881 réponses à ce sujet

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I think the supposed reason is that by letting him help you he concludes that maybe what he did wasn't so bad after all. That's kind of a stretch but he is a little on the unstable side by that point.

[Ryzaki]

I think the supposed reason is that by letting him help you he concludes that maybe what he did wasn't so bad after all. That's kind of a stretch but he is a little on the unstable side by that point.

 

More than a stretch really considering he and Justice are having their little tug of wars (That Anders is losing) on the rival track that never occur on friendship.

 

Edit: That and the mages wouldn't have been threatened with slaughter enmasse if he hadn't (or rather if Vengeance hadn't) pretty much handed Meredith the gun.

 

So he's losing himself to someone he admits is a demon to the extent of him having blackouts and not knowing wtf vengeance is doing, then blows up a church (after using Hawke to do it no less) and give Meredith free reign to start a slaughter of the mages, is clearly dismayed at what's occured (where's friendship Anders is more resigned than horrified) Hawke decides to go "wait a minute" and defend the mages...and he justifies this as all being for the better?

 

Uh...

 

It also really doesn't help the whole siding with the mages to stop Meredith somehow equaling I support mage freedom crap either.

[Inquisitor Julianos]

I would support it as a symbolic act within a story, representing crossing boundaries from the known into the unknown that someone claims I have no business crossing.

 

In strict roleplaying terms, divested of the symbolism, I would treat him like any other superpower, and the attempt to steal knowledge from him would be akin to stealing the US of A's military secrets. It may be illegal and extremely risky, but I certainly can't find anything morally objectionable in it. And yes, that also applies if I'm the victim. I would certainly try to prevent this from happening, but if someone succeeds my reaction would be annoyance at my inability to prevent it, not moral outrage.  

what if said secrect knowledge was to great for the Minds of Mortals? and you did not have a choice in its usage?

[EmperorSahlertz]

I would support it as a symbolic act within a story, representing crossing boundaries from the known into the unknown that someone claims I have no business crossing.

 

In strict roleplaying terms, divested of the symbolism, I would treat him like any other superpower, and the attempt to steal knowledge from him would be akin to stealing the US of A's military secrets. It may be illegal and extremely risky, but I certainly can't find anything morally objectionable in it. And yes, that also applies if I'm the victim. I would certainly try to prevent this from happening, but if someone succeeds my reaction would be annoyance at my inability to prevent it, not moral outrage.  

You don't think it is morally objectionable to steal? 

[SmilesJA]

Uh...it's the same exact dialogue you get if you friended him the entire time. (The dialogue you get on the box is different if you rivaled him yes and that's when he's very visibly more distraught cause he can not control Vengeance and guilty because of what he's done). That continues if have him side with the templars.

 

Yet for some reason that goes poof! If you side with the mages.

 

Anders did have a desire to have Justice be free when accepts that he would pay for what he's done with his life. I think it's a leap to assume that he and Justice are "BFF's".

[Jedi Master of Orion]

More than a stretch really considering he and Justice are having their little tug of wars (That Anders is losing) on the rival track that never occur on friendship.

 

It also really doesn't help the whole siding with the mages to stop Meredith somehow equaling I support mage freedom crap either.

 

Doesn't he still support mage freedom from the Chantry though? I wasn't able to max out the rivalry meter when I tried to get him to show remorse for his actions so in the end our relationship ended with him just complaining that he and Hawke didn't get along and then he defiantly set the bomb same as the friend version. I thought the tug of war between them is more about the extremes to which they were willing to go to.

[Dean_the_Young]

Then I'm doing something wrong with my presentation. In those cases I would take great pains not to destroy anything. Also, there is a fundamental difference in legitimate ownership. It's one thing to point at a site hundred meters away from your house and tell me I may not go there because it's your culture's sacred site, and quite another to point at a star in the center of the galaxy and tell me the same. The Golden City is much more akin to the latter.

Why is there a fundamental difference in these? 'Legitimacy' is a cultural conceit as arbitrary as any dogma- you just appear to like it more. Nor is there any inherent relationship between the sincerity of a closely-held cultural site and the distance involved.

 

 

 

 

 

Anyway the comparison does not work so well because this is ultimately always about knowledge that nobody has as yet, so nobody can claim legitimate ownership. Ultimately, this is about ideologies that want to prevent me from exploring the unknown in specific directions. And that, I believe nobody has the right to do.

 

 

If you don't want to be compared to the sort of archeologist who would break into the Yucca mountain nuclear waste repository out of ignorance, it would behoove you to lay out an intellectual framework about why you wouldn't break into the Yucca mountain nuclear waste repository out of ignorance. 'Legitimate ownership' doesn't cut it, not least because the point of the repository is a no-ownership scenario, nor does 'I would take great pains not to destroy anything' when accessing the knowlege within requires the destruction of the containment.

 

It doesn't help that you've so far set out a no-win scenario for any sort of 'legitimate' restriction authority. If it's a god who says so, it's an unjust and immoral, illegitimate restriction and should be strived to be overturn. If it's not a god but merely deemed a god (er, yeah, something like that), then it's illegitimate and should be overturned. If it's a  bunch of people, they have no right to do so and so are illegitimate and should be overturned.

 

After the last few years I've yet to see you lay out any 'legitimate' authority to forbid you from breaking open a secret. The only 'legitimate' restrictions I can ever recall you claiming to respect are just as arbitrary and culturally dependent as the dogma you vocally reject. That's far from a convincing distinction from someone who has in the past excused acting out of ignorance in the name of acting out of ignorance.

[Master Warder Z_]

Humans should control human destiny, regardless of cost.

 

I personally believe that Mantra.

[Ryzaki]

Doesn't he still support mage freedom from the Chantry though? I wasn't able to max out the rivalry meter when I tried to get him to show remorse for his actions so in the end our relationship ended with him just complaining that he and Hawke didn't get along and then he defiantly set the bomb same as the friend version. I thought the tug of war between them is more about the extremes to which they were willing to go to.

 

No. He starts supporting coming to a compromise. He mentions talking to Elthina. (which then begs the question why he didn't start with that because it's not like he was going to be arrested anyway given everyone and their mother knows he's an apostate.)

 

You get a final conversation in the rivalry where he pretty much admits he's going about what he's doing in a crappy way then Justice interrupts and pretty much shows him he's then made a huge mistake and Hawke can point out that he can't even control himself anymore. He wants to try to fix it but he obviously fails given the bomb goes off.

 

Anders did have a desire to have Justice be free when accepts that he would pay for what he's done with his life. I think it's a leap to assume that he and Justice are "BFF's".

 

The whole "if I die maybe he'll be free then." bit? True but that's him being suicidal because he sees what he's morphed Justice into.

 

Again this remains constant if you side with the templars with his rivaled self (he admits to not knowing how long he can hold vengeance back and is heavily suicidal) yet vanishes on the mage route. (Instead you get that MAGE FREEDOM RAR bit which makes no sense given the earlier rivalry conversations about compromising).

 

Edit: There's no mention of Vengeance being an overzealous threat either. (thus my BFF remark).

 

As it is if I want consistency if I'm siding with the mages after rivaling him I just kill him.
 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 25 septembre 2014 - 01:03 .

[Hellion Rex]

Ow, my head hurts from watching Ieldra and Dean debate lol. They are way too smart for me. Can we go back to fighting?

[EmperorSahlertz]

Ow, my head hurts from watching Ieldra and Dean debate lol. They are way too smart for me. Can we go back to fighting?

No we cannot go back to fighting Elvianus! GAWD! You always wanna fight!

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

No we cannot go back to fighting Elvianus! GAWD! You always wanna fight!

 

We cannot interrupt.

 

Let them fight debate.

[Master Warder Z_]

I thought Yucca was dead on the vine, last i heard funding was killed via Obama's slashing of various budgets.

[Hellion Rex]

No we cannot go back to fighting Elvianus! GAWD! You always wanna fight!

But if we fight, I feel like I can at least get a word in edgewise. When those two go at it, I feel like anything I say is gonna look extremely dumb next to the eloquence of their posts.

[Ieldra]

Now, back to Dragon Age and the Chantry. Removing the entire topic of the Golden City and the ancient Magisters. What is your overall opinion in regards to Adrian, Fiona, Rhys, Evangeline, Lambert, and Justinia V? I'm genuinely curious what you think of each of them. 

How did we get from the question whether the Chantry is evil to this?

 

Fiona: has no business being Grand Enchanter if she can't keep her passions in check. I do not respect her.

Adrian: betraying your friend for the cause is a bit much.

Lambert: A deluded fanatic.

Rhys: Something like the only sane man.

Evangeline: someone who genuinely struggles with her duties and conscience. I always respect it if someone tries to work things out for themselves rather than accepting what they're told.  

Justinia: Don't recall her well enough to have an opinion.

[Master Warder Z_]

Rhys: Something like the only sane man.

 

He was an incompetent child.

[Ryzaki]

But if we fight, I feel like I can at least get a word in edgewise. When those two go at it, I feel like anything I say is gonna look extremely dumb next to the eloquence of their posts.

 

Oh good it's not just me.

 

*passes around skittles*

[EmperorSahlertz]

But if we fight, I feel like I can at least get a word in edgewise. When those two go at it, I feel like anything I say is gonna look extremely dumb next to the eloquence of their posts.

Just post cat gifs. It will automatically invalidate any claim they make or point they are trying to argue. Try it. You'll see.

[Inquisitor Julianos]

they all have merits, and flaws, good points and bad points. honestly the only truely evil people in DA... Are the Dark Spawn and the Demons.

[TheJediSaint]

Oh good it's not just me.

 

*passes around skittles*

At least people aren't trying to out-condescend each other.  That's a plus.

[Hellion Rex]

they all have merits, and flaws, good points and bad points. honestly the only truely evil people in DA... Are the Dark Spawn and the Demons.

And Petrice. Vile, evil woman.

[Ryzaki]

they all have merits, and flaws, good points and bad points. honestly the only truely evil people in DA... Are the Dark Spawn and the Demons.

 

*queue someone bringing up the Architect*

 

...I wonder if we'll see a sympathetic demon in DAI...

[Hellion Rex]

...I wonder if we'll see a sympathetic demon in DAI...

*cough*Cole*cough*

[Ryriena]

But if we fight, I feel like I can at least get a word in edgewise. When those two go at it, I feel like anything I say is gonna look extremely dumb next to the eloquence of their posts.

I love it when those two go at in debate. It's fun, and funny because I understand their arguments. I read the lore as somewhat with a hint of salt, as I know the chant and history books are written by a powerful reglious organization.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

*queue someone bringing up the Architect*

 

...I wonder if we'll see a sympathetic demon in DAI...

 

Demon-y bob: I mean sure I like messing with mortals but you know.. don't be a dick about it right?