881 réponses à ce sujet

[Keroko]

So its a glorified case of "he said / she said" then? Not sure that supports anyone's argument other than the one we favour.

Oh, I'm not holding the elves blameless here. There is no sign whatsoever that Red Crossing was a military target, so the war was obviously one of vengeance. I'm just saying that the March on the Dales was more than a valorous war to defend Andrastian lands. A way to start a war with the elves and still look like the hero.

Given Orlais' penchant for subtlety and trickery to get what they want, and almost every highest-ranking members of the Chantry being Orlesian, this shouldn't come as much a surprise as it seems to do.
 

Indeed. One flavour of Andrastian's made war on another flavour of Andrastian's. This is no different from any nation declaring war on any other for perceived slights, trade disputes or just plain animosity.

None of this prove the Chantry is evil, just that they didnt see the funny side of Tevinter trolling.

What it does prove is that the Chantry is not afraid to convert by the sword if push comes to shove.

Hell, the Chantry's initial groundwork was laid by the sword. Not just Andraste's rebellion, but the events following her death as well. Following Hesserian's stabbing of Andraste, he rapidly converted, declared the Maker the one true god and gave the Priests of the Seven Temples a simple ultimatum: Convert or die. He followed through with it too.

Which is also the root cause of the schism between the Imperial and Orlesian Chantry. The actual groundwork of the Chantry as we know it originates from Tevinter, organized during the time when Orlais was still a fragmented land of warring tribes. When Emperor Drakon declared Justina the head of the Chantry and Orlais the centre of the religion, the Tevinters understandably had a big WTF moment.

[EmperorSahlertz]

I knew I shouldn't have tried to keep things simple. I was mainly talking about knowledge about how the world works, basically scientific knowledge, not the things people keep in their computers about their personal lives. About the former, I do indeed believe that nobody has the moral right to keep it secret and approve foiling attempts to do so. There is a grey zone for technological processes like "how to build x", where it's necessary that some things are kept secret in order to let the inventor profit from them. That's what we have patents for, and I do approve of those, but only on a temporary basis and only for technological processes and inventions actually created by someone. Fundamentally I believe such knowledge belongs to all of humanity.

 

All right, I think that was enough OT for now. These things can get complex if we go deeper, and I'm disinclined to do that here.

It isn't really OT, it is just an exploration of your reasoning behind being opposed to the Chantry. It may enlighten the discussion, and help formulate other's opinion for and against the Chantry.

Personally I am in the firm belief that somethings should be kept secret, hence why I don't hold it against the Chantry for antagonizing the Magisters.

[Br3admax]

From what I've seen, they don't like boundaries of any kind and think that we should do whatever and not be told otherwise. 

[TheJediSaint]

From what I've seen, they don't like boundaries of any kind and think that we should do whatever and not be told otherwise. 

I like boundaries, so long as I get to choose where they go.

[Steelcan]

I like boundaries, so long as I get to choose where they go.

clearly they have to be clearly defined and separate from the rest of the furniture, otherwise you mess up the flow of the room

[HK-90210]

Er... no. All it means is that you don't consider your own religion the only way to go for everyone. A religion that happens to be inclusive, as opposed to exclusive.

 

Are you saying that Stone Worship and the Elven Pantheon are inclusive religions? Just not sure which part of my post you're referring to.

 

Edit: Also, do you mean 'inclusive' as in they can incorporate and tolerate other religions win their worldview, or 'inclusive' as in they welcome any who believe?

[Ieldra]

It isn't really OT, it is just an exploration of your reasoning behind being opposed to the Chantry. It may enlighten the discussion, and help formulate other's opinion for and against the Chantry.

Personally I am in the firm belief that somethings should be kept secret, hence why I don't hold it against the Chantry for antagonizing the Magisters.

Well, I certainly don't believe that the knowledge of how to build a nuclear bomb should be on the internet. But any such restriction raises the question of "who decides"? For pragmatic reasons it may be best to not give it to anyone, but in end nobody is any more or less deserving of it than any other. It you claim that "those who would use it responsibly are more deserving", I would agree, but who sets the limit? Who decides who is responsible enough? Decisions about such things are inseparable from politics, and am not willing to grant exceptional rights to the politically powerful who usually end up in the position to make them.

 

Also, the whole picture changes if those who would forbid knowledge don't themselves know what it is they are forbidding. The Chantry does not know what's in the Golden City and they certainly didn't know what would happen when the magisters entered it. In such cases, the restriction is completely arbitrary, nothing more than an assertion of power over what others might and might not explore. You can't reasonably expect anyone who's not already a believer to go along with it, can you?

 

And lastly, suppose they did know that the Thedas equivalent of intercontinental nuclear fallout complete with mindless hyperagressive mutants would descend on the world as a consequence of the magisters' attempt. Who would ever believe that this is not yet another propaganda campaign if the Chantry didn't reveal anything concrete, complete with the way they acquired that knowledge? And who, from the outside, would ever be in a position to know that this isn't yet another political propaganda campaign aimed at keeping valuable resources for themselves?

[Keroko]

Are you saying that Stone Worship and the Elven Pantheon are inclusive religions? Just not sure which part of my post you're referring to.

Edit: Also, do you mean 'inclusive' as in they can incorporate and tolerate other religions win their worldview, or 'inclusive' as in they welcome any who believe?

In my opinion, inclusive means that they can potentially live besides another religion without much fuss. The stone worship is one of the few religions that doesn't deny the others, due to how it only applies to the dwarves. A dwarf can shrug of a priest's proclamation that all are children of the Maker, believing that he was born from the stone and that the priest is just babbling.

The only other one I can think of is, amusingly, the Tevinters. They worship the old gods and their whims, but from what I recall the religion itself does not proclaim to be the only one. Just the supreme one.

The Dalish and Chantry religions will forever be at odds with eachother though, due to both of them claiming that their gods created the world. The Chantry, traditionally, has the problem of demanding that everyone follow their religion or dooming the world. So while a dwarf could walk past a priest and ignore him, the priests cannot continue to ignore the dwarf.

And when one side demands the other to change, sparks fly.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

This whole "The Magister's story is just Chantry propaganda" thing made me want to post this.

 

[Super Drone]

In my opinion, inclusive means that they can potentially live besides another religion without much fuss. The stone worship is one of the few religions that doesn't deny the others, due to how it only applies to the dwarves. A dwarf can shrug of a priest's proclamation that all are children of the Maker, believing that he was born from the stone and that the priest is just babbling.

The only other one I can think of is, amusingly, the Tevinters. They worship the old gods and their whims, but from what I recall the religion itself does not proclaim to be the only one. Just the supreme one.

The Dalish and Chantry religions will forever be at odds with eachother though, due to both of them claiming that their gods created the world. The Chantry, traditionally, has the problem of demanding that everyone follow their religion or dooming the world. So while a dwarf could walk past a priest and ignore him, the priests cannot continue to ignore the dwarf.

And when one side demands the other to change, sparks fly.

 

"Dwarves don't come from the Maker..."  --Wynne.

[Keroko]

This whole "The Magister's story is just Chantry propaganda" thing made me want to post this.
 

Corypheus does raise an interesting point though. While the magisters were responsible for bringing the blight to Thedas, what, who and how cursed them with the blight is still up in the air.

His first-hand report of his visit to the Golden City states that the city was already corrupted (also leading to the question who had beaten them to the punch), so it was no longer the seat of the Maker at that time.

So how did they contract the taint? Was it simply the corruption or the city itself? Or did someone else curse them?

Someone... Elder, perhaps?

"Dwarves don't come from the Maker..." --Wynne.

Exactly. So a dwarf can just ignore all the Maker rambling, knowing it doesn't apply to him.

Though the dwarves have arguably a pretty big beef to fry with the Maker, if we go by the Chantry events of things. They are not his creations, had no direct part in defiling his city and yet they were the first to get their civilization absolutely wrecked because the Maker thought it would be fun if the darkspawn would come from below.

"Oops, haha, didn't see you down there. You're all so very short." ~The Maker, realizing his blunder.

[Ryriena]

The slaughter was motivated by an inability to convert them back to the worship of the Maker in the Chantry.

And thus an evil act that tore the veil because they killed unarmed people that would not convert to the Chantry. That's sounds like violent means to me.

[Ryriena]

This whole "The Magister's story is just Chantry propaganda" thing made me want to post this.

Listen to his dialog first all he saw a blacken city not a golden city.

[HK-90210]

What it does prove is that the Chantry is not afraid to convert by the sword if push comes to shove.

Hell, the Chantry's initial groundwork was laid by the sword. Not just Andraste's rebellion, but the events following her death as well. Following Hesserian's stabbing of Andraste, he rapidly converted, declared the Maker the one true god and gave the Priests of the Seven Temples a simple ultimatum: Convert or die. He followed through with it too.

 

No one looking objectively at Thedosian history can disagree that Andrastianism was founded on war and death. That being said, it was also converted people willingly at the time, too. See Shartan and probably most of Tevinter slaves. Andraste was obviously a very compelling figure in her time, even moreso after her death. But still, the religion's foundations were in war. A war to end systematic injustices in Tevinter, but still a war. Hessarian's 'convert or die' stance was doubtlessly done for both religious and political reasons. Afterall, a great deal of his population had just seen him kill their messiah, and there was a huge army that still flew her flag. Had he NOT converted, politically he'd be in hot water. Once he did convert, however, he had to be brutal with his enforcement of the new religion. But these were the actions of a ruthless politician, not the Chantry. The Chantry as we know it didn't even exist until Emperor Drakon formed it in -3 Ancient. We can hardly hold his actions over their heads.

 

That begin said, does the current Chantry practice conversion by the sword? Each of the Exalted Marches can be explained away as the Chantry reacting to an outside threat, or having an internal squabble over theology. The last Exalted March ended with the signing of the Llomerryn Accord in 7:84 Storm. The nationalist and minority Chantry forces in Rivain led a massacre in their home country after Qunari converts refused to abide by the treaty and leave for Qunari lands. This was over 150 years ago. In the time since, the Chantry has been under no serious external threat. The Blessed Age was a time of peace for the Chantry(Ferelden, not so much). The current Chantry isn't really set on the conversion of the heretics and heathens. It's more focused on the interests of the church within lands that are already held by Andrastian rulers. But the secular rulers in Andrastian lands seem pretty able to hold their own against the Chantry if they need to. None of them are theocracies.

 

I think the OP's labeling of the Chantry as evil is mistaken. They are a political force, just like any other. You mind as well label Orlais or Ferelden evil for what they have done to the City Elves. But it's not that simple. It never is.

[Aimi]

People frequently dislike the rivalry paths because few people like being confrontational, but one of the big themes of the rivalry arcs is confronting the companions on character failings and weaknesses that they'd never confront if you simply agreed with them. Making Aveline confront her less-than-lawful attitudes, Isabella's selfishness, Fenris and his mage PTSD...

While all of this is true (and you know I'm a huge fan of the Isabela rivalry path), it's also true that acting in ways that gain rivalry instead of friendship from some of these characters can compel the player to play as a Hawke that is actually pretty contemptible. Most of Aveline's rivalry points come from Hawke being a scumbag; most of Varric's come from being plain mean, if not outright psychopathically murderous. Bethany's the same way. It's also true of Sebastian to a somewhat lesser degree. With Isabela, Fenris, Anders, Carver, or Merrill, it's relatively easy to stack rivalry from situations that don't require Hawke to, well, openly metagame 'bad' behavior in order to accumulate rivalry for 'good' relationship arcs, but that isn't the case every time.

Part of this might be down to how diffuse the rivalry system is: because none of your companions are outright evil, you can earn rivalry both for confronting their personal flaws and for doing crappy things. There's a fair amount of thematic confusion there that can reduce the impact of a lot of those rivalry stories.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Corypheus does raise an interesting point though. While the magisters were responsible for bringing the blight to Thedas, what, who and how cursed them with the blight is still up in the air.

His first-hand report of his visit to the Golden City states that the city was already corrupted (also leading to the question who had beaten them to the punch), so it was no longer the seat of the Maker at that time.

So how did they contract the taint? Was it simply the corruption or the city itself? Or did someone else curse them?

Someone... Elder, perhaps?

Yeah, it is possible that what was seen as the house of the Maker was in truth a prison for an exceptionally strong demon, like a Greater Pride Demon(which I think the Elder One is). The Taint could have originally been meant as some form of a security system to keep other demons away, since we know from Avernus that it is effective against Demons and thus they fear it. 

 

 

Exactly. So a dwarf can just ignore all the Maker rambling, knowing it doesn't apply to him.

Though the dwarves have arguably a pretty big beef to fry with the Maker, if we go by the Chantry events of things. They are not his creations, had no direct part in defiling his city and yet they were the first to get their civilization absolutely wrecked because the Maker thought it would be fun if the darkspawn would come from below.

"Oops, haha, didn't see you down there. You're all so very short." ~The Maker, realizing his blunder.

The Darkspawn attacking the Dwarves first is most likely because the Old Gods are sealed underground. The Darkspawn are looking for them, so stumbling across the Dwarves was inevitable.

 

Though there could be an argument made that they, or at least the leaders of the Dwarven Empire, had a part in it. They are the ones that supply Tevinter with Lyrium after all, a crucial component to get to the 'Golden' City. 

[Mirrman70]

I still subscribe to the idea that all the religions are connected. Different stories for similar things. just have to change names around.

[Dusksworn]

In my opinion, inclusive means that they can potentially live besides another religion without much fuss. The stone worship is one of the few religions that doesn't deny the others, due to how it only applies to the dwarves. A dwarf can shrug of a priest's proclamation that all are children of the Maker, believing that he was born from the stone and that the priest is just babbling.

The only other one I can think of is, amusingly, the Tevinters. They worship the old gods and their whims, but from what I recall the religion itself does not proclaim to be the only one. Just the supreme one.

The Dalish and Chantry religions will forever be at odds with eachother though, due to both of them claiming that their gods created the world. The Chantry, traditionally, has the problem of demanding that everyone follow their religion or dooming the world. So while a dwarf could walk past a priest and ignore him, the priests cannot continue to ignore the dwarf.

And when one side demands the other to change, sparks fly.

 

The Dalish don't claim their Gods created the world. I believe it was said that they believed their Gods were born from the world...

 

Anyway, Andrastians could still argue that the Maker made the Stone that made the Dwarves.
 

[Ryriena]

^ I would stop calling it a golden city, when the thing had been corrupted already by the time Cory's team had gotten their, in the first place. The Blacken City was probably the Eternal city of the Elven Pathon story, as they state in their own lore it was closed off from them by their version of the Loki figure in Norse mythology Fen'Harel. According, too the wiki page their gods are locked in a city in the fade sound familiar? Ie The Blacken City.

[HiroVoid]

Though apparently it looked Golden in the fade before they made it there and only looked Black after they made it there.

[HK-90210]

^ I would stop calling it a golden city, when the thing had been corrupted already by the time Cory's team had gotten their, in the first place. The Blacken City was probably the Eternal city of the Elven Pathon story, as they state in their own lore it was closed off from them by their version of the Loki figure in Norse mythology Fen'Harel. Acorrding too wiki their gods are locked in a city in the fade sound familiar? Ie The Blacken City.

 

Chantry tradition still says that the Magisters' very presence in the Golden City blackened it. That still applies. Corypheus never saw the Golden City because his presence made it black. This is the Fade we're talking about here. There's no reason to believe that the effects of Magister prescience in such a place didn't blacken it immediately.

 

We do know that the Black City, the only constant in the Fade, was once Golden. But after the Magisters entered it, it became Black. Something definitely changed when the magisters did what the did.

 

Edit: Semi ninj'd

[Mirrman70]

^ I would stop calling it a golden city, when the thing had been corrupted already by the time Cory's team had gotten their, in the first place. The Blacken City was probably the Eternal city of the Elven Pathon story, as they state in their own lore it was closed off from them by their version of the Loki figure in Norse mythology Fen'Harel. According, too the wiki page their gods are locked in a city in the fade sound familiar? Ie The Blacken City.

 

and all their evil gods are sealed below...

 

and Fen'Harel was a notorious trickster too that would often make deals with people that had a double meaning and eventually tricked both the good and bad gods into being sealed away. but that means Fen'harel wasn't and that he/she is still roaming the world attempting to mastermind a way to prevent both the gods below and above from breaking free.........

 

 

(Flemeth, I got my eye on you)

[Ryriena]

Chantry tradition still says that the Magisters' very presence in the Golden City blackened it. That still applies. Corypheus never saw the Golden City because his presence made it black. This is the Fade we're talking about here. There's no reason to believe that the effects of Magister prescience in such a place didn't blacken it immediately.

We do know that the Black City, the only constant in the Fade, was once Golden. But after the Magisters entered it, it became Black. Something definitely changed when the magisters did what the did.

Edit: Semi ninj'd

Chantry history also get things wrong and could be trying to explain something away by saying the mages mere presence was the cause. Religious texts tend to have mild truth to them or symbolism, when they been around for thousand of years. Look at the Life of Jesus for an example, in fact, the bible we've got now have twelve books missing from the official version.

Cory never said he caused the city to go black it had been blacken already.

[Ryzaki]

I've always viewed the Friendship routes in DA2 as pardoning and even enabling the companion's dysfunctions because you happen to agree with them- the character development analog to 'it's not a bug, it's a feature!'

 

People frequently dislike the rivalry paths because few people like being confrontational, but one of the big themes of the rivalry arcs is confronting the companions on character failings and weaknesses that they'd never confront if you simply agreed with them. Making Aveline confront her less-than-lawful attitudes, Isabella's selfishness, Fenris and his mage PTSD...

 

As for Anders, there's a lot of signs and indicators of an increasingly severe mental illness and personality disorder as the game goes on. Some people... just like where it takes him, and don't see it as a flaw.

 

 

Ugh I would be outta likes now but yeah agreed.

[Ryriena]

Though apparently it looked Golden in the fade before they made it there and only looked Black after they made it there.

Yes that's probably, how the Loki figure locked the gods away by getting the mages to enter into the fade. Or it was a spell that caused the look of the golden city.