881 réponses à ce sujet

[KoorahUK]

The chantry claims Tevinter is corrupt, decadent and maddened with power. Those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. How many exalted marches have been called for innumerable reason because the chantry wanted more power and control. How many dead have they left in their wake. The chantry is worse than any blight. 

How Many? None.

• First Exhaulted March against Tevinter - Led by Andraste herself before the Chantry even existed this was rebellion against Imperial Oppression.
• Second Exhaulted March against The Dalish - Only called after The Dalish sacked Val Royeaux.
• Third Exhaulted March against Starkhaven - The Imperium betrayed and conquered Starkhaven in an attempt to expand their empire into the Free Marches. The Chantry objected.
• Four more Marches against Tevinter following the schism
• Three against he Qunari after they invaded and conquered many areas of thedas, including Tevinter the Chanty's old enemies. 

None of those are to gain power or control, all of them were to deal with threats to the Andrastian peoples of Thedasn the Chantry serves. 

 

[EmperorSahlertz]

True, the Circle is more "blatantly unjust imprisonment" than slavery per se. As for the Magisterium, well, it keeps the Imperium's infrastructure working; the Imperial Highway is one of the greatest public works ever made and is responsible for both maintaining an amazing (for the tech level) flow of trade and has saved countless lives in the way that it gives people much more freedom to travel in case of a crisis than was ever the case in our world.

Its a sad world we live in when people equate public work, with charity.............

[KoorahUK]

Children stolen from their parents and locked up is alot different than a war criminal....Just wow.

These would be the Children that could throw a tantrum and burn you to ashes by accident? Or be possesed by a demon leading to the deaths or terrorisation of many others, because they have no training, protection or support with which to fight back? Those children? 

[dragonflight288]

 

 

I'm a promage, but I even I know mages need a place to get educated or else bad things happen and some people would be more then happy to kill mages because of the danger they posses or because of superstition like a bad harvest have happened and the blame the mage with magic for it.

 

Agreed. The mage origin in DAO clearly shows that unless mages can control their emotions while using their powers, like the mage using the flame, the magic will lash out if they can't control it. 

 

The flames reacted to his emotions, and when he started panicking, the fire went out of control and he set himself on fire. 

Wynne says that when she was a kid, she accidentally lit a bully's head on fire. 

That mage learning the shield spell had to have it emphasized that fear is his enemy, and demons would use his fear against him, so he had to strengthen his will and stand firm against anything that could be thrown against him. 

 

Not to mention Connor. Had an incompetent tutor, was kept out of the Circle because it would mean the family would lose their son, and heir, forever since he would be forbidden from holding a title and be forced to live in the Circle. And then in desperate ignorance, made a deal with a demon that wrecked havoc on the village of Redcliff. 

 

Mages need a place to learn how to control and master their powers, as well as learn how to resist demons. But I don't see why they have to remain locked up after they learn how to control their powers and have passed the Harrowing.

[dragonflight288]

Children stolen from their parents and locked up is alot different than a war criminal....Just wow.

 

I know. But simply saying anyone who is locked up against their will is a form of abuse is a blanket statement that doesn't differentiate between innocent and guilty. 

[TheKomandorShepard]

That's the world of DA, besides mages are at the end of the day needed they are the only ones who can outside demons and spirits who can heal the veil Tears appear, they also make Grey Wardens and such things and what happened with the old magisters was because of their greed and not because of their magic, the magic was merely the tool they used to get to their goal. Magic is a tool, nothing more, nothing less.

Not rly as far only thing that mages are rely required is joining and it is still mess they have caused.Demons and spirit in thedas are mostly because of mages and no they are last peoples you want fight demons unless you are such kind individual that you want help demons by giving them power up also we know only inq can fix veil so nope.Also completly not true it happened because they had magic if they didn't all they could do is exploit others as leaders at worst so yes magic is a tool that allows them to cause disasters. 

[TheKomandorShepard]

Mages need a place to learn how to control and master their powers, as well as learn how to resist demons. But I don't see why they have to remain locked up after they learn how to control their powers and have passed the Harrowing.

Because that mage passed the harrowing doesn't mean that they won't become abomnation or aren't dangerous? We saw plenty mages after harrowing that were corrupted and danger to society such like uldred , orsino or anders and a lot more.

[dragonflight288]

Because mage passed the harrowing doesn't mean that they won't become abomnation or aren't dangerous? We saw plenty mages after harrowing that were corrupted and danger to society such like uldred , orsino or anders and a lot more.

 

The Harrowing does not stop a mage from accepting a deal with a demon down the line, the Harrowing fails at this entirely, true.

 

But it does show that a mage can resist a demon trying to trick letting him in, or force the issue. 

[TheTurtle]

Taking children who show a bit of magic isn't something I'm bothered by. It's like accidental magic from Harry Potter on steriods with a chance of being possessed thrown in for extra fun.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Mages need a place to learn how to control and master their powers, as well as learn how to resist demons. But I don't see why they have to remain locked up after they learn how to control their powers and have passed the Harrowing.

Because there is no certainty to be had. Once a mage has learned to control his abilities, does not mean he is immune to possession or even just corruption. The threat a mage pose is simply too big. Then of course there is also the fact that many mages chose to stay in the Circle, because it is the only place they can actually practice their arts in peace, and have resoruces readily available to them.

 

You don't see a lot of proffessors working outside of universities, and other academies, either after all. That is simply because these places provide the resources and facilities to help further the research. The Circle are the same, with the added bonus of security from prejudiced masses.

[KoorahUK]

Because that mage passed the harrowing doesn't mean that they won't become abomnation or aren't dangerous? We saw plenty mages after harrowing that were corrupted and danger to society such like uldred , orsino or anders and a lot more.

Very valid point. The Harrowing proves mages are capable of resisting the temptations of the fade. Its no guarantee that will always be the case or they won't be corrupted by more mundane matters, changing political views, a power hungry and manipulative lover - the list goes on. 

[TheKomandorShepard]

The Harrowing does not stop a mage from accepting a deal with a demon down the line, the Harrowing fails at this entirely, true.

 

But it does show that a mage can resist a demon trying to trick letting him in, or force the issue. 

That is not completely true as far it looked like luck based test that you face 1 demon doesn't mean you can handle another after all each demon uses different
weaknesses and differ in terms of power.Pretty much wynne couldn't even know that she is in the fade under demon control.

 

And in the end as you and i said mage still can be possessed on way or another and there is also fuct that even without demon mage can cause big mess or disaster like zathrian or quentin.

[Keroko]

The Circle isn't even slavery... I don't think you understand the concept of slavery... The Chantry doesn't own the mages in the Circle. The Circle is actually largely autonomous, they just have to follow the rules. No mage within the Circle is forced to work, and they are all fed and provided for. Hardly the slavery you accuse it of. And I am willing to bet that the Chantry has done more charity, than the magisterium ever did.

The only reason mages aren't forced to work is because the Chantry prefers they'd just stay locked in their towers for the rest of their lives. Recall the first time you meet Alistair. He was send, by the revered mother, to antagonize the mages. Because said revered mother was upset that the king himself had asked for the mages.

I will have to see such example in fact mages in circles or rather KE have control over circle when KE supervises irving had power in circle.Most mages don't complain in fact they have a lot better lives than majority peoples in thedas as they live in a very luxurious conditions.

Pretty much this is why so many mages in circles are corrupted and have easy access to blood magic.

There's a difference between "being happy" and "having accepted your lot in life."

Sure, there are some mages who were content with the way things went. Those who enjoy studying magic and are good at it.

But there are many more who don't. The mage-templar war would never have started if the majority of the mages were content with their lives.

Well then our society abuse peoples as well because we lock up criminals not mention other incidents.Deal with it that is reality peoples do not nice things for benefit and own safety.

Ah, yes, but we don't lock up people just because they're born with a certain ability that someone else once misused.

Criminals in our society are locked up when they're caught planning, committing or having committed a crime. Not the moment they're born.

Now the Circle idea is not a terribly bad one at its core. An organization where young children can be taught to use their powers to avoid being a danger for those around them and instead use those powers to help other people.

Kind of like the Jedi order.

It's the whole imprisonment in a tower for the rest of your life with extremely little contact with your family (what was it again? Three times a year? Even our prisoners get more than that) and the eternal threat of being killed or turned tranquil the moment you even look like you're slipping up that needs to be fixed.

Rivain had the right idea. Circle members there had much more autonomy, were able to visit their families, combined the Circle with their own magical tradition of seers and had no templar guards to speak of. And all of this went well, their society having no noted mage-related problems ever since it's foundation -69 ancient.

Yet, they were all killed during the Annulment in 9:40. The reason? Rivain didn't follow the Chantry's orders regarding Circles to the letter. Therefore they were heretics and had to be purged.

[KoorahUK]

Funny, I came into this thread as a player that had been quite borderline anti-Chantry in the previous games, but I'm now pro-Templar. 

 

That is what debate is all about

[Keroko]

Funny, I came into this thread as a player that had been quite borderline anti-Chantry in the previous games, but I'm now pro-Templar. 
 
That is what debate is all about

Opposite here, I was a templar defender but during the many, many debates I learned just how much the mages were pushed and pushed over the edge ever since the Circle system was created.

Debates are fun that way.

[TTTX]

Not rly as far only thing that mages are rely required is joining and it is still mess they have caused.Demons and spirit in thedas are mostly because of mages and no they are last peoples you want fight demons unless you are such kind individual that you want help demons by giving them power up also we know only inq can fix veil so nope.Also completly not true it happened because they had magic if they didn't all they could do is exploit others as leaders at worst so yes magic is a tool that allows them to cause disasters. 

Death and misery can cause the veil weaken even disapear as we know happened in the forest in DA:O which causes spirits and the like to posses corpses trees and such. What the Inq heals are Rifts not Tears there is a difference between the two and we have seen mages heal the veil during the course of DA:O in DLC like Wich Hunt and Warden headquarters.

 

So does poison, swords and bunch of other stuff in Thedas, magic also does good stuff

[EmperorSahlertz]

The only reason mages aren't forced to work is because the Chantry prefers they'd just stay locked in their towers for the rest of their lives. Recall the first time you meet Alistair. He was send, by the revered mother, to antagonize the mages. Because said revered mother was upset that the king himself had asked for the mages.

I'm sure you have indisputable proof of your wild accusations, you just choose to withhold it, for the safety of the forum's sake, yes?

 

That one revered mother, had to REQUEST the presence of mages, seems to suggest that lo and behold, the Chatnry does not actually own the mages.... Huh... Who would have thunk it, eh?

[ComedicSociopathy]

This whole thread is pointless and won't go anywhere.

 

If you're going to have a debate about whether the Chantry is evil, using examples and evidence from the DA media, then everyone within the debate needs to have a common, straight-forward and homogeneous definition of evil in the first place. If not, then the debate will just become one where everyone debates what is evil in the first place. 

 

Unfortunately, finding the definition or undeniable criteria for what makes something evil is going to be impossible because evil is a subjective term that only exists objectively in DnD alignment charts. And even in that example people still argue what's the difference between Lawful Neutral and Lawful Evil.

 

Furthermore, saying that an entire organization is either evil or good is well...stupid. Organizations are made out of people with their own ambitions, goals, ethics and interpretations of their organizations teachings. Just look at the ideological disparities between Leliana and Sister Petrice and you start to understand where I'm coming from here. 

 

So, yeah, if were really going to have this debate lets all hammer out what the hell we all mean by evil first before we attach the term to the Chantry.

 

For me personally, evil is an outwardly destructive act that serves no practical, pragmatic or humane purposes besides entertaining the sadism of one's own self. For example, killing Connor only because you really want an opportunity to kill a child or killing the Dalish because you really want to have fun jacking to werewolves murdering forest elves. 

[KoorahUK]

I'm sure you have indisputable proof of your wild accusations, you just choose to withhold it, for the safety of the forum's sake, yes?

 

That one revered mother, had to REQUEST the presence of mages, seems to suggest that lo and behold, the Chatnry does not actually own the mages.... Huh... Who would have thunk it, eh?

Also, I had thought that the reason a Templar was sent was that the Reverend Mother thought the mage was ... a bit of a d*ck.

Which he was. 

He certainly didn't seem oppressed or a slave to me. 

[TheKomandorShepard]

There's a difference between "being happy" and "having accepted your lot in life."

Sure, there are some mages who were content with the way things went. Those who enjoy studying magic and are good at it.

But there are many more who don't. The mage-templar war would never have started if the majority of the mages were content with their lives.


Ah, yes, but we don't lock up people just because they're born with a certain ability that someone else once misused.

Criminals in our society are locked up when they're caught planning, committing or having committed a crime. Not the moment they're born.

Now the Circle idea is not a terribly bad one at its core. An organization where young children can be taught to use their powers to avoid being a danger for those around them and instead use those powers to help other people.

Kind of like the Jedi order.

It's the whole imprisonment in a tower for the rest of your life with extremely little contact with your family (what was it again? Three times a year? Even our prisoners get more than that) and the eternal threat of being killed or turned tranquil the moment you even look like you're slipping up that needs to be fixed.

Rivain had the right idea. Circle members there had much more autonomy, were able to visit their families, combined the Circle with their own magical tradition of seers and had no templar guards to speak of. And all of this went well, their society having no noted mage-related problems ever since it's foundation -69 ancient.

Yet, they were all killed during the Annulment in 9:40. The reason? Rivain didn't follow the Chantry's orders regarding Circles to the letter. Therefore they were heretics and had to be purged.

Well it is life someone have to be on the bottom so you could be on the top. And often your happiness at cost someone else.So well life is brutal. 

 

Criminals are locked in prisons because they did something that society didn't liked this is more pragmatic thing not moral but peoples love paint it that way.Criminals aren't locked because they are morally wrong they are locked because they caused harm to society by disrupting order.Same with mages but danger is way much up so they are locked.It isn't about morals that are in fact irrelevant it is about safety of society. 

 

Rivian circle was full of abomnations good luck if you see that as good idea unless you like life in risk of being destroyed by bunch of abomnations that will be seen as nothing but natural disaster.

 

They were killed as i said for reasons above they were danger to society because of many reasons so they dealt with them.

 

 

Death and misery can cause the veil weaken even disapear as we know happened in the forest in DA:O which causes spirits and the like to posses corpses trees and such. What the Inq heals are Rifts not Tears there is a difference between the two and we have seen mages heal the veil during the course of DA:O in DLC like Wich Hunt and Warden headquarters.

 

So does poison, swords and bunch of other stuff in Thedas, magic also does good stuff

And then you come up to another threads and say other that they shouldn't discuss with me and yet you ignore fact that i said to you many times.Yes it can sure it does but you ignored 200 times what i have said forest in dao was battlefield between 2 forces that were magical societies elves and tevinter and that were mages who lead to situation in that forest so no that weren't non-mages.And as i said in case of non-mages this process is long other wise all thedas would be destroyed by demons long time ago as they have a lot of wars not mention denerim after darkspawn attack.No they don't heal veil avernus closes rift that he caused and he could do it only because that was caused by seals that he colosed later and in witch hunt you can attack it with sword and destroy it so well tell rest yourself...

 

Yeah lets comare blights or zathrian curse to poison what later kitchen knife?It does far far more damage than "good" things.

[The Ascendant]

I dislike the whole Dissonant Verses and  complacent attitude towards racism.How can you expect your Maker to return when you deliberately leave out parts of his song?

As for the March against the elves, that is more contentious. The elves had a good reason to avoid human contact, but not aiding them in the Second Blight was a poor move on their part. The darkspawn don't discriminate, they would have attacked them eventually. They should have aided the Wardens and the rest of Thedas.

The second exalted march, could really just be called the Dalish-Orleasian War. The Elves only attacked Orlais, only Orlais retaliated and fought in the Crusade. The Chantry no doubt helped, but considering that they are headquartered in Orlais, other nations involvement is ambiguous at best.

I am uncertain who started the war, but ultimately both Orlais and the Chantry profited from it. Orlais got a new province and the Chantry had an external enemy to unite the 'faithful'.

The whole 'hate all humans' is a poor move on the Dalish part, it was clearly Tevinter who sacked Arlathan and it was clearly Orlais who annexed the Dales.

P.S. Why should the elves receive the Dales?They have been part of Orlais far longer than they have been an independent kingdom. If you leave your house for hundreds of years, is it still your house?

I supported the Magisters attempt to take the Golden City. It was stated that the Maker turned his back on Mankind after we started worshipping the Old Gods, so why shouldn't we take his house if he doesn't care about us? It is a pity it backfired disastrously.

Treatment of mages is a sore spot for me, being a big magic supporter. The Circles need to become more like Hogwarts and less like Alcatraz. Mages are undeniably dangerous, I am not going to sugar coat it. But denying them basic rights is wrong. True many mages have become abominations after they passed their Harrowings, but in Kirkwall we have Templars who use the Rite of Tranquillity on mages who did, a clear violation of Chantry law. The Templars also attempt to usurp control of the city, another violation of the law. The Templars exist to guard and watch mages, hunt demons and blood mages, they shouldn't be ruling cities and kingdoms.

I also abhor the treatment of Qunari converts after the Wars. While I don't agree with everything about the Qun, slaughtering people is not a way to convince everyone that your religion is 'right'. Of course this could be applied to the Qunari who attacked the rest of Thedas with no other reason than to convert them, at least they try to convert them before killing or enslaving or lobotomizing them.

[Magdalena11]

With multiple threads about the evils of the Chantry, it's hardly a stagnant debate, but here goes.  The Chantry doesn't appear any more evil than any other institution.  Some people are higher up the ladder than others and may have risen to power by a variety of means.  Most probably feel they're doing the right thing, even if someone else's suffering is an unfortunate side effect.  Divine words can be interpreted in a variety of ways, as evidenced by the schism between the Imperial and Orlesian Chantries.  

 

Yes, there is political manipulation in the Chantry, for example Beatrix' interference with Kirkwall politics and Leliana's tacit endorsement of Celene quashing the elven uprising.  Leliana also first met Dorothea when her actions released Dorothea from an unspecified, politically compromising situation.  The groups that suffer are mages and elves, neither of which is given any leadership position in the Chantry, despite being expected to adhere to its policies.  Orsino might have been of equal rank to Meredith, and Irving to Greagoir, but neither they nor the First Enchanter at Dairsmuid had any input in the decision to invoke the ROA.  I think Elethina would have allowed the rite, even if Anders hadn't blown her up, because the whole reason Leliana was in Kirkwall in Act 3 was that the Divine was already moving in that direction and needed evidence to back up her decision.  Elves are not permitted to achieve any rank higher than mother or brother.

 

So, yes, the Chantry is corrupt, and capable of reaching decisions that ignore the ideals they pay lip-service to.  What should it be replaced with that wouldn't suffer the same drawbacks within a few years?  I think it's better to correct the wrong-thinking in the existing organization than to scrap it and start over, especially if it would cause the general populace to overhaul its existing beliefs.  Trying to overcome centuries of bad ideas and self-serving decisions that become dogma isn't something that can happen overnight.  When someone is exasperated, they exclaim "Maker's breath," not "Justinia's breath."  Their faith won't change with a change in leadership, but their attitudes might, eventually.

[CIA]

Can someone explain to me about the whole Lyrium addiction thing? I was going through the keep ^{BEFORE IT GLITCHED ME OUT OF IT DAMMIT} and I noticed an option regarding the Lyrium smuggling Dwarf from Orzammar. I vaguely remember some things about Lyrium addiction, and I remember Meredith turning into Satan itself from Lyrium, but I can't recall much else

[TheKomandorShepard]

Can someone explain to me about the whole Lyrium addiction thing? I was going through the keep ^{BEFORE IT GLITCHED ME OUT OF IT DAMMIT} and I noticed an option regarding the Lyrium smuggling Dwarf from Orzammar. I vaguely remember some things about Lyrium addiction, and I remember Meredith turning into Satan itself from Lyrium, but I can't recall much else

Templars need lyrium so they could use their anti-magic abilities meredith had red lyrium (it is new so we don't know much about that) sword that made her crazy as it seems it does the same with others.There is quest in dao about lyrium here have.

[raging_monkey]

Goes to bed a and whe have a MT debate...