BW put that effort into fleshing out the ME4 characters and environments TBH.

But hey, each to their own ;)
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#5
Vazgen

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I agree, melee combat should at least be equal to other playstyles, especially in case of an Infiltrator. But killing enemies silently comes with stealth and it's safe to say that ME series don't have stealth gameplay at all. I hope it will be present in ME:Next and in a larger and refined state (the point of stealth is - can't do it right, don't do it, which is true for both the developers and players). With the addition of stealth we may gain access to silent takedowns and more refined melee combat.

 

ME3 did a great job on improving melee combat. It is even possible to play a melee build, the one I'm playing now is a good example ;)



#6
XAN

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I disagree with your idea. Putting in features like this would change the gameplay of the series too much. Also, Mass Effect takes place in an age of highly advanced ranged weapons. Nobody will run into enemies and go melee (well, except a krogan). Also, the omni-blades should be removed. They are way too over the top. Mass Effect 1 and 2 had the best and most plausible combat. I don't mind if they support the melee play style in the multiplayer, but for the sake of the story and the credibility of the ME universe, melee combat has to go from the singleplayer.



#7
JAZZ_LEG3ND

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I disagree with your idea. Putting in features like this would change the gameplay of the series too much. Also, Mass Effect takes place in an age of highly advanced ranged weapons. Nobody will run into enemies and go melee (well, except a krogan). Also, the omni-blades should be removed. They are way too over the top. Mass Effect 1 and 2 had the best and most plausible combat. I don't mind if they support the melee play style in the multiplayer, but for the sake of the story and the credibility of the ME universe, melee combat has to go from the singleplayer.

Nah, that doesn't sound like a game I'd like to play.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. :)



#8
KaiserShep

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I disagree with your idea. Putting in features like this would change the gameplay of the series too much. Also, Mass Effect takes place in an age of highly advanced ranged weapons. Nobody will run into enemies and go melee (well, except a krogan). Also, the omni-blades should be removed. They are way too over the top. Mass Effect 1 and 2 had the best and most plausible combat. I don't mind if they support the melee play style in the multiplayer, but for the sake of the story and the credibility of the ME universe, melee combat has to go from the singleplayer.

 

Disagree entirely, and my vanguard scoffs at the notion. But then, there are some people who think the Vanguard should have both biotic charge and nova removed, and I hope BioWare never listens to that lot.


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#9
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Disagree entirely, and my vanguard scoffs at the notion. But then, there are some people who think the Vanguard should have both biotic charge and nova removed, and I hope BioWare never listens to that lot.

 

Vanguard is my favourite class, for sure. Biotic Charge is one of the most fun game mechanics I've ever mucked with... fly across the map and smash a dude with your face, then finish him with a punch. Don't get better than that.

 

Hah, just thinking in terms of the system from my OP. Charge has a staggering effect. Would really complement the Vanguard if that stagger let you deal more substantial melee damage.



#10
KaiserShep

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I love charging the brutes, then rolling back and doing it again with a shotgun.

#11
JAZZ_LEG3ND

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I love charging the brutes, then rolling back and doing it again with a shotgun.

 

Heck yeah.

 

Or wait a sec, then sideroll to dodge his big swing, shoot him in the back, charge, and repeat.

Great tactic for dropping Brutes in tight spaces.



#12
XAN

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Disagree entirely, and my vanguard scoffs at the notion. But then, there are some people who think the Vanguard should have both biotic charge and nova removed, and I hope BioWare never listens to that lot.

Vanguards worked fine with shotguns before they added these heavy melee moves, but I think it's fine for biotic characters to use their biotic power to melee, but "omni blades" nah. Vanguards are short range specialists so I'm fine with them doing melee, however I would be happier if we went back to the charge + shotgun blast play style.

 

About biotic charge and nova. I can understand the people who say that. Biotic charge makes you invulnerable with those shield recharges. If they increased the cooldown so that people couldn't tank without a brain then it would be alright. As for Nova, it is too arcadic and I think it should be removed. This power is a bit brain dead in my opinion.

 

Don't forget that Mass Effect is an RPG, adding too many over the top and "unrealistic" elements would destroy the game's credibility, resulting in players who truly care about the story getting alienated.

 

EDIT: After some thinking, I'm no more fine with any form of heavy melee or melee play style in SINGLEPLAYER, you can make MP as unrealistic you want though.



#13
Nitrocuban

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Fitness and melee should have never been in the same skilltree in the first place. You need the first to make use of the second so it's stupid to be forced to choose between them.

A better way would be:

- skilltree with fitness (health+shields, damage reduction while in hardcover) vs. mobility (movementspeed, damage reduction while moving, jumping, dodging)

- skilltree with melee vs. power damage/weapon damage depending on the kit

 

And how about upgradable and modable (heavy) melee weapons in addition to the other weapons?



#14
JCFR

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Well... to be frank, i think it's kinda strange resorting too much on melee-combat in a far future with space Ships, biotics and futuristic weapons. Like fighting with a carabiner and bayonet against enemies with Mgs and Rocketlauncher.
It would only make sense, by taking out enemies in stealth.

But if it comes to combat, i would prefer, if the classes wold get more weight. I mean, most classes in the ME-series felt quiite alike (especially in ME3 where everey class could use every weapon).
i wished, the RPG-system would once again gain more weight. For Example: why have biotics to use guns? Let them warp through space and throw energy-balls (a bit like modern magic).
Technics could be the equivalent of rogues.They don't stand a chance in open combat and have to resort to gimmicks and using their environment (Make enemy-grenades explode before they throw them, make fuse on walls explode or set up an automatic turret).

And i would love some more scifi-like weapons... not just the same sniper-rifles, assault- and shotguns. Where are the new and creative weapons? Like some plasma-gun whichs single-shot doesn't do much damage but the damage grows exponential with everey hit. Taser-weapones which do close to no damage but immobilize enemies, so your other party members can finish them more easy. Laser-guns, which can't penetrate energy-shields but reduce Armor when hit.

i would prefer such things over a more advanced mlee-combat-system.

#15
Oni Changas

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Vanguards worked fine with shotguns before they added these heavy melee moves, but I think it's fine for biotic characters to use their biotic power to melee, but "omni blades" nah. Vanguards are short range specialists so I'm fine with them doing melee, however I would be happier if we went back to the charge + shotgun blast play style.

About biotic charge and nova. I can understand the people who say that. Biotic charge makes you invulnerable with those shield recharges. If they increased the cooldown so that people couldn't tank without a brain then it would be alright. As for Nova, it is too arcadic and I think it should be removed. This power is a bit brain dead in my opinion.

Don't forget that Mass Effect is an RPG, adding too many over the top and "unrealistic" elements would destroy the game's credibility, resulting in players who truly care about the story getting alienated.

Think about WHO uses omniblades though. Engineers, Sentinels, Infiltrators, and Soldiers. Save for Sents and Sols, the classes put a tech twist on their attacks. Soldier omniblades are like bayonets. It fits and I can buy it.

#16
XAN

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Think about WHO uses omniblades though. Engineers, Sentinels, Infiltrators, and Soldiers. Save for Sents and Sols, the classes put a tech twist on their attacks. Soldier omniblades are like bayonets. It fits and I can buy it.

So in ME2 we were punching enemies with our weapons and then suddenly we have "omni-blades" which we use to do long wind-up attacks in a middle of a firefight? This is unrealistic. You simply don't need melee weapons (nor heavy melee) in Mass Effect. I have to change what I wrote about biotic heavy melees, now I think they have to be removed too, because that gives the biotic characters an entirely new ability, that the other characters don't have.

 

Just think about the first two Mass Effect games. We didn't need such over-the-top, "cool looking" melee attacks. The krogans were the only species who could use melee attacks effectively and it was believable, since <insert krogan codex entry here>.

 

Note that I don't mind if they keep these melee attacks in multiplayer, since that is "non-canon", it doesn't affect the story, but they make no sense in singleplayer.



#17
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I can't see how omni-blades don't make sense story-wise. Their creation is explained in a corresponding codex entry and if you think it's unrealistic, then you'll have to remove Combat Drone, Sentry Turret, Incinerate powers as well.


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#18
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So in ME2 we were punching enemies with our weapons and then suddenly we have "omni-blades" which we use to do long wind-up attacks in a middle of a firefight? This is unrealistic. You simply don't need melee weapons (nor heavy melee) in Mass Effect. I have to change what I wrote about biotic heavy melees, now I think they have to be removed too, because that gives the biotic characters an entirely new ability, that the other characters don't have.

Just think about the first two Mass Effect games. We didn't need such over-the-top, "cool looking" melee attacks. The krogans were the only species who could use melee attacks effectively and it was believable, since <insert krogan codex entry here>.

Note that I don't mind if they keep these melee attacks in multiplayer, since that is "non-canon", it doesn't affect the story, but they make no sense in singleplayer.

Seems you take issue more with the rendition of the melee combat than its actual presence. I'll admit, wanting less in terms of melee combat is something I cannot compute. All I see is "less game" "more boring" "forced generic shooting" etc. It's why I typically steer away from First Person Shooters, because comprehensive melee mechanics can't really exist in that format.

Gameplay in the original Mass Effect was not a treat, it was sufficient in that it rendered the lore's weapons and powers, but things didn't start to come into their own until Mass Effect 2, and now, Mass Effect 3 is in my mind the apex of the series' gameplay, in almost every way. The enhanced abilities--heavy melee and cover abductions--rendition notwithstanding, are huge contributors. But the plethora of power combinations and weapons/mods etc. make it an easy contender for top five action games last gen. However, the lack of any sort of systemic link between melee and all the other systems is a bit of a muzzle.

Because of my playstyle, omni-blades, biotic punching, cover abductions, they're synonymous with Mass Effect. Taking them away... I'd feel gutted, to be honest. Many of the heavy melees, especially in the multiplayer, are a large part of the given character's personality. The Vorcha, the Demolisher, and of course, the Batarian. Removing these things would change the game into something its not... something much, much less.

And you can't have different gameplay in SP and MP; that would be in every way terrible and absurd.

In terms of realism alone, I'm not remotely convinced by the "melee is not realistic in Mass Effect" argument. It's based on convenient circumstantial points of view. Hardsuits and kinetic barriers are designed to protect the wearer from conventional guns, that's why the abduction takedown in ME3 was an instakill, because in the lore, they're having a bit of a melee renaissance; it is becoming effective again.
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#19
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I get that melee is useful for a Vanguard but that is purely due to Charge - you have a power that allows you to close rapidly with an enemy and still have your full shields while theirs are down.  Even so, a shotgun blast to the face would still seem more sensible than a biotic punch, unless you're desperate to conserve ammo.

 

The other 5 classes (SP) would benefit much less from improved melee combat.  Yes, they are all capable of being played as CQC builds, but it's more a secondary option rather than playing to their logical strengths.  I get that the series asks us to suspend belief at times - mass relays, Lazarus Project, human reaper, Catalyst, etc - but acting as if melee is a smart option in a galaxy full of deadly weapons, kinetic barriers and armor is a bit much.

 

For me, this still boils down to asking BW to focus on a combat mechanic that really only benefits Vanguards and certain MP kits, when the vast majority of feedback from ME3 seems to relate to issues with player choice (i.e. role playing) and exploration.



#20
Oni Changas

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Will a kinetic barrier stop a punch, kick, or blade?

Spoilers: Its what made Kai Leng such a beast when DK was writing him.

#21
KaiserShep

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Don't forget that Mass Effect is an RPG, adding too many over the top and "unrealistic" elements would destroy the game's credibility, resulting in players who truly care about the story getting alienated.

 

If you truly care about the story, I think the mechanics of melee combat should be way at the bottom of the list of grievances, because Mass Effect's got a venerable f**k-ton of quibbles for story-oriented folks to contend with directly tied to the plot itself, especially since heavy melee is something you can simply avoid altogether, whereas those crazy story elements are always there to nag us.

 

In any case, as the other two games didn't exactly have stellar combat mechanics, especially ME1, whether or not they had melee doesn't really make much of a difference.



#22
Nitrocuban

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I agree, melee combat should at least be equal to other playstyles, especially in case of an Infiltrator. But killing enemies silently comes with stealth and it's safe to say that ME series don't have stealth gameplay at all. I hope it will be present in ME:Next and in a larger and refined state (the point of stealth is - can't do it right, don't do it, which is true for both the developers and players). With the addition of stealth we may gain access to silent takedowns and more refined melee combat.

 

ME3 did a great job on improving melee combat. It is even possible to play a melee build, the one I'm playing now is a good example ;)

That Meleefiltrator needs Shadow Strike so hard


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#23
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That Meleefiltrator needs Shadow Strike so hard

Shadow Strike will make it too easy ;)



#24
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Will a kinetic barrier stop a punch, kick, or blade?

Spoilers: Its what made Kai Leng such a beast when DK was writing him.


No, but armor will.

Not sure I would ever have called Leng a beast, but if he was a beast it was only because of plot armor.

Blades and ninja skills are all well and good for an assassin hiding in the shadows, but on a battlefield? Hmmm.