881 réponses à ce sujet

[Ophir147]

Misleading topic name? Perhaps.

 

In this thread, I invite everyone to lay out their best evidence proving that the Chantry is an evil, or at least purely corrupting influence on Thedas.

 

A few ground rules to start, off of the top of my head:

 

1) Cite everything that you can. Direct quotes are encouraged, video links are appreciated as well.

 

2) Try to put a leash on any anti-religion biases.

 

3) Learn the definition of hypocrisy before attempting to make accusations of it.

 

4) No hate speech (this includes hate directed toward fictional races, cultures and organizations that exist only within the setting). I realize I have no power to enforce this, but attempt to be civil.

 

The goal of the thread is ultimately to examine facts and events that have occurred in-game (and in the expanded universe) and perhaps to enlighten both sides of a stagnant debate.

[leaguer of one]

They only reason is because they are prideful and can learn to co-exist with anyone with a different open form theirs.

[EmperorSahlertz]

They only reason is because they are prideful and can learn to co-exist with anyone with a different open form theirs.

They've co-existed with people of different beliefs for almost 1000 years.....

[EmperorSahlertz]

double post 

[ShadowLordXII]

Hypocrisy, as I recall, is espousing ideas and principles while practicing the exact opposite. (Example: A man telling his son that drugs are bad even though he gets high every night)

 

1) One way that the Chantry is hypocritical is that they condemn the usage of blood magic and will murder/tranquilize a mage who is even suspected of using blood magic. Yet, the Chantry themselves use blood magic in the form of the phylacteries to constantly monitor mages.

 

2) They also state that magic is meant to serve man and not dominate them. However, their military wing of the templars is entirely comprised of lyrium-addicted magic knights who have acted to take direct political power over sovereign states. The most infamous overreach of power is Meredith becoming de-facto leader of Kirkwall and blocking normal procedure for a legit viscount to be elected.

 

As Gaider himself has confirmed templar abilities as being a form of magic, Meredith's actions and the idea that any branch could theoretically act in this manner without condemnation from the Divine demonstrates a contradiction within the Chantry between their laws and their practices. Not to mention the abuses that the magic knight templars commit to law-abiding mages.

 

I could speak about other stuff, but I won't bother. At the very least, the Chantry qualifies as hypocritical in the above two ways at the very least.

[Keroko]

Super-dark vision that ignores all the good it does?

Okay:

The religion was founded in blood. From the earliest inception of Andraste's rebellion against Tevinter, to Drakon's use of the Maker's name to start the conquest that would form the Orlesian Empire and finally the many exalted marches after the Chantry was finally formalized, targeting those who disagreed with their rules.

Some of their core tennets are... disturbing to say the least. Their chant encourages the obliteration of other religions (literally calling anyone who worships a god other than the Maker a sinner) and excuses such cleansing as being "for the good of the world" despite having literally no base for that claim.

It also is quite hypocritical. Despite preaching that all are equal in the Maker's eyes from behind the doors of their luxurious churches, the Chantry simply will not stop turning away from the suffering of those they themselves deemed lesser. Mages are imprisoned and under constant threat of execution of lobotomization, while elves are treated as something that is a slave race in all but name. And yet the Chantry doesn't help these people. Doesn't fight to actually practice what they preach. They expect both parties to be grateful to the Maker for their miserable lot in life.

And when someone voices discontent? Or acts to change it? Or simply don't wish to follow the Chantry's rules? Then they risk being branded a demon-loving heretic, and whatever good deed they've done will be struck from all history books. Or they might find themselves murdered. Possibly with their death being used as a rallying cry in favour of the Chantry later.

[leaguer of one]

They've co-existed with people of different beliefs for almost 1000 years.....

*Looks at the elves.

*Looks at the chasened.

 

Really now?

[Snook]

I don't think the Chantry is evil. I just think there are a lot of arseholes in it. 

[raging_monkey]

The worst thing the chantry does that could be defined as "evil" is the way the propagate their faith. The chant of light often guilts people to repent for x sin(s) either through words or force. One example is the dales but that historically contended and we have no information aside from chamtry records which are known to be doctored(any tevinter information is altered) and then they treat the surving elves as converts and people to be pitied. Then there is the magic issue where they often teach those with magic that should be coralled and in extreme cases should be annuled. Right or wrong the chantry as a whole is sadly the glue that holds southern thedas together. For all their ill they do equally good if somewhat misguided.

Now since this thread is a powder keg that would like to enjoy, im keep a fire extingusher handy

[Jaison1986]

I don't think the Chantry is evil. I just think there are a lot of arseholes in it. 

 

What else do you need for it to be evil?

[Master Warder Z_]

What else do you need for it to be evil?

 

Actual evil would be nice

[Snook]

What else do you need for it to be evil?

 

To be composed entirely of arseholes, and to have been founded by an arsehole for the sole purpose of doing arsehole things.

 

All comes down to the arseholes, really. 

[Jaison1986]

Actual evil would be nice

 

IDK, I readed a lot of historical facts about them that make them look pretty evil to me.

[Ophir147]

To be composed entirely of arseholes, and to have been founded by an arsehole for the sole purpose of doing arsehole things.

 

All comes down to the arseholes, really. 

 

These are the types of generalizations I would love to avoid.

 

Do you have anything more specific you would like to mention? Any specific practice of the chantry that you believe qualifies them all as "arseholes?"

[Master Warder Z_]

IDK, I readed a lot of historical facts about them that make them look pretty evil to me.

 

They seem pretty much the opposite to me.

 

They kept the Qunari from conquering Thedas, They kept Magic under containment more or less for a thousand years and ,most importantly of all.

 

o.o they created the elf trope for DA.

[EmperorSahlertz]

*Looks at the elves.

*Looks at the chasened.

 

Really now?

Uhm... The Chasind was chased out by the Fereldans BEFORE they became Andrastian, and the Elves lsot a war to Orlais. The Chatnry was not responsible for either.

 

What you should look at, is rather the Dwarves, and the multitude of human cultures which doesn't follow the Chantry, and yet somehow still exist 900 years later.

[Kieran G.]

Great. A new thread for arguing.

[Jaison1986]

They seem pretty much the opposite to me.

 

They kept the Qunari from conquering Thedas, They kept Magic under containment more or less for a thousand years and ,most importantly of all.

 

o.o they created the elf trope for DA.

 

True, but then again they did in an fashion that makes them look like an bunch of blood thirsty warlords. Too trigger happy in my opinion, not to mention the self righteous attitude easily get in the nerves.

[CliffMcVodka]

They are judgemental and closed-minded to other faiths. My Dalish Warden in Origins was told "begone, heathen" by a chantry priest in Ostagar just because he didn't hold the same beliefs as the Chantry.

[Hellion Rex]

They are judgemental and closed-minded to other faiths. My Dalish Warden in Origins was told "begone, heathen" by a chantry priest in Ostagar just because he didn't hold the same beliefs as the Chantry.

Mhmm, and like the Dalish are always warm and fuzzy to non Dalish elves?

[raging_monkey]

Great. A new thread for arguing.

catch*tosses spare fire extingusher* we'll need these. Remember short controlled bursts

[Keroko]

Uhm... The Chasind was chased out by the Fereldans BEFORE they became Andrastian, and the Elves lsot a war to Orlais. The Chatnry was not responsible for either.
 
What you should look at, is rather the Dwarves, and the multitude of human cultures which doesn't follow the Chantry, and yet somehow still exist 900 years later.

Dwarves have monopoly on the lyrium, which the Chantry needs to keep its own personal army in check. The dwarf/Chantry status-quo is of necessity, not choice. And helped by the fact that dwarves are isolationists and not likely to spread their beliefs, making them far less of a threat to the Chantry.

As for the elves, that was an Exalted March. Exalted Marches are called by the Chantry. They had everything to do with the war with the elves (arguably even starting it). And even more with the complete obliteration of their culture and the resulting near-enslavement of elves, even though their own religion claims that "all are equal before the eyes of the Maker."

[Snook]

Do you have anything more specific you would like to mention? Any specific practice of the chantry that you believe qualifies them all as "arseholes?"

 

You know that's not what I'm saying I think about the Chantry, right? I'm saying they're not all like that.

[Master Warder Z_]

They had everything to do with the war with the elves.

 

Besides starting it

 

Which to me seems the important bit.