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[TTTX]

And then you come up to another threads and say other that they shouldn't discuss with me and yet you ignore fact that i said to you many times.Yes it can sure it does but you ignored 200 times what i have said forest in dao was battlefield between 2 forces that were magical societies elves and tevinter and that were mages who lead to situation in that forest so no that weren't non-mages.And as i said in case of non-mages this process is long other wise all thedas would be destroyed by demons long time ago as they have a lot of wars not mention denerim after darkspawn attack.No they don't heal veil avernus closes rift that he caused and he could do it only because that was caused by seals that he colosed later and in witch hunt you can attack it with sword and destroy it so well tell rest yourself...

 

Yeah lets comare blights or zathrian curse to poison what later kitchen knife?It does far far more damage than "good" things.

I'm bit bored right now so I don't mind a bit mindless discussion. Actually it's not said who battle in the DA:O forest we can only assume it was Tevinter and the elves that did battle there and just to point another thing out Tevinter uses normal soldiers too which is actually the majority of their army, you give to much credit to the mages of Tevinter.

Yep it does take time and yes mages can heal the veil or at least patch it as what happened in Witch Hunt proves it we could only do it because Finn enchanted our weapons and Avernus did fix the Veil a non mage couldn't have done it.

 

So things like that happened because emotions like greed and anger and such. What happened to cause the blight took a lot of power, a mage can't normally do that on their own and Zathrian had lost his family, it doesn't excuse what he did but explains why he did it, hell you can even convince him to lift the curse which cause him to finally get the justice he deserves and free the people who have been wrongfully transformed.

 

 

Goes to bed a and whe have a MT debate...

Yep, time for some popcorn and watch some carnage.

[raging_monkey]

I'm bit bored right now so I don't mind a bit mindless discussion. Actually it's not said who battle in the DA:O forest we can only assume it was Tevinter and the elves that did battle there and just to point another thing out Tevinter uses normal soldiers too which is actually the majority of their army, you give to much credit to the mages of Tevinter.Yep it does take time and yes mages can heal the veil or at least patch it as what happened in Witch Hunt proves it we could only do it because Finn enchanted our weapons and Avernus did fix the Veil a non mage couldn't have done it. So things like that happened because emotions like greed and anger and such. What happened to cause the blight took a lot of power, a mage can't normally do that on their own and Zathrian had lost his family, it doesn't excuse what he did but explains why he did it, hell you can even convince him to lift the curse which cause him to finally get the justice he deserves and free the people who have been wrongfully transformed.  Yep, time for some popcorn and watch some carnage.

*passes popcorn and soda and a fire extingusher*

OT:most magephobia comes from tevinter practices that are now either gone or practiced by a small few(slavery excluded

[KoorahUK]

*passes popcorn and soda and a fire extingusher*

OT:most magephobia comes from tevinter practices that are now either gone or practiced by a small few(slavery excluded

And all those blood mages and abominations that Hawke couldn't walk 10 feet without stumbling over in Kirkwall.

[TTTX]

And all those blood mages and abominations that Hawke couldn't walk 10 feet without stumbling over in Kirkwall.

Kirkwall is pretty much the worst place for mage for various reasons.

[raging_monkey]

And all those blood mages and abominations that Hawke couldn't walk 10 feet without stumbling over in Kirkwall.

idk about kirkwall hard to tell from story to gameplay. Lorewise: kirkwall was near or was the cause of a large veil break, so all that crazy just made it worse and ironically a cause. Opinion: it was just a bad depiction of events and varric was telling the story so he might have been busting your chain

[TheKomandorShepard]

I'm bit bored right now so I don't mind a bit mindless discussion. Actually it's not said who battle in the DA:O forest we can only assume it was Tevinter and the elves that did battle there and just to point another thing out Tevinter uses normal soldiers too which is actually the majority of their army, you give to much credit to the mages of Tevinter.

Yep it does take time and yes mages can heal the veil or at least patch it as what happened in Witch Hunt proves it we could only do it because Finn enchanted our weapons and Avernus did fix the Veil a non mage couldn't have done it.

 

So things like that happened because emotions like greed and anger and such. What happened to cause the blight took a lot of power, a mage can't normally do that on their own and Zathrian had lost his family, it doesn't excuse what he did but explains why he did it, hell you can even convince him to lift the curse which cause him to finally get the justice he deserves and free the people who have been wrongfully transformed.

 

 

Yep, time for some popcorn and watch some carnage.

Simple because magic very quickly destroys veil as we were showed in various products so no magic was in use if simple non-mages could cause as i said most of thedas would be in demons hands because of wars between nations or blights...

 

Oh god you are ignoring what i have said and make up stuff finn never enhanced your weapon it was justice and that was in daa not witch hunt and again avernus fixed veil tear only by removing summoning circles he placed what was cause of that.

 

Dude i don't even how talk to you... yes it was greed and an emotions something that every human have so good luck with that excuse...

 

It took magic and yes normal mage wait blood mage can do it all it took was lyrium and blood magic so yes normal mage can do that not to mention 1000 ways for mage to cause disaster like for example 1 mage trying summon army of demons to destroy world it didn't cost him much effort and almost did it.And so what zathrian did what he did for his own reasons and there can be 1000 reasons for mage to create disaster for zathrian it was love , for magisters it was power hunger , for quentin it was love , for uldred it was power hunger and we can go and go for reasons.And yes he freed him after centuries and only if you you forced him.

 

[Keroko]

I'm sure you have indisputable proof of your wild accusations, you just choose to withhold it, for the safety of the forum's sake, yes?
 
That one revered mother, had to REQUEST the presence of mages, seems to suggest that lo and behold, the Chatnry does not actually own the mages.... Huh... Who would have thunk it, eh?

Oh they don't own them directly as one would a slave, but the Chantry doesn't exactly want them walking around everywhere either. Mages are under very strict templar supervision, and templars don't want mages wondering the field alone and unsupervised, for obvious reasons. And the templars have a lot of say in what mages in the tower are and are not allowed to do. And with the templars being under the command of the Chantry... Recall that one of your options as a mage Warden is to request more autonomy for the mages. More autonomy means they don't have autonomy of their own.
 

Well it is life someone have to be on the bottom so you could be on the top. And often your happiness at cost someone else.So well life is brutal.

You do realize that this logic justifies the Ancient Tevinter Imperium, right?
 

Criminals are locked in prisons because they did something that society didn't liked this is more pragmatic thing not moral but peoples love paint it that way.Criminals aren't locked because they are morally wrong they are locked because they caused harm to society by disrupting order.Same with mages but danger is way much up so they are locked.It isn't about morals that are in fact irrelevant it is about safety of society.

And by this logic, every human in the world should be locked up because every human has the potential to grab a knife and start stabbing people in a crowded marketplace.
 

Rivian circle was full of abomnations good luck if you see that as good idea unless you like life in risk of being destroyed by bunch of abomnations that will be seen as nothing but natural disaster.

They were killed as i said for reasons above they were danger to society because of many reasons so they dealt with them.

Rivain society had been without notable demon incidents ever since the founding of it's kingdom in -69. That means that in 9:40 dragon -the year of its annulment- it had gone almost a thousand years without demonic incidents.

It shows that if you have a structure properly train mages and teach them to be kind and helpful, they don't need to be locked away from everything they know and put under the constant threat of death or lobotomy in order to prevent the doom of a nation.

Let me put this in even more perspective: Rivain spend almost a thousand years with a system that trained mages but let them live free lives, and suffered no "rise of the demonic apocalypse."

The Chantry put into place a system which imprisons and isolates mages from society, and in the 800 years it existed they had to completely annul 19 circles, with a 20th being only barely saved by the Hero of Ferelden (making it 20 if you anulled it) had apostates and blood mages run rampant everywhere fighting for freedom or turning to forbidden magics to make their lot in life if not outright revenge, had mothers hide their children because they knew they would never see them again if their magic became known (with at least one disastrous consequence) and ending up with a huge mage-templar war that is currently tearing the world apart.

Please, by all means, tell me how the system that was forced to slaughter every man, women and child in the Circles it was supposed to 'protect' 19 to 20 times and eventually sparked a full-blown war is a better system to prevent mages going evil or demonic than that of the kingdom who's magic related problems were so few, the Chantry didn't even know the kingdom was breaking their rules until it accidentally tripped over the evidence.

[Ryriena]

They seem pretty much the opposite to me.

They kept the Qunari from conquering Thedas, They kept Magic under containment more or less for a thousand years and ,most importantly of all.

o.o they created the elf trope for DA.

No they did not keep the Qurani from conquering Thedas, the mages did that by actual having them serving a purpose. Instead of just sitting in their circles or being afraid of them just because of something they are born with.

[dragonflight288]

Because there is no certainty to be had. Once a mage has learned to control his abilities, does not mean he is immune to possession or even just corruption. The threat a mage pose is simply too big. Then of course there is also the fact that many mages chose to stay in the Circle, because it is the only place they can actually practice their arts in peace, and have resoruces readily available to them.

 

You don't see a lot of proffessors working outside of universities, and other academies, either after all. That is simply because these places provide the resources and facilities to help further the research. The Circle are the same, with the added bonus of security from prejudiced masses.

 

There is no certainty in anything. A mage may do this, a mage might do that, therefore we should lock them up and throw away the key? 

 

Nonmages can be just as devastating, maybe even more so, than mages or abominations can be. Take Gaspard for instance. He has started a civil war in Orlais, and has absolutely no problem starting a war with Ferelden to stop infighting in Orlais. He is more than willing to kill thousands, even tens of thousands of people, and he has the power and clout to do so, by virtue of being born a noble. Celene, by virtue of being in a position of power, had the authority to order the deaths of the elves of Halamshiral, thousands of people killed for no reason beyond silencing dissenting voices. 

 

Punishing mages for something they're born with and what they might do, and comparing it to mages in the past, every single argument, every one of them, that is used to justify treating mages this way can also be used on every single noble and royal family in every country in Thedas. 

 

Yet no one makes that argument, that a noble may abuse their power, kidnap elven woman from an alienage, on their wedding day no less, to be used and abused at the nobleman's leisure, or they may start a war of genocide against another family, or they treat people as less than tools in many cases, and thus ought to be locked up and the key thrown away for the good of all because a noble may do this or might do that. 

[EmperorSahlertz]

There is no certainty in anything. A mage may do this, a mage might do that, therefore we should lock them up and throw away the key? 

 

Nonmages can be just as devastating, maybe even more so, than mages or abominations can be. Take Gaspard for instance. He has started a civil war in Orlais, and has absolutely no problem starting a war with Ferelden to stop infighting in Orlais. He is more than willing to kill thousands, even tens of thousands of people, and he has the power and clout to do so, by virtue of being born a noble. Celene, by virtue of being in a position of power, had the authority to order the deaths of the elves of Halamshiral, thousands of people killed for no reason beyond silencing dissenting voices. 

 

Punishing mages for something they're born with and what they might do, and comparing it to mages in the past, every single argument, every one of them, that is used to justify treating mages this way can also be used on every single noble and royal family in every country in Thedas. 

 

Yet no one makes that argument, that a noble may abuse their power, kidnap elven woman from an alienage, on their wedding day no less, to be used and abused at the nobleman's leisure, or they may start a war of genocide against another family, or they treat people as less than tools in many cases, and thus ought to be locked up and the key thrown away for the good of all because a noble may do this or might do that. 

I can be reasonably certain that a normal human being isn't going to suddenly turn into a murderous maniac that will burn an entire region to the ground. Given the relatively small population of mages, the amount of Abominations is staggeringly high, meaning there is a very real and very present threat that ANY mage could succumb.

 

And you aren't punishing mages. You are confining them. The Circle is NOT a punishment. Only morons like Anders see it as such. The very tenets on which the Circle was based is the very OPPOSITE of punishment.

 

The difference between a noble and a mage is, that a noble would have to makea  cognitive choice AND he would have to have others heed his orders. For a amge no such thing is necessary. A single slip is all it would take, for the mage to be turned into an engine of destruction. That is the reason no one makes the comparisson.. Because it isn't a comparable scenario.

[Xilizhra]

I can be reasonably certain that a normal human being isn't going to suddenly turn into a murderous maniac that will burn an entire region to the ground. Given the relatively small population of mages, the amount of Abominations is staggeringly high, meaning there is a very real and very present threat that ANY mage could succumb.

 

And you aren't punishing mages. You are confining them. The Circle is NOT a punishment. Only morons like Anders see it as such. The very tenets on which the Circle was based is the very OPPOSITE of punishment.

 

The difference between a noble and a mage is, that a noble would have to makea  cognitive choice AND he would have to have others heed his orders. For a amge no such thing is necessary. A single slip is all it would take, for the mage to be turned into an engine of destruction. That is the reason no one makes the comparisson.. Because it isn't a comparable scenario.

Good. Then let it not be a punishment and serve only as protection of the mages in question from demons. Actually feeding them to demons hardly seems in line with that purpose, of course, something that also applies to emotionally lobotomizing them and slaughtering any the templars feel antagonized them a shade too much.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Oh they don't own them directly as one would a slave, but the Chantry doesn't exactly want them walking around everywhere either. Mages are under very strict templar supervision, and templars don't want mages wondering the field alone and unsupervised, for obvious reasons. And the templars have a lot of say in what mages in the tower are and are not allowed to do. And with the templars being under the command of the Chantry... Recall that one of your options as a mage Warden is to request more autonomy for the mages. More autonomy means they don't have autonomy of their own.

Yet for whatever reason, the Templars let the mages travel unsupervised... Repeatedly... Finn, Wynne and Innes are all examples of mages being allowed to travel unsupervised by Templars. The funny thing is, that all these mages are examples of mages that follow the rules, and are willing to play ball. Seems to me that the ones who actually behave themselves, and act rationally are trusted by the Chantry and Templars, so as to actually, more or less, do as they please. As long as they don't break any rules.

Greagoir himself also says that the Templars do not rule. Instead they advise and supervise. That means, the Templars are there to enforce the rules the Circle and the Chantry set when the Circle were created.

[TheKomandorShepard]

You do realize that this logic justifies the Ancient Tevinter Imperium, right?
 

And by this logic, every human in the world should be locked up because every human has the potential to grab a knife and start stabbing people in a crowded marketplace.
 

Rivain society had been without notable demon incidents ever since the founding of it's kingdom in -69. That means that in 9:40 dragon -the year of its annulment- it had gone almost a thousand years without demonic incidents.

It shows that if you have a structure properly train mages and teach them to be kind and helpful, they don't need to be locked away from everything they know and put under the constant threat of death or lobotomy in order to prevent the doom of a nation.

Let me put this in even more perspective: Rivain spend almost a thousand years with a system that trained mages but let them live free lives, and suffered no "rise of the demonic apocalypse."

The Chantry put into place a system which imprisons and isolates mages from society, and in the 800 years it existed they had to completely annul 19 circles, with a 20th being only barely saved by the Hero of Ferelden (making it 20 if you anulled it) had apostates and blood mages run rampant everywhere fighting for freedom or turning to forbidden magics to make their lot in life if not outright revenge, had mothers hide their children because they knew they would never see them again if their magic became known (with at least one disastrous consequence) and ending up with a huge mage-templar war that is currently tearing the world apart.

Please, by all means, tell me how the system that was forced to slaughter every man, women and child in the Circles it was supposed to 'protect' 19 to 20 times and eventually sparked a full-blown war is a better system to prevent mages going evil or demonic than that of the kingdom who's magic related problems were so few, the Chantry didn't even know the kingdom was breaking their rules until it accidentally tripped over the evidence.

Of course it is how society works but it also justifies how they fell.

 

Again not rly please peoples stop think so simplistic way there is scale of danger and peoples response differently depending on how dangerous something is humans are accepted by human society because most peoples is pretty much equaly dangerous and humans can deal with it and human society is made by humans so what would be point... but cat isn't treated in same way as tiger despite both are animals , and both can be dangerous but at a different level.

 

Yes but they cause disasters i doubt that you would be fine if i went to your home with machine gun just because i didn't caused apocalypse same for police.Not to mention that there was chantry.

 

As i said it happens because templars and chantry fail to do their job.

 

There is no system preventing from someone going "evil" unless you have control over person or you destroyed every person under that system... not mention that morality it that matter is irrelevant.Only way to prevent mages from causing disaster is obtaining complete control over them or destroy them...  

[Xilizhra]

Yet for whatever reason, the Templars let the mages travel unsupervised... Repeatedly... Finn, Wynne and Innes are all examples of mages being allowed to travel unsupervised by Templars. The funny thing is, that all these mages are examples of mages that follow the rules, and are willing to play ball. Seems to me that the ones who actually behave themselves, and act rationally are trusted by the Chantry and Templars, so as to actually, more or less, do as they please. As long as they don't break any rules.

Greagoir himself also says that the Templars do not rule. Instead they advise and supervise. That means, the Templars are there to enforce the rules the Circle and the Chantry set when the Circle were created.

Well, technically, the Chantry allowed all mages to go free after Asunder, so we're dealing with a changed political climate anyway.

[Steelcan]

Good. Then let it not be a punishment and serve only as protection of the mages in question from demons. Actually feeding them to demons hardly seems in line with that purpose, of course, something that also applies to emotionally lobotomizing them and slaughtering any the templars feel antagonized them a shade too much.

Gods forbid the Circle ensure the competence of its own members.  If you have a mage who is going to be possessed by demons, better to know it off the bat and in a controlled situation, rather then the mage getting possessed while sleeping

[EmperorSahlertz]

Good. Then let it not be a punishment and serve only as protection of the mages in question from demons. Actually feeding them to demons hardly seems in line with that purpose, of course, something that also applies to emotionally lobotomizing them and slaughtering any the templars feel antagonized them a shade too much.

It already serves to protect them from demons. But it also serves to protect the world from mages and magic.

 

And I would ask you to drop the loaded rhetoric, but I know well enough that you can't form a coherent arguement without it, so I won't...

[Master Warder Z_]

No they did not keep the Qurani from conquering Thedas, the mages did that by actual having them serving a purpose. Instead of just sitting in their circles or being afraid of them just because of something they are born with.

Mmm right.

And you credit the entire outcome of a war that every army in Thedas fighting them under Chantry direction solely to the minority of forces and not the thousands upon thousands that made up their forces.

Magic played a part in the defeat of the Qunari but no more so then say the exalted Marches.

[dragonflight288]

I can be reasonably certain that a normal human being isn't going to suddenly turn into a murderous maniac that will burn an entire region to the ground. Given the relatively small population of mages, the amount of Abominations is staggeringly high, meaning there is a very real and very present threat that ANY mage could succumb.

 

And you aren't punishing mages. You are confining them. The Circle is NOT a punishment. Only morons like Anders see it as such. The very tenets on which the Circle was based is the very OPPOSITE of punishment.

 

The difference between a noble and a mage is, that a noble would have to makea  cognitive choice AND he would have to have others heed his orders. For a amge no such thing is necessary. A single slip is all it would take, for the mage to be turned into an engine of destruction. That is the reason no one makes the comparisson.. Because it isn't a comparable scenario.

 

I can be reasonably certain a normal person wouldn't do that, certainly. And mages are people. Therefore, a normal mage wouldn't do that. 

[Steelcan]

I can be reasonably certain a normal person wouldn't do that, certainly. And mages are people. Therefore, a normal mage wouldn't do that. 

they can't entirely control it.  They can be possessed and become an abomination regardless of whether they want it or not

[EmperorSahlertz]

I can be reasonably certain a normal person wouldn't do that, certainly. And mages are people. Therefore, a normal mage wouldn't do that. 

And then the demons enter the equation, and everything changes.

[Br3admax]

I can be reasonably certain a normal person wouldn't do that, certainly. And mages are people. Therefore, a normal mage wouldn't do that.

What? Mages aren't normal people.

[Xilizhra]

It already serves to protect them from demons. But it also serves to protect the world from mages and magic.

 

And I would ask you to drop the loaded rhetoric, but I know well enough that you can't form a coherent arguement without it, so I won't...

Ah, so you're changing your argument midstride and firing off personal attacks. Glorious.

 

"Protecting the world from magic," as an impersonal force, is practically synonymous with protecting mages from demons, as demons are the main source of haywire magic. "Protecting the world from mages," however, is a completely different subject and one rife with injustice, as it involves tainting the laudable desire to stop demons with the magophobic urge to see all mages stay locked up regardless of whether or not they've committed any crimes. The way I see it, if mages are to be governed separately from mundanes, it's the duty of national governments to protect their people from magic as they do from everything else, without interfering with the mages who are being governed separately; in short, national templar forces that exist to protect the people from magical threats.

 

 

Gods forbid the Circle ensure the competence of its own members.  If you have a mage who is going to be possessed by demons, better to know it off the bat and in a controlled situation, rather then the mage getting possessed while sleeping

If that's necessary, have another, more experienced mage on hand who can fight the demon off so that the apprentice won't get possessed and then killed.

[Steelcan]

 

If that's necessary, have another, more experienced mage on hand who can fight the demon off so that the apprentice won't get possessed and then killed.

Why don't we put out fires with gasoline and alcohol?

[dragonflight288]

they can't entirely control it.  They can be possessed and become an abomination regardless of whether they want it or not

 

While in the Fade, in the presence of a demon, or so on. 

 

And if a demon breaks free of the Fade, they often possess the very first thing they come in contact with, trees, animals, dead corpses, regular people. 

 

Mages are not ticking time bombs that will inevitably turn into an abomination, whether they will it or not. They are people, while in greater risk of it, are in need of training. Once trained, they pose barely more of a risk than the armed knight patrolling the road. Well armed and highly dangerous, but not necessarily aggressive, or even inclined to violence. 

 

What? Mages aren't normal people.

 

Hence why I said mages are people and normal mages, not necessarily normal people. 

 

Mages are people, and as such, have very real and normal human/elven emotions. Most will be no different from the average person in their temperament or inclinations. Most simply show a desire to live their lives. 

 

Now, I'd love to continue this debate, but I've got to go to work now. So later guys.