76 réponses à ce sujet

[SnakeCode]

A story that doesn't insult your intelligence. Where every little thing isn't spelt out for everyone. Leaving the player to figure out what happened by leaving vague hints and clues. Reading characters emotions through small gestures and facial expressions. Flawed, realistic characters (including the protagonists) that do the right thing for the wrong reasons, or the wrong thing for the right reasons.

 

Deep, emotional, poignant writing that doesn't pull it's punches. No skirting around issues that make people uncomfortable.

 

 

The Last of Us had all of this and more, and it happened to be an incredibly mature game that didn't sexualize ANY of the characters or include nudity whatsoever. Naughty Dog accomplished all of this by writing the story that THEY wanted to tell, and didn't flinch or shy away from adding some pretty heavy hitting stuff (unfortunately I think that level of storytelling and writing is beyond Bioware.)

 

Not that nudity and sex can't be mature (it can be when implemented well) but it isn't inherently so. I actually think if you are going to do sex scenes, then do them right. It's painfully obvious when companies censor themselves and the sex scenes just become an embarrassment because of it. Bioware are actually pretty big offenders here (Morrigan putting clothes ON for sex and Traynor's shower attire come to mind.)

[BraveVesperia]

Complex and deep storylines that explore morality, emotions, politics, social values etc. I think DA already covers that in some interesting ways with the racial conflicts, templar/mage issues, religion, politics, social class, etc. Obviously could do more, but it's already got some very interesting aspects down. Showing that there are various different shades to every issue is part of that, I think. Just making it black and white would be useless.

 

Also probably something that's rich in lore and makes you think. Basically a story you aren't going to snooze through.

[Br3admax]

Thedas already comes closer than most I've played in, if we're being fair.

No...no it doesn't. It's the classic cookiecutter fantasy setting. 

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

No...no it doesn't. It's the classic cookiecutter fantasy setting. 

Somewhat less so than Neverwinter, I'd argue. (Especially if we consider Orlais, apparently.)

[Vroom Vroom]

I just want deep, well fleshed out character's and an intricate plot with a few twists that I'll never see coming (and make sense). If the game has those things, then I consider the story to be mature. A story need not have sex or romance for it to be mature, just good characters and an understandable plot. Darkness can be good though and given the setting of this game I would find it to be beneficial. 

[Freedheart]

When I think of 'mature' in video games, I remember telling a friend about Mass Effect.  She said she thought it was something she thought her son would enjoy...I asked her how old he was, because I was concerned for him - not for the violence, or the "sex" but because of what happened on Vermire.  Maybe I'm just overly sensitive, but that was a weighty decision, and it had consequences - one of those 'no good outcome' situations that used to trouble me when I was younger.  That to me denotes a 'Mature' game.

 

 

 

(oh, and full frontal nudity - I'm talking to you, Dorian!)

[KaiserShep]

An actually realistic medieval social setting. Bet fans would get a kick out of that. 

 

While this largely depends on what this "realism" entails, I'd guess that it's a little late to start reshaping the Dragon Age universe to align more with what we know of actual medieval history. Frankly, the medieval social setting is not what I would call riveting stuff. I don't think DA is missing anything by not really reflecting it with a great deal of accuracy.

[ShadowLordXII]

A story that doesn't insult your intelligence. Where every little thing isn't spelt out for everyone. Leaving the player to figure out what happened by leaving vague hints and clues. Reading characters emotions through small gestures and facial expressions. Flawed, realistic characters (including the protagonists) that do the right thing for the wrong reasons, or the wrong thing for the right reasons.

 

Deep, emotional, poignant writing that doesn't pull it's punches. No skirting around issues that make people uncomfortable.

 

Not that I disagree with this part of your statement, but it has to applied carefully.

 

Too often, I've seen many stories try to do something similar and it just comes off as pretentious nonsense or idiocy ruling the day. To me, a story that is so vague that the context of character decisions and actions can't be justified, seen as relate-able, or isn't at least understandable isn't mature. It's just contrived nonsense meant to move the plot forward. Key examples of this type of nonsensical story-telling include: Battlefield Earth, the Third Evangelion Rebuild Movie, Soul Calibur V, A lot of stuff in the Star Wars Prequels, Mass Effect 3's ending and the character of Sasuke from the manga/anime Naruto.

 

It's especially worst when the story still expects you to care about these characters. Or worst, when the story rubs in your face about how deep that it's portraying itself as being. That's even more insulting to my intelligence than a story that's straight-forward about who the good and bad guys are.

[Gtdef]

The setting is mature enough. It's just that Dragon Age has very flat and family friendly character development. Dark is not enough. Disturbing and Brutal are the right words. We have demons of any sin possible plaguing the world, barbarians and renegades roam the land without any notion of nobility. We need to see the slaughter. The carnage. Good old "dung ages" violence. On the matter of explicit sex, I think it's irrelevant. Only the relationship matters and if it's done well, elements will bleed into the sex scene, no matter if it's explicit or assumed. That's the mature part.

 

The fantasy setting is already familiar. The details are those that set it apart. Awakening was very good at this.

[Jorji Costava]

Extreme TL;DR warning in effect:

Like the word "naturalism" in philosophy, "maturity" seems to be one of those words everyone wants a piece of but no one can define. The best I can do is to steal phraseology from Film Crit Hulk: A 'mature' work is one that doesn't indulge you: It gives you what you need instead of what you want.

Stories that get classed as immature tend to be heavy on wish-fulfillment, power fantasy, etc. (see Bond, James), whereas a disproportionate number of stories coded as 'mature' tend to be about characters that readers decidedly would not want to be or be like. Nobody wants to be as indecisive as Hamlet, as poor as Tom Joad, as obsessive as Ahab, etc. Now I'm not attempting to make a judgment about whether on the whole this classification scheme is a good or bad one; I'm just trying to get a handle on what the term means and how it's used.

I think this explains why maturity often gets conflated with realism and/or darkness, grittiness, etc. Stories with a lot of fantasy/unrealistic elements tend to use those elements to facilitate power fantasy (i.e. mutant superpowers, telepathic abilities, etc.), but a story can be immature without these: For example, a non-fantasy story about a guy who gets every girl he wants, is never wrong about anything, etc. is not a mature story. And it's easy to assume that happy endings are by their nature indulging the desires of the audience, so from there a further assumption is made: It must be that darker endings are the opposite of indulgent, which makes them 'mature.' Again, I would resist this, but I won't go into the reasons here.

The understanding of maturity as being opposed to indulgence also seems to be a big reason why games struggle to get recognized as 'mature'; game design tends to emphasize interactivity, which means giving players significant control over the state of the game at a given time. This has a way of bleeding over into giving the player avatar significant control over the state of the game world, which lends itself to power fantasy-type stories, particularly in AAA game design. It's hard to design satisfying mechanics around being disempowered, so you're unlikely to see an AAA developer make a game adaptation of De Sica's The Bicycle Thief, for instance.

Bringing this back to Dragon Age, I think DAI is unlikely to break these trends. The player avatar is put in charge of an organization that will come to have considerable influence, will play a crucial role in major political conflicts like the mage/templar issue, and is tasked with putting a stop to the Veil tears, a plot hook that looks like it will naturally point in the direction of some existential threat to all of Thedas. The emphasis looks to be on giving the player as much influence and control as possible.

Again, none of this to say that DAI will automatically be a lesser game because it has power fantasy elements, or that we should all subsist exclusively on a diet of Italian neorealist movies, etc. If I felt that way, I wouldn't be here. But I am trying to get a handle on what the term 'mature' is usually taken to mean, and what the implications of this are for Dragon Age.

 

EDIT: Changed some phrasing.

[Zakhar]

I'd just want it to take itself seriously as far as the story goes. Consistently I mean.

For example, the GTA series in recent years has gone for a more mature story telling (with varying degrees of success I'll admit).

Then it destroys all that when in the middle of this hardcore story about city gangs the radio advertises the "Cluck it Bucket".

Total disconnect from anything serious the game is trying to tell.

For me a story doesn't need violence, sex, mindless depravities or the showing off the worst of human kind. It just needs to lay out a story and keep to its themes.

I don't mind some humor cause damn if jokes help ease the tension of possible destruction but it'd ruin it all if the Inquisitor tossed a water baloon filled with blood at Iron Bull.

[Chiramu]

A thoughtful Inquisitor who is not just interested in playing the hero and getting into everyone's pants. 

 

I want more than anything to have a PC from a Bioware game to be thoughtful, every game so far from Bioware has never really had a rational PC. I dislike the anger that is forced onto me the most with this, when I feel no anger my PC is angry. It makes no sense and ruins the RP.

[NoForgiveness]

Honestly, I find it odd that I can say I literally "splattered his ass everywhere"(theoretical cookie for anyone who gets the reference) but seeing someone's(man or woman) full frontal is completely off limits. Not that I would favor that over the supposed ME1-like scenes in dai. Games(or tv shows or whatever) that do have nudity usually don't do it very maturely. So... *shrug*

[CENIC]

Pornographic sex scenes with the Inquisitor and his or her love interest. Nugs included.

 

Are the nugs greased? This affects the rating.

[Darkly Tranquil]

Are the nugs greased? This affects the rating.

What kind of sick, depraved freak doesn't grease their nugs?!

Speaking of which, I hope the Grease spell from Origins makes a return in DAI. Nothing like a good grease fire in the middle of a battle.

[Pseudo the Mustachioed]

A butt.

[Anarya]

Depends.

[Lenimph]

Penis

[KaiserShep]

A thoughtful Inquisitor who is not just interested in playing the hero and getting into everyone's pants. 

 

I want more than anything to have a PC from a Bioware game to be thoughtful, every game so far from Bioware has never really had a rational PC. I dislike the anger that is forced onto me the most with this, when I feel no anger my PC is angry. It makes no sense and ruins the RP.

 

Anger is not necessarily irrational, but I understand the gripe of automatic emotional responses.

[CapivaRasgor]

Well, BioWare RPG’s already deal with their lore in a more mature tone than western RPG’s do as far as they go. But I think they would benefit more if they explored in more depth some of the themes their games stumbled upon. Let me explain a bit more:

Mass Effect dealt with some pretty interesting themes, among them the “what It means to be alive”. The discussion if synthetics are a legitimate form of life or just sophisticated machines was one of the most intriguing. There should be more exploration to this kind of them than talking with a companion(EDI) or having a Deus Ex Machina show up at the last ten minutes telling you that this was what the main conflict was all about (looking at you Star Child).

Dragon Age also brings some pretty interesting themes, Freedom vs Security in the form of Mages vs Templars and with the Qunari vs everyone else to an extent. It also shows faith as theme, how far some people are willing to go to defend it (Petrice) how others apparently found a semblance of redemption in it (Leliana) and how religions are often at odds with each other over who holds the absolute truth (White Chantry vs Black Chantry, Andrastianism vs other religions). But you know whats lacking? People who question religion and established tradition, social and religious dissidents and not just those who are irrational jerks about it(looking at you Anders, you too Adrian). Perhaps show people who are trying to change the status quo from within, like Justinia in Asunder, but show that on screen (not everyone reads the books you know). They could also show us instead of telling us about those Dalish Clans who cooperate with humans rather than antagonize them (like the multiplayer’s Keeper clan, who shares lore with non-elves), hell they could even show clans that aren’t so focused on regaining lost lore but are instead trying to find a way to move on, perhaps settling on another. In short: more moderate progressists, less “freedom fighters” or “resentful defeated” please.

Also the games could explore a little more on the realism part by showing companions interacting a bit more, and I mean when no just banter when the party is wandering around, but actual gatherings, perhaps a game of cards? A drink contest? Or arguments when they are left to themselves(not Anders vs Fenris mind you)? Show them developing the camaraderie of people who’ve been through hell togheter the kinda of bond that makes them a little more accepting of that guy/gal that they used to hate, or maybe forming romantic bonds if left unromanced(ala Garrus and Tali). Have them feel a little more like people not clichéd stereotypes.

[NoForgiveness]

people who are trying to change the status quo from within, like Justinia in Asunder,

My side hurts after reading this. Thanks for the laugh anyway.

[CapivaRasgor]

My side hurts after reading this. Thanks for the laugh anyway.

 

Oh boy, you are welcome, it was nothing... really... that is, if you think that looking for an alternative for the Rite of Tranquility isn't a step towards changing the Circle system but a joke then laugh it up  . To each their own I suppose.

[SnakeCode]

The setting is mature enough. It's just that Dragon Age has very flat and family friendly character development. Dark is not enough. Disturbing and Brutal are the right words. We have demons of any sin possible plaguing the world, barbarians and renegades roam the land without any notion of nobility. We need to see the slaughter. The carnage. Good old "dung ages" violence. On the matter of explicit sex, I think it's irrelevant. Only the relationship matters and if it's done well, elements will bleed into the sex scene, no matter if it's explicit or assumed. That's the mature part.

 

The fantasy setting is already familiar. The details are those that set it apart. Awakening was very good at this.

This is a pretty important point I think, Dragon Age DOES have mature themes running throughout the story, but where it lacks is in it's presentation. 

 

We hear about (and sometimes see) things happening to people such as slavery, possible rape, cannibalism, torture, racism, poverty, we see refugees fleeing their homes, all of these are very mature themes. The problem is it's hard to take it seriously when none of this affects the pc in any way. Whilst all of this is going on, the pc and his/her companions are laughing and flirting and making jokes about liking big boats.

 

It's like somebody took the plot of 'From Hell' and condensed it to be presented as an episode of Scooby Doo. Cartoonish and overly humourous, as well as making references to popular culture.

 

DA:O and DA2 especially suffered from this kind of presentation. From what i've seen of DA:I, it will have the same flaws in it's presentation as well.

[Reptillius]

Some of the ambient conversations kind of showing your companions interact a bit did exist in ME3.  Not in a real in your face kind of way. But there were several overheard intercommunication type conversations you could overhear if you hung back a bit sometimes when entering different rooms.  And a couple of the characters did move about the ship a little but overall did seem basically cemented to their certain places sadly.

 

It'd be nice if we saw the various characters move around Skyhold a bit and gather together in groups to have those conversations.  Even if it ends up being somewhat predictable and scripted as when you'll find them gathered where.  Though it could be entertaining and frustrating all at the same time to have some randomness to it causing you to explore the keep a bit more between missions.  Of course even with this randomness there would still have to be at least a bit of predictability to it so your not forced to look in every corner every single time to find one of your advisors or just that right merchant or something.