881 réponses à ce sujet

[EmperorSahlertz]

Not everyone believes in the Maker, and my roleplay works just fine for me. Again don't defend your chantry by pointing your finger at someone else. So yes forced slavery at the circle is the right answer....right. The so called pious are the most uncharitable and hypocritical. 

The Circle isn't even slavery... I don't think you understand the concept of slavery... The Chantry doesn't own the mages in the Circle. The Circle is actually largely autonomous, they just have to follow the rules. No mage within the Circle is forced to work, and they are all fed and provided for. Hardly the slavery you accuse it of. And I am willing to bet that the Chantry has done more charity, than the magisterium ever did.

[lordsaren101]

The Magisterium does not pretend to be a charitable organization. It makes no excuses as to what it is. The chantry narrowly guards its own oppressive nature and biggotry behind a veil of so called faith. 

 

Circles are autonomous? Yea right. So autonomous that you can be killed simply because some templar gets war wacky. You cannot leave, you are locked inside and cannot leave. Sounds like an amazing existence.

[Xilizhra]

The Circle isn't even slavery... I don't think you understand the concept of slavery... The Chantry doesn't own the mages in the Circle. The Circle is actually largely autonomous, they just have to follow the rules. No mage within the Circle is forced to work, and they are all fed and provided for. Hardly the slavery you accuse it of. And I am willing to bet that the Chantry has done more charity, than the magisterium ever did.

True, the Circle is more "blatantly unjust imprisonment" than slavery per se. As for the Magisterium, well, it keeps the Imperium's infrastructure working; the Imperial Highway is one of the greatest public works ever made and is responsible for both maintaining an amazing (for the tech level) flow of trade and has saved countless lives in the way that it gives people much more freedom to travel in case of a crisis than was ever the case in our world.

 

Now, as for the question. It's not about whether the Chantry is inherently evil; rather, it's whether the Chantry is doing what's right in its policies. As of now, I would ironically say the answer is yes, as they allowed the Circle to secede from it without a fight and are now trying to broker peace between the mages and templars. So, provided they don't try to force the mages back into the fold again, I don't actually have too much of a problem with the Chantry as it stands right now, though a lot of their overall behavior could be better.

[Medhia_Nox]

@Ieldra2:  It's interesting that you read the woman in the chapel of the Circle as being indoctrinated into self-loathing.  

 

I saw her as terrified of herself and what she was capable of doing which caused her self-loathing.  I saw her horror at the concept of demons, becoming an abomination, etc. (though not explicitly stated) as things that horrified her.

 

She doesn't even know about Tranquility.  She's genuinely shocked when you bring up the option - so I'd seriously question how much she knows about what the Chantry says about specifically hating mages.  

 

I extrapolated from that... that DA is stating that, for some mages, being a mage is actually a horrifying experience they don't know how to handle.  That for some mage - good vibes and a hardy dose of book learning - isn't going to do crap.

 

 Which, ultimately I find very refreshing and necessary for people "born into awesome".  Turns out - the writers have been trying to explain this very thing more and more as the world grows and people seem to misunderstand the nature of a mages relationship with magic (less misunderstanding - and more trying to fit it into previous conceptions of magic from other fantasy)

[Xilizhra]

@Ieldra2:  It's interesting that you read the woman in the chapel of the Circle as being indoctrinated into self-loathing.  

 

I saw her as terrified of herself and what she was capable of doing which caused her self-loathing.  I saw her horror at the concept of demons, becoming an abomination, etc. (though not explicitly stated) as things that horrified her.

 

She doesn't even know about Tranquility.  She's genuinely shocked when you bring up the option - so I'd seriously question how much she knows about what the Chantry says about specifically hating mages.  

 

I extrapolated from that... that DA is stating that, for some mages, being a mage is actually a horrifying experience they don't know how to handle.  That for some mage - good vibes and a hardy dose of book learning - isn't going to do crap.

 

 Which, ultimately I find very refreshing and necessary for people "born into awesome".  Turns out - the writers have been trying to explain this very thing more and more as the world grows and people seem to misunderstand the nature of a mages relationship with magic (less misunderstanding - and more trying to fit it into previous conceptions of magic from other fantasy)

She uses way too much religious doggerel for her to simply fear and hate herself without prompting, and if the Chantry was any good at its job, they'd have taught her not to do so. In any case, no one else seems horrified at all, including those mages significantly younger than she, who just act like regular kids.

[AlexiaRevan]

I don't have quotes or links for you . But I tell you what I think . 

 

Is the chantry Evil ? 

That is hard to say . First define what's evil . Is it Evil by real life standar ? As in it is an organization that use religion to spread and feed lies and hope in exchange of followers . Only if you are anti-religion and think the whole thing is a scam . Even if you are not anti-religion , you may be against such organisation because it doesn't sit well with your own belief . 

A): It isn't evil , as in it won't ask for your first born as a sacrifice to the maker . But it is dishonest in using hope and maybe even lie . But it's not an evil entity . 

 

What about the way the Chantry spread it wings ? Stepping on others religion , discarding them and forcing the Maker left and right ? 

A) That is an issue . Is it evil though ? Yes , it's evil in the sense that if you refuse or declar not to want it , they probably wage war and force you into it . 

A) It also clear that , their belief make them willing to take your free will away if they have to , so you can be saved . They are in the position of : IF you don't , you are a Sin , and as long as one sin remain..none of us will be saved . Therefor , I may just drag you myself kicking and screaming if I have to . For this is bigger then one individuality . And THAT is evil . There is willingly giving up your free will for the greater good and having it taken away from you by force . The willingly is a free choice , the taken by force even if for the greater good is still an evil action . For Free will is a gift of the Maker that they shouldn't take away no matter what . 

 

The Chantry created the Templar to oppress the Mage so a Tevinter Empire would never rise again . The Tevinter is EVIL , don't you think the end justify the mean ?

A) The fact that you have to resort into creating monster to defeat greatest monster , doesn't make you a hero . At least , usually peoples will point out you are no better if you use the same means to achieve what you want . 

A) IF you are in a position of power and you cannot find better means then shakling a bunch of peoples for the greater good , I really recommand retiring from the Job . For it doesn't come off as 'But that's the best I could do' But more like 'Muh Power is too good , don't have time or the will to find a better solution , and so far it is only a minoritee that suffer , the mass on the other hand abide by it and none is whining' . 

A) The end never justify the mean . An animal would attack a greater predator to protect its childrens . Yet humans , take the easiest road open , then brush it under the carpet as 'Couldn't do any better' . One who give up so fast , shouldn't be in charge . One who use mortality , shouldn't be in charge . If you can't find a solution during your life time , then make sure those who come afterward (the next generation) continue in looking for one , until it's found . But instead , they stick with one crappy system and enforce it and when it doesn't work , the blames are thrown everywhere but at it origins and how and why it all started as shaky . 

 

The Tevinter is EVIL! IF Mage are free they will do the same !

A) Would they ? what guarantee is there that they would . And how do you justify that you are Judging a whole generation that may have no tie to the Tevinter the same way ? 

A) All humans are capable of Evil . Yes they may not turn into abomination , but dead is dead . Killing an innocent is still the same in both situation . Why would one innocent death be more tragic because he was struck by a Blood Mage then an innocent gutted by a Pirate ? Both innocents would end up dead . Why there would be more emphasis on one innocent dead then the others ? 

A) Enslaving peoples because of what they MAY DO never solve anything . It certainly doesn't take away the fear that eat your heart . Doubt will always be there . Using such exuses usually make them true . Because like it or not , oppressing under the exuse of WHAT IF usually make the oppressed lash out . And he lash out because YOU PUT HIM in that position . So wash your incrdulous look and drop the accusatory finger and don't say I TOLD YA SO . Since everything one do has consequences . A circle mage with rebelling mages is and could just be a reaction to evil means used wrong . 

A) And if the Tevinter is evil.....then by all mean . Instead of using barbaric mean to avoid it . I would recommand to study it , study the core of the evil that it was . Then , learn to recognize those who would fit and have those tendancie . Do not put a group together and judge them as ONE . For it is neither fair or right . 

 

The Chantry DO Good . It feed peoples , it protect peoples , it stand as a wall of rightousness and fight any threath that want to destroy the life of the commun folks . 

A) It is an hypocrite institute . It has corpse down in the dungeon , while showing the 'commun' folk that clean and sin free face . 

A) Those who enjoy the GOOD aren't everyone . Elf do NOT . Their fate doesn't gain them any privilége . Yet the chantry take it anyway and doesn't give them what they should give them . What they give to the commun folk isn't given to the city elf . Same treatement , same privilége , same safety , same stability , the same protection , same love , same food , same rights . 

A) You can be rightouss when you do not do any sin of any kind . You can be GOOD when you bestow the good EVERYWHERE . Not just on a group and do Evil on another . 

A) Nobody deny that the Chantry stand as a protecting wall . But for one : It put it self in that position therefor it willingly took on the job , so do not whine for it was not forced . And second : Yes , it awesomness can be easely discarded for not everyone enjoy it . 

A) Either do it right or don't do it at all . 

 

It is not fair to blame the Chantry for the actions of a few Templars !! 

A) Actually it is . The chantry MADE the templar . The chantry gave and fed the templar it purpose . They are guilty of the sins of their offspring they gave birth to . 

 

But Elthina for exemple couldn't do squat against Meredith , it doesn't work like that !! She had to fax the Devine and wait for an answer...etc. 

A) She still had authority . She still could do something beyond waiting for a miracle to drop from the Sky . As a priestess , one would assume her skill in preaching would come in handy . Talking can do wonder when you know what to say . She had a church filled with priestess that she could've sent to be her ear and eyes , and see for herself how things are going . Her inaction were an offence . 

 

Anders is the real culprit ! He Bombed the Chantry ! Killed INNOCENTS Peoples and Forced a War ! 

A) Anders was done waiting , and he certainly seemed done with the different circle negotiating over and over when he wanted TRUE Freedom . No more shackles , no more fear . be free or die trying . Yes it's extreme . But when you are in the oppressed shoes..........what would you have done ? Negotiate ? how that give you your freedom back ? It won't . War was inevitable , Anders just made sure there is no going back . 

 

But some peoples Lived their whole life in the circle ! Wynn and others , know the circle was good . It gave them safety , it gave them food and a shelter that some commun folk could  dream about only . 

A) One mage successfuly raising in rank . Doesn't mean the system is good . One man beating a deadly illness doesn't mean everyone who get it will make it . 

A) You still missing the point . Peoples value their freedom above everything and it is how it should be . No roof or food could satiate the carving one can get from being locked up . Even if one cell is made of Gold . It is still a prison . 

A) And look at Wynn and those who are like her . They had 'right' and 'privilége' to go and do things without a heavy escort . But were they truly trusted ? Did they gain anything like the right to have relationship..have more of a normal life due to their trust in the system ? Why weren't they rewarded at all for being good mages for years ? . The answer is simple: There is no reward , EVER for good behavior . They will let you roam without templars tagging along with you . But the circle system is made that you are a monster till you die . This title will never be taken away . And that's what make it wrong . 

 

This is insane! You want to make the Mage free to do as they please ?!?! 

A) No . I want the mage to teach their own . I want the circle to be free from the eyes of the chantry and the oppressive hand of the Templar . I want the Mage to be the one who run their prisons . It is better to be judged by one like you....then to be judged by one who isn't like you . For the one who is like you....will judge you and will show you mercy for he is like you . The one who judge you and isn't like you......will show you a mercy that is not real mercy , it is a mercy to the world but not to you . 

 

You want to dissolve the Templar ?? 

A) The Templar existance is a sin in it heart . It was build as a necessity , and it is corrupt . It is far worse then any mage born with magic . For a mage curse come from a Maker . The Templar curse is human made . And to me , it is worse . Mage didn't ask for their curse , and must live with it . Templar are willingly getting cursed for a cause....that is more horrifying to me . 

 

And the chantry ? 

A) The chantry must change or be forgotten . Love all...no matter who they are or where they come from , or be destroyed . You cannot claim the key to the heavens.....and allow only a handful to go in . None should . Create buandery and tend to those who follow , but do not step on others toes . For they have the right to fight back . 

 

And I stop here....

[TheKomandorShepard]

The Magisterium does not pretend to be a charitable organization. It makes no excuses as to what it is. The chantry narrowly guards its own oppressive nature and biggotry behind a veil of so called faith. 

 

Circles are autonomous? Yea right. So autonomous that you can be killed simply because some templar gets war wacky. You cannot leave, you are locked inside and cannot leave. Sounds like an amazing existence.

I will have to see such example in fact mages in circles or rather KE have control over circle when KE supervises irving had power in circle.Most mages don't complain in fact they have a lot better lives than majority peoples in thedas as they live in a very luxurious conditions.

 

Pretty much this is why so many mages in circles are corrupted and have easy access to blood magic.

[lordsaren101]

Most mages don't complain because they know to do so is to face death or lobotomization. Stop rationalizing bad behavior. 

[TheKomandorShepard]

Most mages don't complain because they know to do so is to face death or lobotomization. Stop rationalizing bad behavior. 

Eee you know libertarians they complain a lot and they have right to vote still they are alive most other mages sticks with chantry and see them as their chance.It is not bad behavior it is simple measures to survive they may not be nice but well in real life that was, is and will be in case as well.

 

Pretty much nothing more than pro-mage propaganda to paint how mages are horrible abused what isn't in case for most of time.  

[lordsaren101]

Anyone who is imprisoned forcibly against their will is ABUSED. 

[TheKomandorShepard]

Anyone who is imprisoned forcibly against their will is ABUSED. 

Well then our society abuse peoples as well because we lock up criminals not mention other incidents.Deal with it that is reality peoples do not nice things for benefit and own safety.  

[TTTX]

They rly don't do anything to brainwash mages (at least that would be something) story about golden city (truth) is to point danger that mages represent (what is also truth).
  

The story about the Golden city seems to be only partially true, according to Cryp's (the old magister from the legacy DLC who was one of the people who did the deed) the city was already black by the time they arrived, which indicates the city isn't what the Chantry thinks it is.

[Mistic]

One of my two issues with the Chantry is that the main goal of the religion is to have everyone in the world worshipping the Maker and hearing the Chant, regardless if they even want to in the first place. That and the fact that they favour Orlesian interests in political disputes, and no, it’s not because it’s Orlais, burn those masked bastards, etc, etc. I think they should favor neutrality and not do things like having the Templars depose a tyrannical Viscount as a favor from the Divine to hear dearest friend the Emperor, not when did not even lift a finger to help Ferelden when it was under the rule of Arland, another tyrant, or happily turned their heads in the other way when the Rivainis where committing genocide to the Qun converts in their territory. You can’t have two weights and two measures in this kind of thing.

 

Truth be told, those two are the main problems I see with the Chantry.

 

Even if the Chantry was full of wonderful people, the theology behind the Chant and the return of the Maker is disturbing. It makes salvation for the world impossible to achieve unless there is total conversion. That means that it puts the blame and the responsibility on those "further from the Maker". Even the most faithful won't be able to see the Maker's return unless the heathens don't sing the Chant.

 

Of course, it doesn't mean that peaceful conversion isn't accepted nor that conversion by the sword is more desirable. Also, people like Sebastian and Leliana (although in the later case she was looked down on by the orthodox) have suggested a shortcut: that other religions are already worshipping the same divine force, yet they call it by other names. There's still the problem of the atheists, but that would be more than enough compromise for a medieval religion. Changing the Chant of Light is also feasible. After all, it was done back in the day to erase Shartan from the records.

 

As for the Orlesian bias, it's true, but it's more of a human problem; it depends on the decisions of the people that are part of the Chantry, not a matter of ideology or organization. Quoting the Monty Python, it's not "inherent in the system".

[TheKomandorShepard]

The story about the Golden city seems to be only partially true, according to Cryp's (the old magister from the legacy DLC who was one of the people who did the deed) the city was already black by the time they arrived, which indicates the city isn't what the Chantry thinks it is.

As i said many times revelant part sticks no matter what was color city was mages went there and brought darkspawn what is an excellent example what mess mages can do what is true.Mages went there in their power hunger and caused another of many disasters that is chantry point that is nothing more than truth.  

[lordsaren101]

As i said many times revelant part sticks no matter what was color city was mages went there and brought darkspawn what is an excellent example what mess mages can do what is true.Mages went there in their power hunger and caused another of many disasters that is chantry point that is nothing more than truth.  

Your divine and corrupt clergy are more power hungry than any being on Thedas. the chantry seeks to dominate all life with its wicked and putrid faith. Salvation through oppression. How lovely.

[lordsaren101]

The chantry claims Tevinter is corrupt, decadent and maddened with power. Those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. How many exalted marches have been called for innumerable reason because the chantry wanted more power and control. How many dead have they left in their wake. The chantry is worse than any blight. 

[KoorahUK]

Anyone who is imprisoned forcibly against their will is ABUSED. 

I'm afraid you have a very simplistic view of things my friend.

The Circles need reform and the the more zealous Templars bought into line, I doubt many on the pro-Templar side woudl argue that, but can we stop pretending that Mages pose no threat to those around them?

They are immensley powerful and are capable of being used by demons to bring utter horror to the lives of the normal population, often without the power to resist no matter how much you "educate" them. The last time mages lived unchecked brought around the First Inquisition, when the general population, tired of being terrorised and oppressed by power mad mages, rose against them. It was the intervention of the Chantry and the Navarran Accord that brought about the end of the Inquisition and the birth of the Seekers, The Tempars and The Circles - in this way the Chantry sought to protect mages who had proven they could not be trusted to restrain their powers and live amongst the general population. 

900 years later things need a shake up but please take off the rose tinted spectacles about why this happened in the first place.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Your divine and corrupt clergy are more power hungry than any being on Thedas. the chantry seeks to dominate all life with its wicked and putrid faith. Salvation through oppression. How lovely.

Not mine divine because im not big fan of the chantry myself for other reasons.To the point i never heard divine or clergy creating blight or mess like mages cause.Chantry is just another human organization only thing alarming about them is their incompetence that harms society... 

 

Pretty much as everyone else and im rather sure they don't oppress peoples only other peoples oppress other peoples in their society.
 
  

[lordsaren101]

I'm afraid you have a very simplistic view of things my friend.

The Circles need reform and the the more zealous Templars bought into line, I doubt many on the pro-Templar side woudl argue that, but can we stop pretending that Mages pose no threat to those around them?

They are immensley powerful and are capable of being used by demons to bring utter horror to the lives of the normal population, often without the power to resist no matter how much you "educate" them. The last time mages lived unchecked brought around the First Inquisition, when the general population, tired of being terrorised and oppressed by power mad mages, rose against them. It was the intervention of the Chantry and the Navarran Accord that brought about the end of the Inquisition and the birth of the Seekers, The Tempars and The Circles - in this way the Chantry sought to protect mages who had proven they could not be trusted to restrain their powers and live amongst the general population. 

900 years later things need a shake up but please take off the rose tinted spectacles about why this happened in the first place.

I wear no rose tinted spectacles. You have no right to imprison anyone who has done nothing. The templars are vile and lyrium addled addicts. Their mental capacity to make any judgement or hold anyone prisoner is an absurd farce. 

 

You cling to your pithy chantry and foolish chant as if that can keep the evil boogeymen away, it cant. It is the boogeyman.

 

Any organization that supports children being taken from their families and sent into seclusion in a dusty old tower, simply because they have an exceptional talent, is an evil organization and it is rotten.

 

But alas, clearly this back and forth goes nowehere. so I bow out....for now/

[lordsaren101]

Your justifying a millenia of oppression. That would be like condemning modern Greece because Alexander conquered and occupied much of the known world.

[TheTurtle]

I wear no rose tinted spectacles. You have no right to imprison anyone who has done nothing. The templars are vile and lyrium addled addicts. Their mental capacity to make any judgement or hold anyone prisoner is an absurd farce.

You cling to your pithy chantry and foolish chant as if that can keep the evil boogeymen away, it cant. It is the boogeyman.

Any organization that supports children being taken from their families and sent into seclusion in a dusty old tower, simply because they have an exceptional talent, is an evil organization and it is rotten.

Is this a bit?

[TheKomandorShepard]

I wear no rose tinted spectacles. You have no right to imprison anyone who has done nothing. The templars are vile and lyrium addled addicts. Their mental capacity to make any judgement or hold anyone prisoner is an absurd farce. 

 

You cling to your pithy chantry and foolish chant as if that can keep the evil boogeymen away, it cant. It is the boogeyman.

What is right or wrong is up to individual templars , chantry and most of human populations see circles as "right" you may think differently but there is no right or wrong outside individual head.Simple humans do what is convenient not right or wrong.

 

 

Your justifying a millenia of oppression. That would be like condemning modern Greece because Alexander conquered and occupied much of the known world.

I don't have to that simple as i said peoples do not nice things to other creatures to survive that is how world works and will work as long humans exist like it or not.

[dragonflight288]

Anyone who is imprisoned forcibly against their will is ABUSED. 

 

Is the same true for criminals and those who abuse their power to harm others, whether out of a sick sense of sadism or personal power or wealth? Wouldn't imprisoning those people against their will actually be doing the world a favor?

[TTTX]

As i said many times revelant part sticks no matter what was color city was mages went there and brought darkspawn what is an excellent example what mess mages can do what is true.Mages went there in their power hunger and caused another of many disasters that is chantry point that is nothing more than truth.  

That's the world of DA, besides mages are at the end of the day needed they are the only ones who can outside demons and spirits who can heal the veil Tears appear, they also make Grey Wardens and such things and what happened with the old magisters was because of their greed and not because of their magic, the magic was merely the tool they used to get to their goal. Magic is a tool, nothing more, nothing less.

 

 

The chantry claims Tevinter is corrupt, decadent and maddened with power. Those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. How many exalted marches have been called for innumerable reason because the chantry wanted more power and control. How many dead have they left in their wake. The chantry is worse than any blight. 

No a blight is worse then anything in Thedas, the Darkspawn corrupts the very ground they walk on and kill everything that haven't been corrupted

 

Your justifying a millenia of oppression. That would be like condemning modern Greece because Alexander conquered and occupied much of the known world.

I'm a promage, but I even I know mages need a place to get educated or else bad things happen and some people would be more then happy to kill mages because of the danger they posses or because of superstition like a bad harvest have happened and the blame the mage with magic for it.

[lordsaren101]

Is the same true for criminals and those who abuse their power to harm others, whether out of a sick sense of sadism or personal power or wealth? Wouldn't imprisoning those people against their will actually be doing the world a favor?

Children stolen from their parents and locked up is alot different than a war criminal....Just wow.