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What would you need to see for Inquisition to be considered "Mature"


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#76
PhroXenGold

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A story that doesn't insult your intelligence. Where every little thing isn't spelt out for everyone. Leaving the player to figure out what happened by leaving vague hints and clues. Reading characters emotions through small gestures and facial expressions. Flawed, realistic characters (including the protagonists) that do the right thing for the wrong reasons, or the wrong thing for the right reasons.

 

Deep, emotional, poignant writing that doesn't pull it's punches. No skirting around issues that make people uncomfortable.

 

 

The Last of Us had all of this and more, and it happened to be an incredibly mature game that didn't sexualize ANY of the characters or include nudity whatsoever. Naughty Dog accomplished all of this by writing the story that THEY wanted to tell, and didn't flinch or shy away from adding some pretty heavy hitting stuff (unfortunately I think that level of storytelling and writing is beyond Bioware.)

 

Not that nudity and sex can't be mature (it can be when implemented well) but it isn't inherently so. I actually think if you are going to do sex scenes, then do them right. It's painfully obvious when companies censor themselves and the sex scenes just become an embarrassment because of it. Bioware are actually pretty big offenders here (Morrigan putting clothes ON for sex and Traynor's shower attire come to mind.)

 

I completely agree with the first sentence of this, but I only half agree with the rest of the first paragraph. Certainly, those things, if well implemented, are mature. But I don't think that they are required for maturity. I think you can have mature stories where things are spelled out to you. I think you can have mature stories where people aren't realistic, and they do good things and everything works out. I think you can tell mature stories where there isn't deep emotional, poignant writing. And to explain this, I'll come back to you're first sentence: don't insult our intelligence.

 

What do I mean? Well, it's sort of like this. If you're telling a fairy tale, tell a fairy tale. Don't try to pretend that you're telling a "mature" complex story, when it's actually about good vs. evil and happily ever after. Instead, just be straight up about the story, and try to tell the best fairy tale you can.

 

Because, you know, enjoying fairy tales is not immature. And if enjoying fairy tales isn't immature, there's not reasons why they shouldn't be considered mature stories, if they are written in a way that accepts them for what they are, and revels in it. Similarly, disliking fairy tales, or trying not to write them purely because they are immature is, to me, in itself immature - that's not to say that avoiding such stories in general is immature, just that if you're reasoning for doing so is because they're immature, I can't see much maturity in you, just a fear of being seen as immature.

 

Take, say, The Princess Bride (the film at least, for some bizarre reason I haven't read the book yet). Ignore the framing narrative and just take the main story. It's about a dashing swashbuckler saving the princess from the evil guy and finding true love. It's nothing more than that. It's a comedy yes, but it's not a spoof and still plays the main story pretty straight. And yet, I wouldn't in any way say it's an immature film. It's sharp. It's intelligently written. And it never tries to be something it's not. Because of this, I would say it's actually quite a mature piece of storytelling.

 

For me, a clear sign of immaturity in storytelling is trying to be mature by incorporating elements seen as mature into stories where they don't fit. Whether it's "mature" things like killing and sex, or even thing that are genuinely mature, such as more complex stories and flawed characters, if they're in a story because they are mature, then I would say the story is not mature. Those elements should be included because they fit the story and the setting, and if they don't fit, they shouldn't be included. Understanding that is, for me, probably the key element to mature storytelling. And it comes back to not insulting the reader's/viewer's/player's intelligence.

 

Of course, there are plenty of mature stories that do include the elements the post I'm quoting highlights. Hell, a couple of months back I picked up one of the most genuinely mature games I've ever played thanks to it being on Steam sale: Spec Ops: The Line. I won't say too much about it, other than suggesting that everyone should try it - maybe not at full price, but definitely when it's on sale. It is very much an "adult" game, but that comes as a result of the story it is telling, not because it's trying to be "adult".

 

For a contrast, well, seeing as I'm on the Dragon Age forums, look at some of the Origins trailers. Wow. BADASS DUDEBRO! HOT WOMEN! BLOOD! KILLING! SWEARING! SEX! MARYLIN MANSON! It's like Bioware (or their marketers) have put up a massive neon sign shouting "LOOK AT US!! WE'RE REALLY REALLY MATURE!!!" First off, this is a failure because, instead of actually being mature, they're basically being what a 12 year old thinks is mature. But worse than that, they're highlighting these elements purely to demonstrate that they are mature. And if you were genuinely mature, why would you feel the need to demonstrate it? You would say, "look at these aspects of our game, they're really good", not "look at these aspects of our game, they're really mature". You would highlight the qualities of your storytelling, not it's maturity. Focusing on the latter seems to demonstrate some level of insecurity to me. Why are you so worried about being seen as immature?

 

I'm starting to go on a bit, so I'll leave you with a quote that I feel captures my thoughts on maturity and being adult perfectly:

 

 

"Critics who treat 'adult' as a term of approval, instead of as a merely descriptive term, cannot be adult themselves. To be concerned about being grown up, to admire the grown up because it is grown up, to blush at the suspicion of being childish; these things are the marks of childhood and adolescence. And in childhood and adolescence they are, in moderation, healthy symptoms. Young things ought to want to grow. But to carry on into middle life or even into early manhood this concern about being adult is a mark of really arrested development. When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty I read them openly. When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up."
-C.S. Lewis


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#77
Urazz

Urazz
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A story that doesn't insult your intelligence. Where every little thing isn't spelt out for everyone. Leaving the player to figure out what happened by leaving vague hints and clues. Reading characters emotions through small gestures and facial expressions. Flawed, realistic characters (including the protagonists) that do the right thing for the wrong reasons, or the wrong thing for the right reasons.

 

Deep, emotional, poignant writing that doesn't pull it's punches. No skirting around issues that make people uncomfortable.

 

 

The Last of Us had all of this and more, and it happened to be an incredibly mature game that didn't sexualize ANY of the characters or include nudity whatsoever. Naughty Dog accomplished all of this by writing the story that THEY wanted to tell, and didn't flinch or shy away from adding some pretty heavy hitting stuff (unfortunately I think that level of storytelling and writing is beyond Bioware.)

 

Not that nudity and sex can't be mature (it can be when implemented well) but it isn't inherently so. I actually think if you are going to do sex scenes, then do them right. It's painfully obvious when companies censor themselves and the sex scenes just become an embarrassment because of it. Bioware are actually pretty big offenders here (Morrigan putting clothes ON for sex and Traynor's shower attire come to mind.)

Pretty much what I feel with M rated games.  If the scene in the story is a sex scene, then I expect a bit of nudity at least on par with what Mass Effect 1 brought us.  If the scene is a fight scene, then I expect to see some blood when appropriate.