46 réponses à ce sujet

[lordsaren101]

First off I do not believe in the Maker at all or his prophetess Andraste.

 

I believe the Old Gods were active and did indeed commune with the Ancient Imperium. They are true gods. They exist in the immortal fade, but being gods can manifest in the mortal realm of Thedas as well. They have chosen to manifest in the form of enormous male dragons, but completely different and majestic than high dragons or dragons of any other form. Their forms reflect their godhood.

 

Whether or not Dumat actually convinced the Magisters to breach the fade and enter the golden city is up for debate.

 

I theorize that when the Magisters crossed into the fade that clearly something went wrong. They were corrupted and tainted somehow, perhaps it was a result of mortal flesh crossing so brazenly into the spirit realm. 

 

They returned tainted and twisted. I believe the reached out to the Physical manifestations of their gods, but the Old Gods sensing the corruption in their devotee's fled deep beneath the earth in an attempt to avoid it, perhaps sensing what it would do to their divine flesh.

 

The Darkspawn were formed from the twisted and corrupted forms of the MAgisters. They searched for their Gods, sensing their their "song". Which I surmise to be a form of communication between the gods from their self imposed exile. 

 

The darkspawn find their gods, and in attempts to commune with them as they had done as Tevinters for millenia, the fadeborn taint corrupted the Old Gods physical manifestations trapping their essences inside a maddened and twisted form. In their rage blights begin, but the taint also limits the natural power inherent to the Old Gods uncorrupted.

 

After centuries of rampage the grey wardens form. When a grey Warden delivers a killing blow to an Archdemon, supposedly the soul of the Old God is destroyed. Such is an impossiblity. Matter can neither be created nor destroyed. What actually occurs is the slaying of one corrupted form, by another negates the corruption effectively destroying both physical entities, but freeing the souls/essences.

 

I am convinced that the Old Gods return to their kingdom in the fade. They recover and grow gradually back to their true strength and selves. With very few left to worship them they do whatever it is gods do, and pay little care to most affairs of the mortal world. 

 

However I believe recent events in Thedas have changed this ambivalence. Dumat is watching, and the mage/templar war and general chaos in the Andrastian faith have piqued his interest. He has grown embittered and vengeful against those that have claimed him false. He is seeking a return to Thedas in physical form to crush the Maker's false faith. As a god he knows the MAker is a fairy tale. He wants his worshippers back, and he wants mankind to suffer for their hubris and destruction of the natural beauty of the world. The Venatori are seeking his return and preparing for it.

 

I do not believe Zazikel, Toth, Andoral and Urthemiel(who may or may not be active on Thedas dependant on player choice) necessarily share his rage, they would seem to be more content in their ambivalence.

 

A long winded post, but let me know what you think....

[Br3admax]

They were sealed away long before the Imperium even existed. 

[90s Luke]

What do you mean you don't believe in Andraste?

 

She's not a deity. She was a person. There's a historical record of her life, not to mention the spirits at the Temple of Sacred Ashes.

[nightcobra]

I'm more of the opinion that both chantry, elven and tevinter lore are right and wrong.

 

like the elven say, there were 2 types of supernatural deities, their gods and the forgotten ones.

I'd go with that the forgotten ones being fade beings and the old gods to be the elven gods

and the tying link to be the elven dread wolf, Fen'harel.

 

"In ancient times, only Fen'Harel could walk without fear among both our gods and the Forgotten Ones, for although he is kin to the gods of the People, the Forgotten Ones knew of his cunning ways and saw him as one of their own. And that is how Fen'Harel tricked them. Our gods saw him as a brother, and they trusted him when he said that they must keep to the heavens while he arranged a truce. And the Forgotten Ones trusted him also when he said he would arrange for the defeat of our gods, if only the Forgotten Ones would return to the abyss for a time. They trusted Fen'Harel, and they were all of them betrayed. And FenHarel sealed them away so they could never again walk among the People."

 

 

It is said that a long time ago, the Maker created the Fade as His first world. His first children were the spirits of the Fade and the Maker believed He had made them in His own image. Yet the Maker turned away from His first children, because while they could alter their world at will, they lacked a soul, and could only copy, not create or imagine for themselves. Dissatisfied with the result, He left the Fade behind, creating the world of Thedas instead. The next realm that the Maker created was one that his new creations would not be able to change at will. He separated it from the first by putting the Veil in between them, not realizing that His first children would be able to observe His new children and grow envious of their ability to envisage new things.

The children that populated this new realm had the spark of the divine within them, which pleased the Maker. According to the Chantry, the dwarves were not among his creations.[2] While their world was more solid than that of the spirits, these creatures were able to imagine, and dream new things because of it. But then the First Sin was committed. Malevolent beings whispered to men from across the Veil, and turned them to the worship of the Old Gods. After imprisoning the Old Gods underground, the Maker turned away from mankind, and departed to the Golden City. But the Old Gods still whispered to men, taught themblood magic. The magisters of the Tevinter Imperium found a way to enter the Golden City, believing that they were superior to the Maker. But they instead blackened the Golden City and were cast back to earth by the Maker, transforming them into monsters, known as the darkspawn. Much later on, Andraste managed to convince the Maker to forgive his creations, but Andraste was betrayed by her mortal husband Maferath, and burned at the stake. The Maker turned away from mankind once more.

 

 

 

with these stories in mind, for the moment i believe Fen'harel was the entity that would later be called the maker.

[X Equestris]

First off I do not believe in the Maker at all or his prophetess Andraste.
 
I believe the Old Gods were active and did indeed commune with the Ancient Imperium. They are true gods. They exist in the immortal fade, but being gods can manifest in the mortal realm of Thedas as well. They have chosen to manifest in the form of enormous male dragons, but completely different and majestic than high dragons or dragons of any other form. Their forms reflect their godhood.
 
Whether or not Dumat actually convinced the Magisters to breach the fade and enter the golden city is up for debate.
 
I theorize that when the Magisters crossed into the fade that clearly something went wrong. They were corrupted and tainted somehow, perhaps it was a result of mortal flesh crossing so brazenly into the spirit realm. 
 
They returned tainted and twisted. I believe the reached out to the Physical manifestations of their gods, but the Old Gods sensing the corruption in their devotee's fled deep beneath the earth in an attempt to avoid it, perhaps sensing what it would do to their divine flesh.
 
The Darkspawn were formed from the twisted and corrupted forms of the MAgisters. They searched for their Gods, sensing their their "song". Which I surmise to be a form of communication between the gods from their self imposed exile. 
 
The darkspawn find their gods, and in attempts to commune with them as they had done as Tevinters for millenia, the fadeborn taint corrupted the Old Gods physical manifestations trapping their essences inside a maddened and twisted form. In their rage blights begin, but the taint also limits the natural power inherent to the Old Gods uncorrupted.
 
After centuries of rampage the grey wardens form. When a grey Warden delivers a killing blow to an Archdemon, supposedly the soul of the Old God is destroyed. Such is an impossiblity. Matter can neither be created nor destroyed. What actually occurs is the slaying of one corrupted form, by another negates the corruption effectively destroying both physical entities, but freeing the souls/essences.
 
I am convinced that the Old Gods return to their kingdom in the fade. They recover and grow gradually back to their true strength and selves. With very few left to worship them they do whatever it is gods do, and pay little care to most affairs of the mortal world. 
 
However I believe recent events in Thedas have changed this ambivalence. Dumat is watching, and the mage/templar war and general chaos in the Andrastian faith have piqued his interest. He has grown embittered and vengeful against those that have claimed him false. He is seeking a return to Thedas in physical form to crush the Maker's false faith. As a god he knows the MAker is a fairy tale. He wants his worshippers back, and he wants mankind to suffer for their hubris and destruction of the natural beauty of the world. The Venatori are seeking his return and preparing for it.
 
I do not believe Zazikel, Toth, Andoral and Urthemiel(who may or may not be active on Thedas dependant on player choice) necessarily share his rage, they would seem to be more content in their ambivalence.
 
A long winded post, but let me know what you think....

Well, there isn't any disputing that Andraste was a real person. You can doubt that she experienced something divine, just like with real world prophets, but you can't deny she was real.

Corypheus heavily implies that it was Dumat who convinced the Magisters to breach the Golden City.

You say matter can't be created or destroyed, but it can be converted into energy. The question is whether or not souls are matter. We definitely see energy being released when the Archdemon is slain.

[Dusksworn]

Well, we know the Magisters did seek out the Golden City in search of the power of the Gods, and we do know that it was dark ever since.

 

We also have had David Gaider tell us that the Tevinter did believe that there was a Creator, who Andraste later picked up as "the Maker", who lived in the City.

 

We also know that those Magisters who sought the power of the Gods did seem to come back with immortality, and no longer required any form of sustenance. The Darkspawn supposedly don't need to eat, but they grow just fine. So does the Taint that fuels them.

 

So yeah, I don't think the Taint came from the Magisters doing nothing more but cross into the Fade, I think it came from them finding exactly what they were looking for, but receiving it rotten and befouled.

[HaHa365]

Didn't Corypheus imply that the Golden City was already black, when they got there? And that tied into them being betrayed by Dumat?

[X Equestris]

Didn't Corypheus imply that the Golden City was already black, when they got there? And that tied into them being betrayed by Dumat?

It's rather vague. His words leave it open to having turned black once they entered, or the city could have been black before they got there.

[TheEternalStudent]

 

First off I do not believe in the Maker at all or his prophetess Andraste.

 

I believe the Old Gods were active and did indeed commune with the Ancient Imperium. They are true gods. They exist in the immortal fade, but being gods can manifest in the mortal realm of Thedas as well. They have chosen to manifest in the form of enormous male dragons, but completely different and majestic than high dragons or dragons of any other form. Their forms reflect their godhood.

 

Whether or not Dumat actually convinced the Magisters to breach the fade and enter the golden city is up for debate.

 

I theorize that when the Magisters crossed into the fade that clearly something went wrong. They were corrupted and tainted somehow, perhaps it was a result of mortal flesh crossing so brazenly into the spirit realm. 

 

They returned tainted and twisted. I believe the reached out to the Physical manifestations of their gods, but the Old Gods sensing the corruption in their devotee's fled deep beneath the earth in an attempt to avoid it, perhaps sensing what it would do to their divine flesh.

 

The Darkspawn were formed from the twisted and corrupted forms of the MAgisters. They searched for their Gods, sensing their their "song". Which I surmise to be a form of communication between the gods from their self imposed exile. 

 

The darkspawn find their gods, and in attempts to commune with them as they had done as Tevinters for millenia, the fadeborn taint corrupted the Old Gods physical manifestations trapping their essences inside a maddened and twisted form. In their rage blights begin, but the taint also limits the natural power inherent to the Old Gods uncorrupted.

 

After centuries of rampage the grey wardens form. When a grey Warden delivers a killing blow to an Archdemon, supposedly the soul of the Old God is destroyed. Such is an impossiblity. Matter can neither be created nor destroyed. What actually occurs is the slaying of one corrupted form, by another negates the corruption effectively destroying both physical entities, but freeing the souls/essences.

 

I am convinced that the Old Gods return to their kingdom in the fade. They recover and grow gradually back to their true strength and selves. With very few left to worship them they do whatever it is gods do, and pay little care to most affairs of the mortal world. 

 

However I believe recent events in Thedas have changed this ambivalence. Dumat is watching, and the mage/templar war and general chaos in the Andrastian faith have piqued his interest. He has grown embittered and vengeful against those that have claimed him false. He is seeking a return to Thedas in physical form to crush the Maker's false faith. As a god he knows the MAker is a fairy tale. He wants his worshippers back, and he wants mankind to suffer for their hubris and destruction of the natural beauty of the world. The Venatori are seeking his return and preparing for it.

 

I do not believe Zazikel, Toth, Andoral and Urthemiel(who may or may not be active on Thedas dependant on player choice) necessarily share his rage, they would seem to be more content in their ambivalence.

 

A long winded post, but let me know what you think....

 

• Andraste is a historical figure, no doubt empelished by myth, but doubting her existence is a dubious choice.
• Do you doubt in a being that created the world, or that the being the Chantry worships is this being?
• What constitutes a 'true god'? Especially in a setting where god =/= omnipotence?
• All high dragons are female, and not all the old gods were male
• I doubt the taint was created by entering the Fade alone, that's a part of the Harrowing, and I'd think we'd know if apprentices sometimes just turned into Darkspawn (or whateveer Corypheus/Architect are)
• The old gods talking to eachother with this ong seems a leap from the middle of nowhere, with no evidence.
• Wait. Souls are matter now?
• Wait, so the gods blow off the lack of worship, until Dumat decides, hey I wanna be worshiped again?

I don't want to imply all of this is nonsensical, but it lacks evidenciary support.

[Miltialdes]

Andraste has existed in the history of Theldas.

 

Due to the story of the Altar of Dumat, something of this elder God persists in Theldas. 

 

In the French version Corry tells that the gold city was already black when the magisters entered in the fade. Even Anders which had great doubt about the existence of this event seems convinced of this story and who is corry. When you gave the ring of Corry  to Anders, he spoke about this ring. Sometimes I think that Corry transfered his soul to this ring and it is why Anders actes later like that and not via Larrius or the other grey warden.

 

I believe that the Creator ( future Maker) trapped the old God for unknown reason in the black City. Dumat calls his followers in Tevinter. He promised power of god and immortality and when the Magister breaked the fade they weakened the jail of the Elder gods... they succeed to free their gods but all was tainted because the " black"  surround the City is the taint.  

[Kieran G.]

The elven Pantheon was locked away in the eternal city which is inside of the fade.

 

while the forgotten ones were locked in the abyss.

 

Eternal city - Golden city

 

Abyss - Earthly prisons.

 

Might be a connection with the old gods or not. just something i should point out.

 

Also i don't know why people always assume a loot drop location is proof Dumat is alive. 

The Original Wardens were tevinter so of course they might still believe in the old gods.

And if you say maker isn't real but dumat is still alive because of his alter. then shouldn't the maker also be alive since we have seen with an actual story plot point, Andraste's ashes which are blessed by the maker, actually give healing effects and her tomb is full of spirits. 

 

I just don't see how some can say one is true while saying the other is not.

[Kieran G.]

I doubt the taint was created by entering the Fade alone, that's a part of the Harrowing, and I'd think we'd know if apprentices sometimes just turned into Darkspawn (or whateveer Corypheus/Architect are)

The harrowing you enter through your dreams. the magisters physically entered the fade. 

 

Same with the inquisitor at the start of the game.

[Dusksworn]

The elven Pantheon was locked away in the eternal city which is inside of the fade.

 

while the forgotten ones were locked in the abyss.

 

Eternal city - Golden city

 

Abyss - Earthly prisons.

 

Might be a connection with the old gods or not. just something i should point out.

 

Also i don't know why people always assume a loot drop location is proof Dumat is alive. 

The Original Wardens were tevinter so of course they might still believe in the old gods.

And if you say maker isn't real but dumat is still alive because of his alter. then shouldn't the maker also be alive since we have seen with an actual story plot point, Andraste's ashes which are blessed by the maker, actually give healing effects and her tomb is full of spirits. 

 

I just don't see how some can say one is true while saying the other is not.

Wasn't Dumat's Altar full of Demons?

[X Equestris]

Wasn't Dumat's Altar full of Demons?

Yes, a bunch of demons popped out if you defiled the altar.

[Kieran G.]

Wasn't Dumat's Altar full of Demons?

I never said it isn't true that he is alive.

 

I'm just saying we should remember its also a just a loot drop.

 

And we have seen many people say things that turn out wrong just because the dev's decided to make a small place to give us extra loot. and reuse enemies to give us a sense of challenge.

 

We should just be skeptical. that's all.

[Br3admax]

[*]All high dragons are female, and not all the old gods were male

False. They are all male.

[Kieran G.]

False. They are all male.

No he is right. 

 

http://dragonage.wik...iki/High_dragon

[Br3admax]

I'm talking about the Old Gods. 

[Kieran G.]

I'm talking about the Old Gods. 

I just checked. they do say all male. yet i don't know if that is because of the wiki or actual lore.

Modifié par Kieran G., 23 septembre 2014 - 08:39 .

[TheEternalStudent]

The harrowing you enter through your dreams. the magisters physically entered the fade. 

 

Same with the inquisitor at the start of the game.

No fade corruption when fighting the Sloth demon, or when an actual darkspawn entered the Fade in Awakening.

 

False. They are all male.

You're right, Zazikel was referred to as female in World of Thedas, it's been marked a typo.

[Kieran G.]

No fade corruption when fighting the Sloth demon, or when an actual darkspawn entered the Fade in Awakening.

And all those times you enter through your mind never through an actual tear in the veil. I never was agreeing with his post. i was just telling you a fact why the Magister going into the fade was different than our PC so far. and that making it possible that his theory is true.

[Dusksworn]

I never said it isn't true that he is alive.

 

I'm just saying we should remember its also a just a loot drop.

 

And we have seen many people say things that turn out wrong just because the dev's decided to make a small place to give us extra loot. and reuse enemies to give us a sense of challenge.

 

We should just be skeptical. that's all.

Oh, I know.

 

Just pointing out that there are alternative explanations, just as there are for the Maker.

[lordsaren101]

I dont doubt Andraste existed. I doubt and deny her divinity.

[TheEternalStudent]

And all those times you enter through your mind never through an actual tear in the veil. I never was agreeing with his post. i was just telling you a fact why the Magister going into the fade was different than our PC so far. and that making it possible that his theory is true.

Very well, the Magister's action may be unique, up until the events of Inquisition.

[TheEternalStudent]

I dont doubt Andraste existed. I doubt and deny her divinity.

She is only supposed to be tied to the maker, she's not a god, merely a special woman.