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Why the Chantry is Evil.


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#701
Ryzaki

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While all of this is true (and you know I'm a huge fan of the Isabela rivalry path), it's also true that acting in ways that gain rivalry instead of friendship from some of these characters can compel the player to play as a Hawke that is actually pretty contemptible. Most of Aveline's rivalry points come from Hawke being a scumbag; most of Varric's come from being plain mean, if not outright psychopathically murderous. Bethany's the same way. It's also true of Sebastian to a somewhat lesser degree. With Isabela, Fenris, Anders, Carver, or Merrill, it's relatively easy to stack rivalry from situations that don't require Hawke to, well, openly metagame 'bad' behavior in order to accumulate rivalry for 'good' relationship arcs, but that isn't the case every time.

Part of this might be down to how diffuse the rivalry system is: because none of your companions are outright evil, you can earn rivalry both for confronting their personal flaws and for doing crappy things. There's a fair amount of thematic confusion there that can reduce the impact of a lot of those rivalry stories.

 

Also agreed. BW mixed disapproval and rivalry and it screwed it up. Disapproval should've been a separate scale.



#702
HiroVoid

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Yes that's probably, how the Loki figure locked the gods away by getting the mages to enter into the fade. Or it was a spell that caused the look of the golden city.

So in other words, the city looked golden in the fade before, and now it always appears black.  Then, of course, something happened that made Corypheus darkspawn-y.



#703
Br3admax

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Yes that's probably, how the Loki figure locked the gods away by getting the mages to enter into the fade. Or it was a spell that caused the look of the golden city.

That makes no sense at all. The Old Gods were locked away long before the Imperium existed. 



#704
Ryriena

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That makes no sense at all. The Old Gods were locked away long before the Imperium existed.


I said that might be how the gods were locked away, but it's looks like we're fighting an elder god or at least something akin to an elder god in DAI.

#705
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No one looking objectively at Thedosian history can disagree that Andrastianism was founded on war and death. That being said, it was also converted people willingly at the time, too. See Shartan and probably most of Tevinter slaves.


Well, yes. Denying willing converts would be stupid. I will call the Chantry many things, but stupid isn't one of them.

Andraste was obviously a very compelling figure in her time, even moreso after her death. But still, the religion's foundations were in war. A war to end systematic injustices in Tevinter, but still a war. Hessarian's 'convert or die' stance was doubtlessly done for both religious and political reasons. Afterall, a great deal of his population had just seen him kill their messiah, and there was a huge army that still flew her flag. Had he NOT converted, politically he'd be in hot water. Once he did convert, however, he had to be brutal with his enforcement of the new religion. But these were the actions of a ruthless politician, not the Chantry. The Chantry as we know it didn't even exist until Emperor Drakon formed it in -3 Ancient. We can hardly hold his actions over their heads.


Technically, the Orlesian Chantry copied the Tevinter system, added a few tweaks to it, and pretended it had created the Chantry itself.

Because politics. Having the Chantry centered in your country under your rule gives you immense influence. And Drakon had just finished unifying his land by the sword in the name of the Maker, so a little boost in influence and popularity was probably not misplaced.
 

That begin said, does the current Chantry practice conversion by the sword? Each of the Exalted Marches can be explained away as the Chantry reacting to an outside threat, or having an internal squabble over theology. The last Exalted March ended with the signing of the Llomerryn Accord in 7:84 Storm. The nationalist and minority Chantry forces in Rivain led a massacre in their home country after Qunari converts refused to abide by the treaty and leave for Qunari lands. This was over 150 years ago. In the time since, the Chantry has been under no serious external threat. The Blessed Age was a time of peace for the Chantry(Ferelden, not so much). The current Chantry isn't really set on the conversion of the heretics and heathens. It's more focused on the interests of the church within lands that are already held by Andrastian rulers. But the secular rulers in Andrastian lands seem pretty able to hold their own against the Chantry if they need to. None of them are theocracies.


I have argued, and will continue to argue, that the Chantry was heavily involved in starting the war with the elves. The historical accounts of both sides are filled with gaps until they are put next to eachother. This does not justify the elves in any way, but does show that the Chantry was looking to gain from that war from the very beginning.

The Tevinter marches were much more straightforward: Already suffering from a rather low reputation due to being, well, Tevinter, when they then altered the Chant of Light to reflect better on mages the Chantry had all the excuse they needed to bring the heretics back in line again (nevermind that the Orlesian Chantry rewrote the chant for their own benefit themselves as well).

^ I would stop calling it a golden city, when the thing had been corrupted already by the time Cory's team had gotten their, in the first place. The Blacken City was probably the Eternal city of the Elven Pathon story, as they state in their own lore it was closed off from them by their version of the Loki figure in Norse mythology Fen'Harel. According, too the wiki page their gods are locked in a city in the fade sound familiar? Ie The Blacken City.


And the elven religion does mention four evil Forgotten ones, while the mages found four greater demons, There do seem to be a lot of parallels.

Chantry tradition still says that the Magisters' very presence in the Golden City blackened it. That still applies. Corypheus never saw the Golden City because his presence made it black. This is the Fade we're talking about here. There's no reason to believe that the effects of Magister prescience in such a place didn't blacken it immediately.

We do know that the Black City, the only constant in the Fade, was once Golden. But after the Magisters entered it, it became Black. Something definitely changed when the magisters did what the did.

Edit: Semi ninj'd :ph34r:


Two problems I have with believing the Chantry version is that, one: none of the Chantry's scholars or members were there and two: the Chantry has already shown it loves to interpret things to their advantage.

We have a first-hand account saying that the city was already black when they arrived, and makes no mention of any 'Maker' casting him out (something which the Chantry does, extensively). Said first-hand account has no reason to lie to us whatsoever. As much of an evil overlord as Corypheus was, I am far more likely to believe his account on the story here.
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#706
Br3admax

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I said that might be how the gods were locked away, but it's looks like we're fighting an elder god or at least something akin to an elder god in DAI.

Doesn't really change the fact that what you said made no sense. Even if it was just a theory. 



#707
Ryriena

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Doesn't really change the fact that what you said made no sense. Even if it was just a theory.


Ok then.

#708
HK-90210

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Chantry history also get things wrong and could be trying to explain something away by saying the mages mere presence was the cause.

 

What has ever been proven wrong about what the Chantry teachings? Seems to me that their theology is the kind you can either believe or not believe, but incredibly tough to disprove. Like the flying nug noodle soup monster.

 

Religious texts tend to have mild truth to them or symbolism, when they been around for thousand of years.

 

It may be allegory, yes. But that doesn't mean it isn't the truth.

 

 

Religious texts tend to have mild truth to them or symbolism, when they been around for thousand of years. Look at the Life of Jesus for an example, in fact, the bible we've got now have twelve books missing from the official version.

 

Amongst Protestants, yes. Catholics still have them in their bibles. It depends on which Bible you use.

 

Cory never said he caused the city to go black it had been blacken already.

 

This is assuming that there was ever a chance he would see a Golden City in the first place once he got there. You can argue that the magisters being there made it turn Black immediately, or you can argue that the city was Black before they got there. We have proof enough for either scenario. I find the Chantry's version more compelling because:

 

1. It was clearly a Golden city before the magisters entered.

2. The city became Black after the magisters entered.

3. The Darkspawn were unleashed and the First Blight occurred immediately afterwards.

 

These are facts. The ramblings of a half-mad Tevinter magister/darkspawn are not enough to convince me that the Chantry's version is untrue.



#709
Keroko

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1. It was clearly a Golden city before the magisters entered.
2. The city became Black after the magisters entered.
3. The Darkspawn were unleashed and the First Blight occurred immediately afterwards.
 
These are facts. The ramblings of a half-mad Tevinter magister/darkspawn are not enough to convince me that the Chantry's version is untrue.


Facts usually have evidence to prove their validity. 3 has evidence. Do you have evidence for 1 and 2?

#710
SmilesJA

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Kind of scary that people are willing to cheer on someone they claim to like as they spiral further and further downwards  just because they want him to blow up an old woman and start a war.

 

Why are you generalizing people?



#711
HiroVoid

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Facts usually have evidence to prove their validity. 3 has evidence. Do you have evidence for 1 and 2?

#1.  Either the city appeared golden or it wasn't in the fade like it was now before the magisters entered otherwise they wouldn't think it was golden.  I've heard there are other records from other cultures about the city being golden, but I don't have a source for this.

 

#2. The city either changed to forever look black after the magisters entered, or the city that was never in the fade appeared there afterwards.

 

Either way, things changed significantly after the magisters entered.



#712
HK-90210

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Facts usually have evidence to prove their validity. 3 has evidence. Do you have evidence for 1 and 2?

 

1. "The ancient Tevinter magisters said the Fade was the realm of their Old Gods, and the Golden city was the center of the deities' power. It was beautiful then, a metropolis of impossible majesty" - The World of Thedas, Volume 1, pg 141. First page on the subject of the Fade.

 

2. Every single reference to the Black City we have, and "Darkness... ever since." - Corypheus, Dragon Age II, Legacy DLC

 

Edit: And the only evidence that people have the Golden City was corrupted before the magisters arrived are these two lines from Corypheus:

"The light. We sought the golden light. You offered... the power of the gods themselves. But it was... black... corrupt. Darkness... ever since. How long?" and "The City! It was supposed to be Golden! It was supposed to be ours!"

 

He never says it was Black before he got there. How could he know? He knows as much as the Chantry scholars do about what the Golden City was like before his arrival. He cannot say that the Golden City was Black before he showed up. He has no way of knowing. His mere presence changed the golden City. Even he admits that.

 

Sounds to me like those who think the Chantry is wrong need a little more evidence themselves.


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#713
The Hierophant

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Facts usually have evidence to prove their validity. 3 has evidence. Do you have evidence for 1 and 2?

For #1, Corypheus calling it the Golden City would indicate that it's appearance was different in contrast to it's appearance after the magisters entered it. Seriously who would call that mountain of floating garbage that present day Mages and fade entities see constantly a golden city? Something had to have changed it's appearance. Unless for centuries the magisters while in the fade didn't look up (convenient) and see that Dumat was full of it, and or have a different definition of golden than we do.

For #2, even though the GC's appearance was altered i agree that from the little pieces of info we've been given that it's not conclusive that the magisters had corrupted the city. There's too many unknowns surrounding the GC and the event.

#714
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Two problems I have with believing the Chantry version is that, one: none of the Chantry's scholars or members were there and two: the Chantry has already shown it loves to interpret things to their advantage.

We have a first-hand account saying that the city was already black when they arrived, and makes no mention of any 'Maker' casting him out (something which the Chantry does, extensively). Said first-hand account has no reason to lie to us whatsoever. As much of an evil overlord as Corypheus was, I am far more likely to believe his account on the story here.

Yep and there is also that little fact that the Chantry as we know was first made centuries after what happened with the city while Coryp. actually was there.

 

 

This is assuming that there was ever a chance he would see a Golden City in the first place once he got there. You can argue that the magisters being there made it turn Black immediately, or you can argue that the city was Black before they got there. We have proof enough for either scenario. I find the Chantry's version more compelling because:

 

1. It was clearly a Golden city before the magisters entered.

2. The city became Black after the magisters entered.

3. The Darkspawn were unleashed and the First Blight occurred immediately afterwards.

 

These are facts. The ramblings of a half-mad Tevinter magister/darkspawn are not enough to convince me that the Chantry's version is untrue.

More like confused then mad, that guy had been sleeping for centuries after all.

 

I still take the word of one of the guys who did the deed over the Chantry simple because he was there and they were first created centuries after it happened.

 

 

#1.  Either the city appeared golden or it wasn't in the fade like it was now before the magisters entered otherwise they wouldn't think it was golden.  I've heard there are other records from other cultures about the city being golden, but I don't have a source for this.

 

#2. The city either changed to forever look black after the magisters entered, or the city that was never in the fade appeared there afterwards.

 

Either way, things changed significantly after the magisters entered.

There is also the fact in fade things are not always as they appear, maybe the city only looked golden because that's what people it looked like and it reflected that, which could explain why it changed when the magisters arrived they saw it for what really looked like and now the people know the truth they now see it for what it really is.



#715
Ryriena

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For #1, Corypheus calling it the Golden City would indicate that it's appearance was different in contrast to it's appearance after the magisters entered it. Seriously who would call that mountain of floating garbage that present day Mages and fade entities see constantly a golden city? Something had to have changed it's appearance. Unless for centuries the magisters while in the fade didn't look up (convenient) and see that Dumat was full of it, and or have a different definition of golden than we do.

For #2, even though the GC's appearance was altered i agree that from the little pieces of info we've been given that it's not conclusive that the magisters had corrupted the city. There's too many unknowns surrounding the GC and the event.


I only remember him calling it a Blacken City so which dialog did you get that from in legacy. But it's been awhile since I played that DLC, so the dialog he said is a bit fuzzy.

#716
Ryriena

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Yep and there is also that little fact that the Chantry as we know was first made centuries after what happened with the city while Coryp. actually was there.


More like confused then mad, that guy had been sleeping for centuries after all.

I still take the word of one of the guys who did the deed over the Chantry simple because he was there and they were first created centuries after it happened.


There is also the fact in fade things are not always as they appear, maybe the city only looked golden because that's what people it looked like and it reflected that, which could explain why it changed when the magisters arrived they saw it for what really looked like and now the people know the truth they now see it for what it really is.

I agree that things in the fade don't always appear like they do, I mean look at how some of the objects in the broken circle quest in DAO look like bookcases floating. So to some the city might seem golden to others it's black.

#717
The Hierophant

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@Ryriena - Cory's quotes.

"The light. We sought the golden light. You offered... the power of the gods themselves. But it was black... corrupt. Darkness... ever since. How long?"

"The city! It was supposed to be golden! It was supposed to be ours!"



#718
Ryriena

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@Ryriena - Cory's quotes.

"The light. We sought the golden light. You offered... the power of the gods themselves. But it was black... corrupt. Darkness... ever since. How long?"

"The city! It was supposed to be golden! It was supposed to be ours!"

Why does he say that they sought a golden light? That really doesn't prove that he was talking about the city being golden to me it seems to say they were after something entirely different. Just read the other part dumb me lol. However, it might be an illusion type thing going on to get them to enter the fade, as not everything in the fade is, what it appears to be.

#719
HK-90210

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@Ryriena - Cory's quotes.

"The light. We sought the golden light. You offered... the power of the gods themselves. But it was black... corrupt. Darkness... ever since. How long?"

"The city! It was supposed to be golden! It was supposed to be ours!"

 

Yup. Personally, I don't get how people can conclude that the Chantry's version of events is wrong from these two quotes alone.

 

Corypheus never says it was Black before he got there. He only knows that he was expecting a Golden City, and got a corrupt and blackened one. Which fits the Chantry tradition that the presence of the magisters made the city Black.

 

Edit:

^ Read that part afterwards edited my post.

Fair enough. Happens to us all! :D


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#720
Ryriena

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^ Read that part afterwards edited my post.

#721
The Hierophant

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Just like it's not coclusive that the magisters corrupted the city due to a lack of info, there being an illusion involved (old theory of mine) is even more so.
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#722
Ryriena

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Just like it's not coclusive that the magisters corrupted the city due to a lack of info, there being an illusion involved (old theory of mine) is even more so.


Hey stop stealing my theories man that's rude... Also Felmeth I am thinking is going to play a huge part in this game.
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#723
Keroko

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1. "The ancient Tevinter magisters said the Fade was the realm of their Old Gods, and the Golden city was the center of the deities' power. It was beautiful then, a metropolis of impossible majesty" - The World of Thedas, Volume 1, pg 141. First page on the subject of the Fade.
 
2. Every single reference to the Black City we have, and "Darkness... ever since." - Corypheus, Dragon Age II, Legacy DLC
 
Edit: And the only evidence that people have the Golden City was corrupted before the magisters arrived are these two lines from Corypheus:
"The light. We sought the golden light. You offered... the power of the gods themselves. But it was... black... corrupt. Darkness... ever since. How long?" and "The City! It was supposed to be Golden! It was supposed to be ours!"
 
He never says it was Black before he got there. How could he know? He knows as much as the Chantry scholars do about what the Golden City was like before his arrival. He cannot say that the Golden City was Black before he showed up. He has no way of knowing. His mere presence changed the golden City. Even he admits that.
 
Sounds to me like those who think the Chantry is wrong need a little more evidence themselves.


He never says the city changed on his arrival. He's actually surprised that the city wasn't what he expected it to be. Hence "It was supposed to be golden!" The fact that he says "but it was black" instead of "it turned black" shows that it was already so upon his arrival.

"Darkness... ever since" is referring to his slumber, as shown by him following it up with "How.. long!?" as he puts the two and two of the strangely altered deep roads and his sleep together comes to the realization that this wasn't just an afternoon nap.

And of course the Tevinters would believe the city is golden. That's what the Old Gods promised them. A shining golden city with the power of the gods. But note that they are the only ones to claim it was golden prior to the Chantry. The elves, who also had mages and also had lore about a great city, never called it golden.

The Chantry, meanwhile, talks about how the Maker himself personally cast the Tevinter magisters out of his realm (seriously, they even have a sufficiently imposing speech attributed to him in Threnodies 8). Corypheus makes no mention of this. Or any Maker at all, really.
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#724
TheEternalStudent

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He never says the city changed on his arrival. He's actually surprised that the city wasn't what he expected it to be. Hence "It was supposed to be golden!" The fact that he says "but it was black" instead of "it turned black" shows that it was already so upon his arrival.

"Darkness... ever since" is referring to his slumber, as shown by him following it up with "How.. long!?" as he puts the two and two of the strangely altered deep roads and his sleep together comes to the realization that this wasn't just an afternoon nap.

And of course the Tevinters would believe the city is golden. That's what the Old Gods promised them. A shining golden city with the power of the gods. But note that they are the only ones to claim it was golden prior to the Chantry. The elves, who also had mages and also had lore about a great city, never called it golden.

The Chantry, meanwhile, talks about how the Maker himself personally cast the Tevinter magisters out of his realm (seriously, they even have a sufficiently imposing speech attributed to him in Threnodies 8). Corypheus makes no mention of this. Or any Maker at all, really.

While I agree the Chantry embellished certain aspects at least, when i head Corypheus I assumed it was one of those whatever his gaze touched style of things, although the already corrupted theory is valid, I feel more proof is needed.
I wonder if the Qunari have invented time-travel yet?



#725
Dusksworn

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He never says the city changed on his arrival. He's actually surprised that the city wasn't what he expected it to be. Hence "It was supposed to be golden!" The fact that he says "but it was black" instead of "it turned black" shows that it was already so upon his arrival.

"Darkness... ever since" is referring to his slumber, as shown by him following it up with "How.. long!?" as he puts the two and two of the strangely altered deep roads and his sleep together comes to the realization that this wasn't just an afternoon nap.

And of course the Tevinters would believe the city is golden. That's what the Old Gods promised them. A shining golden city with the power of the gods. But note that they are the only ones to claim it was golden prior to the Chantry. The elves, who also had mages and also had lore about a great city, never called it golden.

The Chantry, meanwhile, talks about how the Maker himself personally cast the Tevinter magisters out of his realm (seriously, they even have a sufficiently imposing speech attributed to him in Threnodies 8). Corypheus makes no mention of this. Or any Maker at all, really.

Corypheus makes little mention of anything.

 

He can be leaving out who knows how many details as he vaguely rants about what happened to him. It's not like he was giving an articulate speech describing his time in the Black City.

 

Many people have assumed that the City was black when he got there, but that's not what he says. What he actually says isn't really all too much to go on.

 

He says it was supposed to be golden, and it ended up as black. He doesn't say it was black when he got there. Of course, he doesn't say anything to imply otherwise.

 

We didn't exactly sit him down for tea and have a nice chat with him.