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Why the Chantry is Evil.


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#751
Dusksworn

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Why not? The monotheistic religions spread like wildfire in ours.

Ah yes, but they still had some established history when they did. That probably made things easier.

 

Also, the existence of the prior myth means Andraste could fairly say the Magisters knew what the risk was.



#752
dragonflight288

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WoT, the codex entry on the Dales, your own arguments. Take your pick. 

 

I don't deny there were racial tensions, but where is the actual source that it was racial tensions that started the war? My arguments are that we don't really know. The Chantry says the elves attacked Red Crossing, unprovoked. The elves say that the humans couldn't let them live as they pleased, and sent missionaries, and then templars. The Chantry says that the elves refused all attempts at trade and commerce. The elves say they wanted to live in peace and isolation, away from humans. The Chantry and Orlais say the elves were kidnapping humans as part of heathen sacrifices, something even Anders questions Merrill on. The elves say they don't, and there is no evidence that this ever happened. 

 

But I can see the elves being self-righteous and arrogant, and quite insulting. I can see some radicals on both sides enflaming tensions. Heck, even if we took the events as told by both sides as true leading up to the war, that would mean that neither the elves nor Orlais actually started it, and it may have easily been started by some radical priests and templars who couldn't handle the elves living in a way that wasn't what they believed. Northern Rivain was put to the sword for the exact same reasons, and it was only localized Chantry forces that did it in Rivain itself, but a slaughter was done in the name of the Maker on the heathen there. 

 

I can see some fanatic Petrice type person in Red Crossing wanting to convert the heathen elves, and when missionaries don't work, she sends templars, stirs up the zealots, and like Petrice does to the Qunari of Kirkwall, enflame the tensions and provoke the conflict. 

 

This is all plausible.

 

But I have never, ever, said that we know for sure exactly what happened that truly led up to the conflict, because nothing in the lore outright states what happened. 

 

Sure, I can see racial tensions on both sides boiling over and creating the conflict. I think it is quite likely given the climate. The elves didn't help with the second blight, I'm sure many humans felt slighted and insulted. They worship the creators, and the Chantry specifically teaches that the Maker will only return when the Chant is spread to all corners of the world, so that would rile up the religious zealots, and the Dalish had land that Orlais needed, so the powers that be would want the war as well. And the elves, who are isolationists, would be getting more and more aggravated by constant human harassment, legitimate or otherwise, and would have their own factions. 

 

But there is no real evidence or sources that tell us directly what actually went down, so to say that racial tensions boiling over is what causes the war, while likely, is not provable in the absence of evidence in the lore. 

 

Hence why I asked for a direct source that outright says it. 



#753
dragonflight288

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Ah yes, but they still had some established history when they did. That probably made things easier.

 

Also, the existence of the prior myth means Andraste could fairly say the Magisters knew what the risk was.

 

To be fair, Andraste was calling for a "return to the worship of the Maker." The religion existed before the worship of the Old Gods. That is supposedly why the Maker abandoned his children the first time, because they abandoned him first. 

 

And the second reason was Maferath betraying Andraste. 



#754
Dusksworn

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To be fair, Andraste was calling for a "return to the worship of the Maker." The religion existed before the worship of the Old Gods. That is supposedly why the Maker abandoned his children the first time, because they abandoned him first. 

 

And the second reason was Maferath betraying Andraste. 

Exactly.

 

And the fact that the Tevinters included such beliefs in their own religion means that it wouldn't have been too hard to convince them after the Old Gods started becoming Archdemons.

 

It also means that they would be able to understand that the Magisters knew what blasphemy they were doing in the first place. That's important. The Tevinters weren't able to say that the Magisters didn't know they were going to offend some god they never heard of, because the Tevinters had heard of that god.


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#755
Jedi Master of Orion

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Uh they were in violation if it.

._.

No Qunari in Thedas.

And considering the single Qunari fort in Rivain still exists to the current era it was not the target.

So... Presumably they weren't abiding by the terms of a treaty that came after a international war and died for being stubborn and stupid.

 

It doesn't matter. Slaughtering the Qunari population still violates the treaty.

 

"It's worth noting, however, that the Kingdom of Rivain immediately violated the treaty. Twice. Once, when the humans of northern Rivain—nearly all practitioners of the Qun and therefore by definition, "Qunari"—refused to leave their homes and go in exile to the islands. And again, when the Rivain Chantry and nationalist forces, unable to convert its people back to the worship of the Maker, tried a purge by the sword, slaughtering countless unarmed people and burying them in mass graves. It's a fortunate mystery that the leaders in Kont-aar did not alert their allies in the Northern Passage, or we'd still be fighting the giants now."

 

—From The Exalted Marches: An Examination of Chantry Warfare, by Sister Petrine, Chantry scholar


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#756
HiroVoid

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It doesn't matter. Slaughtering the Qunari population still violates the treaty.

 

"It's worth noting, however, that the Kingdom of Rivain immediately violated the treaty. Twice. Once, when the humans of northern Rivain—nearly all practitioners of the Qun and therefore by definition, "Qunari"—refused to leave their homes and go in exile to the islands. And again, when the Rivain Chantry and nationalist forces, unable to convert its people back to the worship of the Maker, tried a purge by the sword, slaughtering countless unarmed people and burying them in mass graves. It's a fortunate mystery that the leaders in Kont-aar did not alert their allies in the Northern Passage, or we'd still be fighting the giants now."

 

—From The Exalted Marches: An Examination of Chantry Warfare, by Sister Petrice, Chantry scholar

Written by Petrice?  A disreputable source I say. :ph34r:



#757
Jedi Master of Orion

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Written by Petrice?  A disreputable source I say. :ph34r:

 

I almost didn't catch your ninja edit.



#758
Hellion Rex

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Written by Petrice?  A disreputable source I say. :ph34r:

DING DONG, THE WITCH IS DEAD.



#759
HiroVoid

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DING DONG, THE WITCH IS DEAD.

Not in this playthrough. :ph34r:



#760
dragonflight288

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Written by Petrice?  A disreputable source I say. :ph34r:

 

Petrine, that curator in Denerim who is more interested in the truth than the dogma of the religion, and says that her views are sometimes seen as heretical because she sometimes undermines Chantry beliefs in their relics, artifacts, and sometimes their teachings. 



#761
Hellion Rex

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Not in this playthrough. :ph34r:

You are dead to me.


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#762
Jedi Master of Orion

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Or... maybe she faked her death and timed traveled back in time to become Sister Petrine.



#763
dragonflight288

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Or... maybe she faked her death and timed traveled back in time to become Sister Petrine.

 

Did she travel to the future first to get plastic surgery from the Qunari to change her looks, go back in time to learn from Andraste and change her temperament and disregard her care for politics, before going to Denerim?

 

Because that would be awesome. 



#764
Aimi

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Petrine, that curator in Denerim who is more interested in the truth than the dogma of the religion, and says that her views are sometimes seen as heretical because she sometimes undermines Chantry beliefs in their relics, artifacts, and sometimes their teachings.


You're actually talking about Justine. Sister Petrine never physically appears in the games; we only know of her from her Codex writings. Just like good old Philliam, a Bard!

#765
Ryzaki

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Not in this playthrough. :ph34r:

 

Good lord why.

 

Why.

 

It's not even like she gives you anything decent.


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#766
Xilizhra

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Good lord why.

 

Why.

 

It's not even like she gives you anything decent.

I did it once. It can fit if you find the qunari truly repulsive, especially for what they do to mages; the one time I did that, it was on a warrior who couldn't get over the idea of that possibly happening to Bethany.



#767
TheEternalStudent

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I did it once. It can fit if you find the qunari truly repulsive, especially for what they do to mages; the one time I did that, it was on a warrior who couldn't get over the idea of that possibly happening to Bethany.


I've one as well, but he's meant to be something of a xenophobic *******.

#768
Br3admax

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That would never happen to Bethany. Bas Saarebas can't join the Qun. 



#769
Ryzaki

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I did it once. It can fit if you find the qunari truly repulsive, especially for what they do to mages; the one time I did that, it was on a warrior who couldn't get over the idea of that possibly happening to Bethany.

 

Yeah I'm still not buying it. Especially not when Petrice is the one who pretty much threw you under the bus to the Qunari to begin with. As far as my warrior were concerned they both could screw off.

 

That and he wasn't qunari. There wasn't any risk of that happening to Bethany so fanning unnecessary hostilities over that seemed dubious.



#770
TheEternalStudent

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That would never happen to Bethany. Bas Saarebas can't join the Qun.

Why would Hawk know that?

#771
Ryzaki

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That would never happen to Bethany. Bas Saarebas can't join the Qun. 

 

You sure about that? Both Sten and Tallis tell mage PC their role would change little (I guess they forgot about the whole tongue cut out thing).



#772
Br3admax

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Why would Hawk know that?

You learn that in Act I with a mage in the party. 



#773
Br3admax

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You sure about that? Both Sten and Tallis tell mage PC their role would change little (I guess they forgot about the whole tongue cut out thing).

lol, I guess having your mouth sewn shut you being put in a suit of iron and and chained is little. 



#774
Grand Admiral Cheesecake

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Good lord why.

 

Why.

 

It's not even like she gives you anything decent.

 

Because the qunari are awful.

 

I'd rather deal with the fanatic that would just kill me as opposed to the one that would turn me into a brainless slave with their Qamek.


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#775
TheEternalStudent

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You learn that in Act I with a mage in the party.

When?
Shepherd Wolves just has the Qunari ready to explode at the idea of Bas-Sarebas, doesn't mention conversion.