117 réponses à ce sujet

[Elhanan]

They do get repetitive after a while. I've only been playing for a couple of weeks and I find myself thinking "here's the bridge piece again," for instance. I guess there are only so many ways to build a dungeon.

As one that is Techless, I cannot say as to how many bridge designs are in the Toolkit. Yet, as with NWN1, the Toolkit is free, and every dungeon appears to have a unique blueprint.

You've been around here long enough to remember Syrsuro, right? His position was that TES combat wasn't ever going to be enjoyable or balanced since that wasn't the design objective, so the thing to do was just go right for the exploits and steamroll everything. (Or am I thinking of Torias?)

Anyway, Skyrim's a lot better balanced than Oblivion, and my mage doesn't have to go around casting Bound Spear all the time the way he did in Morrowind. But I have a problem here which is sort of related to my earlier point. Having to deliberately think of ways to manipulate the levelling system is unfun for me when it takes me out of the PC's headspace. Thinking "do I need to get spell X" is in-character, thinking "I've got to stop levelling Alchemy so much because it's making the enemies too tough" is out-of-character. Thankfully, known to not be an issue with DAI.

My point is that each Player may decide how they wish to design their game for combat. I prefer to avoid most higher weapon Perks except for Archery, while other Players may wish to take all they want for instant kills. Having the freedom of choice is a bonus.

Minus for me, but nobody's making me or anyone else grind smithing.

Again, one has the freedom of choice. For several sessions, I skipped Enchanting, and only used what was available for purchase. Currently, I am planning on using Enchanting, but may skip the top perk, as it usually becomes too easy for me after that.

And I never grind; easier for me to use Console Commands and a montage of time passing to illustrate the same effect. I refuse to bow to MMO receptiveness, in Skyrim or DA. That said, I have hundreds of hours in all of them.

[Cyonan]

Skyrim dungeons are built out of the same rooms and pieces just rearranged into different orders each time. They're "unique" in that the specific order of rooms might not have been used elsewhere.

 

The problem is that the number of tilesets is very small and once you've seen one Dwemer Ruin/Keep/Cave/etc. you've essentially seen them all.

 

I absolutely love exploration in games, but I can't really handle Skyrim in more than 1-2 week chunks. It just gets too repetitive, even with around 60 mods installed at the moment.

 

That and there really isn't much worth finding. Everything pretty much looks the same as what you've already seen and truly unique weapons are few and far between(at least in the base game).

[Elhanan]

Skyrim dungeons are built out of the same rooms and pieces just rearranged into different orders each time. They're "unique" in that the specific order of rooms might not have been used elsewhere.
 
The problem is that the number of tilesets is very small and once you've seen one Dwemer Ruin/Keep/Cave/etc. you've essentially seen them all.
 
I absolutely love exploration in games, but I can't really handle Skyrim in more than 1-2 week chunks. It just gets too repetitive, even with around 60 mods installed at the moment.
 
That and there really isn't much worth finding. Everything pretty much looks the same as what you've already seen and truly unique weapons are few and far between(at least in the base game).

Forelhost: http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Forelhost

Ragnvald: http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Ragnvald

Ironbind Barrow http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Ironbind_Barrow

Three varied designs all hosting Word Walls. And am still finding new locations missed on prior play sessions. And as far as varied appearances; I simply do not expect one Nordic tomb to look and use different looks than another, yet they do look different than Dwemer ruins. This is a design concept I support.

[Fiery Phoenix]

Those saying Skyrim's main quest was weak story-wise need to check out Dawnguard. If there's anything that DLC proved, it's that Bethesda can write a decent story when they want.

[Cyonan]

Forelhost: http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Forelhost

Ragnvald: http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Ragnvald

Ironbind Barrow http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Ironbind_Barrow

Three varied designs all hosting Word Walls. And am still finding new locations missed on prior play sessions. And as far as varied appearances; I simply do not expect one Nordic tomb to look and use different looks than another, yet they do look different than Dwemer ruins. This is a design concept I support.

 

I've seen the inside of so many Nordic tombs that I don't recall any by name anymore, but are they different designed in that the rooms are all arranged in a different manner from each other or do they legitimately have different architecture not found in the other 39238 Nordic tombs in Skyrim?

 

I'm not against them having the same look and feel to them, but when you get down to it there really isn't a huge amount of variety in the types of dungeons you can have in the game which means you're going to be seeing a lot of the same look and feel Nordic tombs, Dwemer Ruins, Imperial Keeps, and Caves.

[KC_Prototype]

I can see about three influences Skyrim had on DAI just from gameplay, trailers and interviews. I'm glad Bioware was open to what other RPG developers were doing and using elements from other RPGs to better their own game. 

[Elhanan]

I've seen the inside of so many Nordic tombs that I don't recall any by name anymore, but are they different designed in that the rooms are all arranged in a different manner from each other or do they legitimately have different architecture not found in the other 39238 Nordic tombs in Skyrim?
 
I'm not against them having the same look and feel to them, but when you get down to it there really isn't a huge amount of variety in the types of dungeons you can have in the game which means you're going to be seeing a lot of the same look and feel Nordic tombs, Dwemer Ruins, Imperial Keeps, and Caves.

lol - I empathize; can usually only recall a few actual names, and have to use the Wiki to select the ones I recall from how they are played in game.

Forelhost is introduced by a NPC that requests your help to aid one of the factions of the Civil War. Inside, one is met with the journal notes on an old Dragon sect that took their own lives, and that of their own families by poison.

Ragnvald is separated in three sections; skulls collected in two which are used as keys to enter just beyond the third.

Ironbind Barrow - the crypt which is being investigated by an adventurer and her Argonian companion. They seek treasure, though something else is also of value to one of them. This tomb empties to the side of a mountain, which can lead to other nearby ruins and tombs.

I recall these because their stories are vastly different from another, as well as designs. each appears to be built separately; not just redecorated with varied placeables.

[Jester]

Wow arent you biased mate xDDD

Dozens of spells of DA? You know we have 29, right?

Over a hundred with Awekening if I happen to remember correctly.

Exactly 40 in DA2. That's over 3 dozens.

A sustained spell is a spell nonetheless. But even without sustained ones, that's still 33. Don't know where you pulled 29 from.

 

However, the experience of exploring Skyrim was awesome, and the game was huuuuge. It gave me so many hours before I considered it finished...

 

True. The game is large, I never denied that. I put 420 hours into it (according to Steam), but I did install some mods (no story/area/quest mods though, only graphical and mechanics),

 

Helpful link: http://elderscrolls....Quest_(Skyrim) 

 

 

The problem with it, is that it doesn't feel different in the slightest from guild quest lines.

 

Generally, only use the base perks for 1H, 2H, and armors; prefer the combat in my games to be fewer one shots. But one may design each character in a myriad of ways.

 

One shots? What difficulty were you playing?

 

They do get repetitive after a while. I've only been playing for a couple of weeks and I find myself thinking "here's the bridge piece again," for instance. I guess there are only so many ways to build a dungeon.

 

They didn't get repetitive for me design-wise. They actually look handcrafted as far as I could tell, and each one was different. It was repetitive gameplay-wise. All of them (maybe except Labirinthian) follow pretty much the same scheme. Go ahead on a linear path defeating enemies, get to the "puzzle" (Dragon Claw door or the other one with switching the statues), defeat the boss (a powerful Draugr or Dragon Priest), get the Word Wall and loot a chest with random stuff. Either the boss or the chest usually have the quest item, or the quest is to defeat the boss. 

 

Those saying Skyrim's main quest was weak story-wise need to check out Dawnguard. If there's anything that DLC proved, it's that Bethesda can write a decent story when they want.

 

Main quest was embarassingly weak. 

The Dawnguard quest was decent (although I played only Vampire side), and Dragonborn quest was probably the best of the 3 "main" stories. 

 

My main problem in story/quest design, in Skyrim, is that it felt like I was playing Far Cry 3, or one of Assassin's Creed games. Or some other open/semi open world action title. It followed a linear path, not giving the player any choices, and while it gives you freedom of movement and sometimes even a choice on how to perform a task, it doesn't offer any consequences of this. Get the task, do it, receive next task. You can't fail, you cannot make any decisions, you cannot affect the story at all. 

I don't mind it, in games like Far Cry 3 or Bioshock Infinite, because the story there is very well written, in provides emotions, introduces very strong and interesting characters, and beside all that - those games do not claim to be an RPG. Skyrim does.

 

I don't claim that Skyrim is a bad game. I'd probably give it a 7/10, with DLCs. (Just as a side-note, DA2 I'd probably rate as a 6/10 and DA:O as about 8.5/10 or even 9/10)

I do claim however, that it's terrible from an RPG standpoint. It has a weak story, weak characters, weak quest design and very poor dialogues. 

It has quite decent gameplay (in terms of combat - spells while limited allow for quite a few tricks, and you can actually build many different characters), very large world, a few questlines are interesting (Thieves guild and Dark Brotherhood probably being the best, along with DLC campaigns), decent graphics, solid music, and a good character progression system (if only they did something about overpowered high-level enemies...). Inventory and crafting system is mediocre. It shares it's faults with DA:O and DA2. managed to make it even worse - found equipment level up with your character. Random chests containing ebony/dragonbone items (or Silverite/Dragonbone in DA:O) are really awkward. In DA2 they completely broke it with just plain leveled items, where random sword was better from legendary blade found on a great pride demon. I believe that TES series started it, and other game developers should stop this trend, because it became very widespread now.

 

TL;DR version of both posts:

I don't think that BioWare (or any other RPG developer) should try to copy or inspire themselves with Skyrim - because while it's not a bad game, it's a bad RPG. That's because many elements that make the genre strong are poorly done, dumbed down or nonexistant.

 

If you want a look at a better open world RPG, take a look at Fallout: New Vegas. While it still have some problems, it has better and more memorable characters, stronger story and quest design, better done equipment system and balance and stronger dialogue. And most importantly - what you do in the world actually has some consequences.

[AlanC9]

As one that is Techless, I cannot say as to how many bridge designs are in the Toolkit. Yet, as with NWN1, the Toolkit is free, and every dungeon appears to have a unique blueprint.

My point was that the same elements keep reappearing in every dungeon, just in different orders. The maps are not identical, but they are repetitive. Plus, what JEster said.
 

Again, one has the freedom of choice. For several sessions, I skipped Enchanting, and only used what was available for purchase. Currently, I am planning on using Enchanting, but may skip the top perk, as it usually becomes too easy for me after that.

Sure, we have freedom. I find having such freedom to be actively annoying since I hate having to think about this sort of thing in the first place. In-character, my PC naturally wants to destroy enemies as quickly and efficiently as possible, even if that results in dull gameplay for me.

This is simply a non-resolvable problem I have with TES series design objectives. That's why I waited until Skyrim was going for $5.

[Elhanan]

Over a hundred with Awekening if I happen to remember correctly.
Exactly 40 in DA2. That's over 3 dozens.
A sustained spell is a spell nonetheless. But even without sustained ones, that's still 33. Don't know where you pulled 29 from.
 
True. The game is large, I never denied that. I put 420 hours into it (according to Steam), but I did install some mods (no story/area/quest mods though, only graphical and mechanics), 
 
The problem with it, is that it doesn't feel different in the slightest from guild quest lines.
 
One shots? What difficulty were you playing?
 
They didn't get repetitive for me design-wise. They actually look handcrafted as far as I could tell, and each one was different. It was repetitive gameplay-wise. All of them (maybe except Labirinthian) follow pretty much the same scheme. Go ahead on a linear path defeating enemies, get to the "puzzle" (Dragon Claw door or the other one with switching the statues), defeat the boss (a powerful Draugr or Dragon Priest), get the Word Wall and loot a chest with random stuff. Either the boss or the chest usually have the quest item, or the quest is to defeat the boss. 
 
Main quest was embarassingly weak. 
The Dawnguard quest was decent (although I played only Vampire side), and Dragonborn quest was probably the best of the 3 "main" stories. 
 
My main problem in story/quest design, in Skyrim, is that it felt like I was playing Far Cry 3, or one of Assassin's Creed games. Or some other open/semi open world action title. It followed a linear path, not giving the player any choices, and while it gives you freedom of movement and sometimes even a choice on how to perform a task, it doesn't offer any consequences of this. Get the task, do it, receive next task. You can't fail, you cannot make any decisions, you cannot affect the story at all. 
I don't mind it, in games like Far Cry 3 or Bioshock Infinite, because the story there is very well written, in provides emotions, introduces very strong and interesting characters, and beside all that - those games do not claim to be an RPG. Skyrim does.
 
I don't claim that Skyrim is a bad game. I'd probably give it a 7/10, with DLCs. (Just as a side-note, DA2 I'd probably rate as a 6/10 and DA:O as about 8.5/10 or even 9/10)
I do claim however, that it's terrible from an RPG standpoint. It has a weak story, weak characters, weak quest design and very poor dialogues. 
It has quite decent gameplay (in terms of combat - spells while limited allow for quite a few tricks, and you can actually build many different characters), very large world, a few questlines are interesting (Thieves guild and Dark Brotherhood probably being the best, along with DLC campaigns), decent graphics, solid music, and a good character progression system (if only they did something about overpowered high-level enemies...). Inventory and crafting system is mediocre. It shares it's faults with DA:O and DA2. managed to make it even worse - found equipment level up with your character. Random chests containing ebony/dragonbone items (or Silverite/Dragonbone in DA:O) are really awkward. In DA2 they completely broke it with just plain leveled items, where random sword was better from legendary blade found on a great pride demon. I believe that TES series started it, and other game developers should stop this trend, because it became very widespread now.
 
TL;DR version of both posts:
I don't think that BioWare (or any other RPG developer) should try to copy or inspire themselves with Skyrim - because while it's not a bad game, it's a bad RPG. That's because many elements that make the genre strong are poorly done, dumbed down or nonexistant.
 
If you want a look at a better open world RPG, take a look at Fallout: New Vegas. While it still have some problems, it has better and more memorable characters, stronger story and quest design, better done equipment system and balance and stronger dialogue. And most importantly - what you do in the world actually has some consequences.

I only play on Normal Difficulty; use two or three mods now to improve the challenges. The Difficulty Slider simply buffs the opposition while nerfing the PC; has nothing to do with tactics, strategy, etc, and does nor reflect a true challenge. Normal is fair on both sides.

By adding higher lvl Perks to 1H or 2H, this improves the Critical chance. I prefer to improve the skill itself and the weapon, but do not need the bonus Perks. That said, having the options are great for those that wish to slice and dice with ease.

That definition of tombs and dungeons may be somewhat applied to the genre as a whole, IMO. While some may not be as linear, I actually prefer it this way to keep on track, as I tend to play methodically.

And some have more narrow views of RPG's than I utilize; have been playing PnP since '75, and varied CRPG's since then, though mostly started frequently with older Gold Box D&D titles. One does not require detailed rules or mechanics to have a great RPG; nor choices, romances, etc. What we are able to get today is far more varied; options are good.

For a great example of Skyrim as a RPG, watch this series; Character over mechanics:

https://www.youtube....fJetcjAhl718NP

While it may not be for everyone, I recommend the first Chapter at least.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

They have taken many cues from Skyrim. Most of which are good cues.

 

For one, they have the amazing vistas, the large maps and areas, harvesting ingredients, map & compass UI...they are all very Skyrim like...

 

Though it would have been nice if Bioware looked at Skyrim armors and decided to take cues from that....Forsworn armor and Aela's side boob armor ftw ! 

[Cyonan]

lol - I empathize; can usually only recall a few actual names, and have to use the Wiki to select the ones I recall from how they are played in game.

Forelhost is introduced by a NPC that requests your help to aid one of the factions of the Civil War. Inside, one is met with the journal notes on an old Dragon sect that took their own lives, and that of their own families by poison.

Ragnvald is separated in three sections; skulls collected in two which are used as keys to enter just beyond the third.

Ironbind Barrow - the crypt which is being investigated by an adventurer and her Argonian companion. They seek treasure, though something else is also of value to one of them. This tomb empties to the side of a mountain, which can lead to other nearby ruins and tombs.

I recall these because their stories are vastly different from another, as well as designs. each appears to be built separately; not just redecorated with varied placeables.

 

I was more referring to the actual look and feel of the dungeons, not the stories surrounding them. The Nordic ruins all use the same exact style which would be fine normally, but there's really only 4 unique dungeon types in Skyrim: Nordic, Dwemer, Keep, and Cave/Mine.

 

It wouldn't be an issue if they had more types of dungeons in the game, but with the base game it feels like I'm seeing the same handful of dungeons over and over again with different dialogue and story added on top.

[TheInquisitor]

Hopefully they are influenced by Skyrim's exploration and not the story.

 

The story for Skyrim was so poor.

[Elhanan]

My point was that the same elements keep reappearing in every dungeon, just in different orders. The maps are not identical, but they are repetitive. Plus, what JEster said. 

Sure, we have freedom. I find having such freedom to be actively annoying since I hate having to think about this sort of thing in the first place. In-character, my PC naturally wants to destroy enemies as quickly and efficiently as possible, even if that results in dull gameplay for me.

This is simply a non-resolvable problem I have with TES series design objectives. That's why I waited until Skyrim was going for $5.

But the elements are not the same. They all have undead, a Word Wall, etc, but one is a historical maze as to the lore, another a puzzle to an ancient Lich, and the final a crypt of the guardian of a unique power and device. I can easily recall the differences from the indv stories. Yet, since the stroke, I am the one with the actual brain damage....



As far as options, if you wish to kill as effectively as possible, all of my Dragonborn characters use Stealth and Archery at start. Some may utilize 2H, magic, or whatever else if offered, but all can use a bow to kill at range. Recommended.

There are many effective builds. One uses Alchemy and Pickpocket; two Skills I have hardly touched at all. But if one build bores you, then select something else; do not blame the designer because the Player chooses to use something they know will create tedium.

[veeia]

I totally disagree that the NPCs and quests were boring or that Skyrim is a bad role -playing game. I have created really complex characters in it and had a lot of fun.

There are definitely elements I prefer in Dragon Age, and while Morrowind is prob my favorite game of all time, I'll take a Bioware game over a Beth...but I just honestly don't get why people are freaking out about UI or story or whatever.

Bioware has, I think, made it abundantly clear that the inspiration they are pulling from Skyrim is just a more immersive world via larger areas and more nonessential discoveries. They will fill them with Bioware stories, not Bethesda stories, and this won't affect the main game.

If it comes out and it's not good, it's not because of Skyrim, it's because Bioware failed to implement a sandbox element well. Skyrim is not the only sandbox game, it's just the best well known and bought, which is why it was specifically named.

A more interesting question to me is, can we realistically expect Bioware to balance the story and sandbox elements? Will the sandbox just feel like empty space, or will it add to the game? What level of reactivity and diversity can we expect in those areas and quests? I don't know the answers to those questions, but that's what's more in my mind when thinking about those elements of Inquisition's design and Skyrim.

[rocsage]

you mean the bunny hopping rubbish weightless rubbish that was DA2 combat?  Yea..hated it.

I see you've never played a 2h warrior or a force mage properly.

[AlanC9]

But the elements are not the same. They all have undead, a Word Wall, etc, but one is a historical maze as to the lore, another a puzzle to an ancient Lich, and the final a crypt of the guardian of a unique power and device. I can easily recall the differences from the indv stories. Yet, since the stroke, I am the one with the actual brain damage....

Heh. Yeah, if we don't think about what we're actually seeing and doing then the dungeons are quire different.

As far as options, if you wish to kill as effectively as possible, all of my Dragonborn characters use Stealth and Archery at start. Some may utilize 2H, magic, or whatever else if offered, but all can use a bow to kill at range. Recommended.

There are many effective builds. One uses Alchemy and Pickpocket; two Skills I have hardly touched at all. But if one build bores you, then select something else; do not blame the designer because the Player chooses to use something they know will create tedium.

That's really not what I was talking about. Sure, there are lots of ways to be effective. My point was that the TES games always force me into metagaming mode when deciding this stuff, both to avoid being overpowering and to avoid gimping my character.

[Sylvius the Mad]

I'm an explorer. I like to explore. I don't really care about combat or plot, so I thought Skyrim was spectacular. And I love modding.

I found it a bit heavy-handed in how it introduces the plot, and I'll agree the combat is terrible (it needed VATS), but overall I think it was terrific. I expect I will play it for some time (just as I still play DAO and KotOR and NWN and BG).

What I see Inquisition as having taken is the open world and the crafting.

I wish they'd copied the moddability, too.

[dch2404]

I wish they'd copied the moddability, too.

 

I reckon mods played a bigger part in Skyrim's success than most people realise. The timing was good because in 2011, the gap between PC hardware and console hardware was immense (e.g. 512 MB RAM on consoles vs the average PC of 8 GB at the time). The mod community, with all their fancy screenshots of ENB-enhanced games and cool character customisations, caused many people to switch to PC. There are still substantial numbers of people double-dipping and buying their second copy of Skyrim on Steam to this day. A game's fanbase is only so big so getting a fan to pay twice can be a big deal. Three years later and Skyrim is still in the top 10 most played PC games, not bad for a single player game.

[Chrom72]

I liked Skyrim a lot for what it was, but I can see where some didn't like it. The backstory and lore is excellent in Skyrim, but you really have to look for it, play the other games, and read a lot of the books to pick up on it. Bioware does a much better job of telling a story than Bethesda, but you'll never get the freedom of the Elder Scrolls series in a Bioware game, and that's just an unfortunate casualty of having a tightly focused story. I do see a lot of influence in DAI from Skyrim in the size of the various zones. The mods are really what brings Skyrim alive though, and it's a shame that Bioware won't give the same option for Inquisition. 

 

In any case, Morrowind is still my favorite Elder Scrolls game and was better than Skyrim in every way besides graphics (kind of a given considering how much older it is) and the combat. 

[Elhanan]

I liked Skyrim a lot for what it was, but I can see where some didn't like it. The backstory and lore is excellent in Skyrim, but you really have to look for it, play the other games, and read a lot of the books to pick up on it. Bioware does a much better job of telling a story than Bethesda, but you'll never get the freedom of the Elder Scrolls series in a Bioware game, and that's just an unfortunate casualty of having a tightly focused story. I do see a lot of influence in DAI from Skyrim in the size of the various zones. The mods are really what brings Skyrim alive though, and it's a shame that Bioware won't give the same option for Inquisition. 
 
In any case, Morrowind is still my favorite Elder Scrolls game and was better than Skyrim in every way besides graphics (kind of a given considering how much older it is) and the combat.

SkyWind should be released fairly soon, I believe.

[Gtdef]

I didn't really appreciate Skyrim till I played it on Legendary. Usually the way games are played in higher difficulty, is taking shortcuts to get the best gear, optimize buying abilities in the correct order for various encounters etc, and most of these are overkill. You can also do this on Skyrim's master. But Legendary is a whole different beast all together.

 

Makes the game about survival. You optimize to survive encounters so you can gather resources and increase other abilities. To do that you need to start with stealth and bow  (which makes bringing companion around a pain cause you cant sneak attack) and defeating every encounter in detail, then raising illusion to get invisibility to just have a chance at surviving in melee range. The you need some killing power, to start farming petty shards, so you need one handed skill for daggers, farming enchants for augmenting illusion cause your mana pool can't sustain so many invisibilities. Once that's out of the way, then get enchanting to 100 and start on farming price and smithing enchants. Getting the black star and farming humanoids, start buying and crafting. Then you have to venture into Dwemer ruins to get dwarven ingots. Once you get smithing at 100 then you need to start farming dragons for the marked for death shout and dragon bone/scales for crafts. Once you have the dragon scale light then you need to start farming the skill, which is an excellent time to raise restoration and block for the extra levels cause you need perks. And when you do all of these then you just took the first step to being god. Then you can do pretty much whatever you want, but this mode requires a maxed character of at least 40-45 lvl just to start playing the game as it is intended. It's exhausting but I've never played a game that I actually had to optimize for survival and think out of the box to beat encounters far ahead of my relative power.

 

No other rpg game can provide something even close to this experience. Forcing you to become good at things only to unlock different things and this whole back and forth.

[Chrom72]

SkyWind should be released fairly soon, I believe.

 

Thanks for reminding me, I had almost forgotten about SkyWind. I'm going to have a lot of fun with that.

[Eelectrica]

I reckon mods played a bigger part in Skyrim's success than most people realise. The timing was good because in 2011, the gap between PC hardware and console hardware was immense (e.g. 512 MB RAM on consoles vs the average PC of 8 GB at the time). The mod community, with all their fancy screenshots of ENB-enhanced games and cool character customisations, caused many people to switch to PC. There are still substantial numbers of people double-dipping and buying their second copy of Skyrim on Steam to this day. A game's fanbase is only so big so getting a fan to pay twice can be a big deal. Three years later and Skyrim is still in the top 10 most played PC games, not bad for a single player game.

Very true. I understand the reasons why the ycan't release a toolkit, with all the license restrictions etc, but at the same time, can't help but feel they are losing a lot of potential sales by not being able to include a toolkit. It's a pity for a for all the inspiration derived from Skyrim, A toolkit wasn't able to be one of them.

 

Witcher 3 I understand will have a toolkit, so it'll be interesting to see if that becomes the new 'skyrim'

[fhs33721]

I total ly disagree that the NPCs and quests were boring or that Skyrim is a bad role -playing game. I have created really complex characters in it and had a lot of fun.

Most NPCs completely lack any depth. Even the story-relevant ones at best say a dozen lines in the entire game. They are completely forgettable. I played Skyrim for about 200 hours and the only named NPCs whose name I still remember are:Ulfric stormcloak, Alduin, Aela, Serana, Lydia and the daedric princes. With a few expections the quests are repetetive and 80% of the time follow the formula of. Go to a ruin/cave/old grave, kill some bandits/Vampires(which are basically just bandits with a few extra abilities)/bears/frostbite spiders/undead and bring me <insert random quest item>.

There are some quests that are rather intruiging story-wise but those are few and drown in the sea of generic fetch quests with shallow story.