881 réponses à ce sujet

[raging_monkey]

Wouldn't the Circle count as a prison for Bethany?  She was an apostate.

to some the circle is a prison others a santurary.... plus beth went willingly so she was a special cases

[Dusksworn]

the Chantry is no more evil than any other religious orgaization, and significantly less than the Qun.

 

If the Dalish were in a position to enforce their religious practices I imaigne they'd be just as intolerant

Well, they already make it clear that they don't consider you a real elf unless you live like them.

 

Now, as for the Chantry, I would say that the worst part about it is that it's too caught up in Orlais and Orlesian politics.

 

Nothing I have ever heard about Orlais sounded even slightly decent, and I don't believe an honest Chantry should be run from that place.

 

If the Chantry must be run from a central location, it should be from a place relatively free from people who treat political backstabbing as a hobby.

[HiroVoid]

Well, they already make it clear that they don't consider you a real elf unless you live like them.

 

Now, as for the Chantry, I would say that the worst part about it is that it's too caught up in Orlais and Orlesian politics.

 

Nothing I have ever heard about Orlais sounded even slightly decent, and I don't believe an honest Chantry should be run from that place.

 

If the Chantry must be run from a central location, it should be from a place relatively free from people who treat political backstabbing as a hobby.

I nominate Orzammar.

[Dusksworn]

I nominate Orzammar.

That...

 

That doesn't entirely solve the issue, but I guess no place is entirely free from political backstabbings. The problem there is that there's not enough of a supporting population in Orzammar for a Chantry headquarters.

[Chernaya]

In my opinion, the Chantry itself isn't really evil, it's just made by and from imperfect people. I could agree that there are certain aspects of the Chantry that range from morally questionable to evil, but there are also a lot of good things it does. So what I would focus on is not completely destroying it, but eliminating the parts of it that have been corrupted. There's nothing wrong with having a faith and I don't want to take that choice away from people, but I want to stop the people who use it as an excuse for evil acts.

[dragonflight288]

Wouldn't the Circle count as a prison for Bethany?  She was an apostate.

 

Technically. Her room would be in a cell because the Gallows was an ancient prison. 

[zqrahll]

Genocide.

[Helios969]

There is nothing inherently evil about the Chantry (or any such organizations).  In reality the core doctrine of such belief systems are mostly good, however those organizations are made of people...many of whom are zealots which have the capacity to be evil.  They are also made up of a great many "followers" - in the sense of not being able to think for themselves and will just go along on blind faith.  Really you could apply this logic to any large organization across Thedas and in RL (governments, racial groups, religious orders, The Circle) and make an argument for them being evil.  But the reverse is also true; you could make an argument for any of them being good.  The common thread is that they are comprised of people, which are capable of generosity and kindness as well as being close-minded, selfish, and petty.

[Basement Cat]

To continue on the theme of 'the Chantry is made of people'. The Chantry is an organization with a clearly defined hierarchy. It's hard to rise up the ranks without a measure of ambition, manipulation and intelligence. It's pretty easy for someone unscrupulous to rise up to power and thus control the lower ranks making the whole thing seem bad. The problem is that moderates tend not to achieve positions of power because their disposition doesn't get them noticed or even has them deliberately kept out of the way.

[Helios969]

^That can be problematic.

[Keroko]

The Elves started the war. That is not in question. What provoked them into it, is debatable. Either way the Chatnry didn't join the war till the later half of it, and when it was over it was the Chatnry who was solely responsible for the Elven race even survived, as it obligated the human nations to show mercy.
The Chantry has nothing to do with how each individual nation treats the Elves, that is rather a result of the Elves starting the war in the first place (that kind of soured humans' relationship to the Elves).

If the Chantry manipulated the events that started the war from the very beginning, they were involved from the very beginning. They only got 'officially' involved when they could turn themselves into the heroes who saved the world.

Either way, the Chatnry has for over 900 years co-existed with SEVERAL non-Andrastian cultures. Meaning the original point made, is false.

Which ones?

The dwarves? Who's relationship is based on an equilibrium of vital trade rather than acceptance?

The city elves? Treated little better than slaves despite doing everything the Chantry tells them to?

The Dalish? Who will fight the Chantry at every corner and vice versa?

The Chasind? Who are regarded with suspicion and hatred?

The Tevinter? Who have their own, more mage-centred view of the Chant of Light? Leading to four failed exalted marches to try to oust them, and a peace that is tenuous at best?

The qunari? Invaders with whom they fought a war only halted because both sides were rapidly running out of people to fight for? And with whom they have a treaty for which tenuous is a far too kind word?

Missionaries and their protectors does not an invasion warrant.
 
The elves begun a war they could never win.

When said protectors are religious zealots with a known penchant for cutting down things they perceive go against the Chantry though, they are less 'protectors' and more 'invaders.'

I again would like to point out the giant elephant in the room the 'elves started it' faction likes to ignore:

Motive.

The elves have zero motive to start the war. They created an isolationist society that wanted to avoid all contact with humans. Even the Chantry agrees with this, grumbling about how 'emerald knights kept them out'. There is no reason given anywhere for the elves to start their war. Even the Chantry stories go "and suddenly, the mean elves attacked us without reason!"

The Chantry, on the other hand, does have motive for provoking such a war. Not only does their chant demand all follow the belief of the Maker, it also declares everyone worshipping other gods as sinners.

It's very true that the elves went into a war they could never win. Because that's the entire point of the Chantry to start the war in the first place.

Intolerance - Part of the intolerance by all humanity. I also believe an elf in DAII can be a sister while there's a dwarven templar in Last Flight.

Yet they do nothing to reshape such intolerance, despite being in the best position to do so. In some cases they even fuel it.

Imprisonment - Due to abominations and other issues with the whole mage issue.

The mage issue needs to be handled, true. But imprisoning them with permanent pendulums of doom swinging above their heads is not a good way, as we see in the war that's being fought in Inquisition as we speak.

Spewing chant of light - Nothing wrong with being allowed to preach somewhere.

Agreed.

Corruption - Par the course of being a giant establishment with world power....not that it excuses it, but just about every other organization has this.

Also agreed.

Hypocrisy - How does this harm anyone?

Elves, mages and those who refuse the Chantry, mostly. "All are equal in the Maker's eyes. Unless you are a mage, and elf or someone who doesn't believe. And we won't raise a single finger to protect any of those."

Murder - Who are they murdering unjustifiably? Elves were at war with Orlais and the Chantry stopped them from getting slaughtered though it did make the alienages. Qunari are at war with Thedas. Mages are killed as part of the tests to resist demons. I'm in favor of reform for the latter, but they still have to be tested at some point.

The Viscount's son was killed for willingly wanting to convert to the Qun. His conversion could have led to many others converting as well, and that couldn't be allowed. So he was killed, and almost used to frame Hawke and the qunari for it on top of that.

She's a bit sanctimonious if you politely decline saying "How unwise with the battle to come", but nothing bad. In order to get the rude dialogue, I would have to say "Keep your worthless mumblings to yourself.". Might be different with a Dalish.

The first line I had was 'I'm Dwarven kin' though, so I'm guess it's similar there for the Dalish replacing it with an "I don't worship your god, human". Then the next line's the same for both where they can either politely decline or say "Keep your worthless mumblings to yourself."

If I recall, a human can reply with "I don't believe in the maker" or something along those lines, and be called a heathen as well.

[MisterJB]

*Looks at the elves.

*Looks at the chasened.

 

Really now?

There's plenty of evidence suggesting the elves started it or, at least, escalated hostilities and the Chantry has done nothing to the Chasind.

[Basement Cat]

The whole 'Chantry VS Elves' thing reminds me of people who get into bar fights and then claim self defense. It's very possible that the first incident was pretty minor, then someone decided to 'get even', which prompted another retaliation, and so on and so forth and it kept building like a big nasty pimple until it burst and everyone got splashed with foul smelling gunk and a big ugly scar was left.

 

Disgusting image? Well yes. That was the point.

[MisterJB]

So true. 

 

Morrigan: There are no trials for apostates, no prisons. There are only absolutes. 

 

Aneiren: They called me maleficar, run me through and left me for dead.

 

Wynne: He was only a child!

 

Codex entry on apostates: The Chantry and the Templars deliberately blur the line between apostate and maleficar. 

Morrigan is factually wrong in her assertion.

Anders. He became an Apostate seven times and he was brought back every time. Even in DA2, you can send blood mages to the Circle and they'll just be imprisoned.

 

Maybe Aneiren was a maleficar. Who's to say he didn't use blood magic to attack the Templars?

[Ieldra]

"The Chantry is evil" is a generalization I do not subscribe to, and most of its evils are actually the same that would be present, to some degree, in any organization run by real people.

 

However, here's one unique to the Chantry and rather likely the Qun: the most insidious evil in the Chantry is exemplified by the woman you meet in DAO's mage origin, who prays to the Maker in order to be forgiven for the fact she was born with magic.

 

IMO, there is little more despicable than the practice of inducing guilt complexes in people for being what they are, and then offering their ideology up as a way to gain "forgiveness". Of course the Chant is never explicit about this, but that's exactly how the story of the Golden City works. It is made to induce guilt by association in the minds of the mageborn to turn them into obedient little Andrasteans, and that neither physical force nor blood magic is used in this indoctrination process doesn't make it any less despicable. Who needs mind control after all, if a much longer-lasting benefit can be gained through memetic engineering?

 

It doesn't help that as a matter of fact, "the Maker's will" is always the will of those in power, and if necessary, inconvenient historical facts get edited out of the "sacred" texts to make it so. What we have here is an insidious mechanism to gain power over the minds of people. I think it is justified to call it a form of totalitarianism, since once present, it tends to infect and ultimately dominate every aspect of life. 

 

Having said that, I'd take the Chantry over the Qun any day. The Qun pushes all this up to eleven. I rarely feel that something should be eradicated without trace from the face of the Earth (or Thedas, in this case). The Qun qualifies.

[Milan92]

Bloodmages are like The Joker.

 

You catch them, they escape, go insane, catch them, they escape again.

 

Its an endless cycle

[TheKomandorShepard]

"The Chantry is evil" is a generalization I do not subscribe to, and most of its evils are actually the same that would be present, to some degree, in any organization run by real people.

 

However, here's one unique to the Chantry and rather likely the Qun: the most insidious evil in the Chantry is exemplified by the woman you meet in DAO's mage origin, who prays to the Maker in order to be forgiven for the fact she was born with magic.

 

IMO, there is little more despicable than the practice of inducing guilt complexes in people for being what they are, and then offering their ideology up as a way to gain "forgiveness". Of course the Chant is never explicit about this, but that's exactly how the story of the Golden City works. It is made to induce guilt by association in the minds of the mageborn to turn them into obedient little Andrasteans, and that neither physical force nor blood magic is used in this indoctrination process doesn't make it any less despicable. Who needs mind control after all, if a much longer-lasting benefit can be gained through memetic engineering?

 

It doesn't help that as a matter of fact, "the Maker's will" is always the will of those in power, and if necessary, inconvenient historical facts get edited out of the "sacred" texts to make it so. What we have here is an insidious mechanism to gain power over the minds of people. I think it is justified to call it a form of totalitarianism, since once present, it tends to infect and ultimately dominate every aspect of life. 

They rly don't do anything to brainwash mages (at least that would be something) story about golden city (truth) is to point danger that mages represent (what is also truth).I don't see problem here in informing peoples as well mages how dangerous they are and what is price for their flaws not to mention that woman was single example that properly saw magic as curse.
  

[MisterJB]

"The Chantry is evil" is a generalization I do not subscribe to, and most of its evils are actually the same that would be present, to some degree, in any organization run by real people.

 

However, here's one unique to the Chantry and rather likely the Qun: the most insidious evil in the Chantry is exemplified by the woman you meet in DAO's mage origin, who prays to the Maker in order to be forgiven for the fact she was born with magic.

 

IMO, there is little more despicable than the practice of inducing guilt complexes in people for being what they are, and then offering their ideology up as a way to gain "forgiveness". Of course the Chant is never explicit about this, but that's exactly how the story of the Golden City works. It is made to induce guilt by association in the minds of the mageborn to turn them into obedient little Andrasteans, and that neither physical force nor blood magic is used in this indoctrination process doesn't make it any less despicable. Who needs mind control after all, if a much longer-lasting benefit can be gained through memetic engineering?

 

It doesn't help that as a matter of fact, "the Maker's will" is always the will of those in power, and if necessary, inconvenient historical facts get edited out of the "sacred" texts to make it so. What we have here is an insidious mechanism to gain power over the minds of people. I think it is justified to call it a form of totalitarianism, since once present, it tends to infect and ultimately dominate every aspect of life. 

 

Having said that, I'd take the Chantry over the Qun any day. The Qun pushes all this up to eleven. I rarely feel that something should be eradicated without trace from the face of the Earth (or Thedas, in this case). The Qun qualifies.

The Chantry's tenets are not restricted to mages. They always hold that it was the pride and sin of "man", not mages, that displeased the Maker, brough the Bligths and drove Him away. This is evident in many places; for instance, the preacher as you enter Ostagar never mentions mages, only that the Darkspawn are the sins of men made flesh, and "Maker forgive us all" is a common prayer in Andrasteanism. Also, remember that Maferath was a normal person.

That doesn't disprove your point that there is a measure of indocrination involved in their doctrine but that also applies to all in life.

 

There are, of course, aspects of Andrasteanism that focus on magic but they mostly stemm from pragmatism regarding the dangers posed by mages.
 

[lordsaren101]

Why are all of you justifying the chantry's caging of mages, saying mages need to be controlled? A prison with relaxed rules is still a prison. Why are mages being caged? Because of being special and being born with a gift? The chantry has no right to cage anyone. Mages should live as free as anyone else! Most mages would rather live quiet lives in peace.

Many that have become abominations are driven to do so in desperation by the chantry and its templar lackys. How dare any of you point to Tevinter and wag a finger at us over slavery. What your chantry has done with magi is far worse. Tranquility....forced lobotomization, absurd. The chantry has no right.

The mage war was inevitable. You can only cage and corner an ani al for so long. I hope at the end of DAI, the chantry earns its just desserts and ceases to exist. "Where is your maker now?" I can answer the elder ones question...same place he always was...imagination.

[MisterJB]

Why are all of you justifying the chantry's caging of mages, saying mages need to be controlled?

Because mages are dangerous and need to be controlled.

 

Also, Mr. Gaider has said Tevinter Magisters use Tranquility far more often than Templars. They just love the idea of stripping a rival of magic and emotions.

[CapivaRasgor]

One of my two issues with the Chantry is that the main goal of the religion is to have everyone in the world worshipping the Maker and hearing the Chant, regardless if they even want to in the first place. That and the fact that they favour Orlesian interests in political disputes, and no, it’s not because it’s Orlais, burn those masked bastards, etc, etc. I think they should favor neutrality and not do things like having the Templars depose a tyrannical Viscount as a favor from the Divine to hear dearest friend the Emperor, not when did not even lift a finger to help Ferelden when it was under the rule of Arland, another tyrant, or happily turned their heads in the other way when the Rivainis where committing genocide to the Qun converts in their territory. You can’t have two weights and two measures in this kind of thing.

A little off topic but… I’m also surprised at how many people here handwave the “missionary issue” in the Dales. I mean, they kicked out the missionaries once, they come back with escorts, magical knights armed to the teeth kinda of escorts, and that is supposed to be okay? I mean, you kick someone unwelcome out of your house, the next day he’s back with his own private retinue of soldiers in Kevlar and assault rifles, and you genuinely believe that they are no threat? What if you manage to kick them out again, what comes next? The guy will have a tank parked in front of your house with the cannon aiming at it? You guys also forget that elven culture values magic, whilist Chantry dogma condemns it, that in itself is a good reason for the elves not wanting missionaries in their lands in the first place.

And before anyone replies, look… I’m not trying to justify the elves attacking Red Crossing, as the peasants had nothing to do with the issue, or even trying to justify labeling all humanity as monsters as the elves do because of it, but one has to understand why they were pissed of enough to attack.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Why are all of you justifying the chantry's caging of mages, saying mages need to be controlled? A prison with relaxed rules is still a prison. Why are mages being caged? Because of being special and being born with a gift? The chantry has no right to cage anyone. Mages should live as free as anyone else! Most mages would rather live quiet lives in peace.

Many that have become abominations are driven to do so in desperation by the chantry and its templar lackys. How dare any of you point to Tevinter and wag a finger at us over slavery. What your chantry has done with magi is far worse. Tranquility....forced lobotomization, absurd. The chantry has no right.

The mage war was inevitable. You can only cage and corner an ani al for so long. I hope at the end of DAI, the chantry earns its just desserts and ceases to exist. "Where is your maker now?" I can answer the elder ones question...same place he always was...imagination.

 

Because peoples don't want to be killed by power hungry mages or abomnations?Of course they have right to do that as they can crush mages and it is might that makes right.Yeah i saw that quiet lives in peace (legions of power hungry and/or insane blood mages) and and even if some mages want it still they are danger to society.

 

That is poor excuse and don't include even most abomnations it only shows how easily mage can become abomnation when mage will meet hardships that are plenty in life not mention in thedas.
 

Yes mage war was inevitable but only because chantry was incompetent ,ineffective and had barely any control over mages that often did what ever they wanted in circles including blood magic or escaped from them 

 

[EmperorSahlertz]

Why are all of you justifying the chantry's caging of mages, saying mages need to be controlled? A prison with relaxed rules is still a prison. Why are mages being caged? Because of being special and being born with a gift? The chantry has no right to cage anyone. Mages should live as free as anyone else! Most mages would rather live quiet lives in peace.

Many that have become abominations are driven to do so in desperation by the chantry and its templar lackys. How dare any of you point to Tevinter and wag a finger at us over slavery. What your chantry has done with magi is far worse. Tranquility....forced lobotomization, absurd. The chantry has no right.

The mage war was inevitable. You can only cage and corner an ani al for so long. I hope at the end of DAI, the chantry earns its just desserts and ceases to exist. "Where is your maker now?" I can answer the elder ones question...same place he always was...imagination.

Because mages are dangerous, to themselves and everyone around them. They may not wish harm on anyone, but the sad truth is that it may not be up for them to decide. The Demons cares nothing for the wants of the mages, they just want a meatsuit to go crazy in.

 

And Tevinter use the Rite of Tranquility just as often as the rest of Thedas...

 

And you realize that the Tevinter themselves also believe in the Maker, yes? So your little roleplay there is flawed.

[Keroko]

The whole 'Chantry VS Elves' thing reminds me of people who get into bar fights and then claim self defense. It's very possible that the first incident was pretty minor, then someone decided to 'get even', which prompted another retaliation, and so on and so forth and it kept building like a big nasty pimple until it burst and everyone got splashed with foul smelling gunk and a big ugly scar was left.
 
Disgusting image? Well yes. That was the point.

Disgusting, yes, but I'd say that was a very accurate estimation of what went down.
 

Well, they already make it clear that they don't consider you a real elf unless you live like them.

Now, as for the Chantry, I would say that the worst part about it is that it's too caught up in Orlais and Orlesian politics.

Nothing I have ever heard about Orlais sounded even slightly decent, and I don't believe an honest Chantry should be run from that place.

If the Chantry must be run from a central location, it should be from a place relatively free from people who treat political backstabbing as a hobby.

The Chantry was founded in Orlais, by an Orlesian emperor and led by an Orlesian Divine.

Orlais is as deep in the Chantry's blood as you can get. We'd have to rebuild the Chantry from the ground up to get it out of its system.

Hopefully our titel as Herald of Andraste will mean we get to do so in Inquisition.
 

Because mages are dangerous and need to be controlled.

Also, Mr. Gaider has said Tevinter Magisters use Tranquility far more often than Templars. They just love the idea of stripping a rival of magic and emotions.

Tevinter is filled with power-hungry douchebags, news at 11.

In my opinion, mages don't need to be controlled, just guided. Trying to control mages is what got us into the mess that is Inquisition in the first place.

In fact, the Chant of Light itself doesn't support the Circle system either.

"Magic exists to serve man, and never to rule over him.
Foul and corrupt are they
Who have taken His gift
And turned it against His children.
They shall be named Maleficar, accursed ones.
They shall find no rest in this world
Or beyond."

All the chant itself says is "Don't be a douchebag, use your magic to help people rather than lord it over them." It says nothing about mages needing to be controlled. But as always with religious texts, a good portion has chosen to interpret things differently. Fear and paranoia towards mages thanks to decades of Tevinter mage rule then did the rest.

[lordsaren101]

Because mages are dangerous, to themselves and everyone around them. They may not wish harm on anyone, but the sad truth is that it may not be up for them to decide. The Demons cares nothing for the wants of the mages, they just want a meatsuit to go crazy in.

 

And Tevinter use the Rite of Tranquility just as often as the rest of Thedas...

 

And you realize that the Tevinter themselves also believe in the Maker, yes? So your little roleplay there is flawed.

Not everyone believes in the Maker, and my roleplay works just fine for me. Again don't defend your chantry by pointing your finger at someone else. So yes forced slavery at the circle is the right answer....right. The so called pious are the most uncharitable and hypocritical.