161 réponses à ce sujet

[Sidney]

from a combat realism standpoint, healing, especially instant ones, during combat is bs.

proponents can argue for healing from a gameplay experience standpoint, but this position nevertheless undermines the concept of combat.

Yes, the trinity of rpg, dps, tank and healing, jolly good fun, but it gets very problematic very quickly--left unchecked, healing mechanisms mean that manageable encounters ultimately degrade into a matter of grinding through enemy health.

Wow, long time industry top dog, installed hard enrage with tbc...I believe subsequent bosses inherit this mechanism as well?

 

I don't think you want to argue "realism" in a game with fireballs, guys hitting the ground so hard they cause micro-earthquakes and people doing pirouettes with daggers to kill people. Frankly, in light of most powers the "magic can close wounds" thing is pretty sensible.

 

The problem you talk about grinding but what a lack of healing does is turns not battles but dungeons into a grind. This is a way of making a dungeon "dangerous" by making the collectivity of the wear and tear a problem...not by making each individual fight more dangerous by having smarter or more lethal foes. So what we now get are the same trash mobs and the sheer mass of them accumulates enough damage fight to fight to be a problem.

[coldflame]

from a combat realism standpoint, healing, especially instant ones, during combat is bs.

proponents can argue for healing from a gameplay experience standpoint, but this position nevertheless undermines the concept of combat.

Yes, the trinity of rpg, dps, tank and healing, jolly good fun, but it gets very problematic very quickly--left unchecked, healing mechanisms mean that manageable encounters ultimately degrade into a matter of grinding through enemy health.

Wow, long time industry top dog, installed hard enrage with tbc...I believe subsequent bosses inherit this mechanism as well?

 

You talking about a fantasy game (DA) and realism in the same sentence?  It is a game with magic. As for the rest of you post, it is just your personal opinion and nothing else, because others might enjoy a game different from your idea of enjoyment.

[rocsage]

I don't think you want to argue "realism" in a game with fireballs, guys hitting the ground so hard they cause micro-earthquakes and people doing pirouettes with daggers to kill people. Frankly, in light of most powers the "magic can close wounds" thing is pretty sensible.

 

The problem you talk about grinding but what a lack of healing does is turns not battles but dungeons into a grind. This is a way of making a dungeon "dangerous" by making the collectivity of the wear and tear a problem...not by making each individual fight more dangerous by having smarter or more lethal foes. So what we now get are the same trash mobs and the sheer mass of them accumulates enough damage fight to fight to be a problem.

combat realism, not earthly physics realism.

Yes, I cannot shoot fireball, but cannons can.  Yes, I cannot sunder the earth, but bombs can.

combat realism means the sensation that you're in a blood bath with far-reaching consequences.

the error-effacing effects of in-combat healing reduces that sensation.

 

Never had an issue with post-combat regeneration--ffs, since when does 4 man operation require logistics?

[rocsage]

You talking about a fantasy game (DA) and realism in the same sentence?  It is a game with magic. As for the rest of you post, it is just your personal opinion and nothing else, because others might enjoy a game different from your idea of enjoyment.

combat realism, not earthly physics realism.

Yes, I cannot shoot fireball, but cannons can.  Yes, I cannot sunder the earth, but bombs can.

combat realism means the sensation that you're in a blood bath with far-reaching consequences.

the error-effacing effects of in-combat healing reduces that sensation.

[rocsage]

to counter healing mechanism abuse, potion and heal cd increased from 5 seconds to 30 seconds, from per type/tier to global.

to counter healing mechanism abuse, health regeneration has been nerfed into oblivion.

to counter healing mechanism abuse, assassins nearly 1-shot and steal your potion on higher difficulties, and mages wipe/near wipe within 5 seconds of conjuration completion.

to counter healing mechanism abuse, Arishock decides to fight fire with fire.

[HTTP 404]

I am curious to see how this game goes without healing.  I hate spamming potions and heal spells.  I prefer faster albeit harder fights.  Not long drawn out slug fests.

[makojoyriding]

Not really sure what they meant by "spamming" healing spells. The cooldown timers did their job - and occasionally made me panic because they were slowly ticking away while someone got slaughtered. Then again, I only used healing spells and potions out of sheer desperation to hopefully turn the tides, so I wasn't using them that all that often. (Not to mention the spells/potions sometimes didn't register because tactics pouted and screamed, "NO. PUMMEL ENEMIES FIRST.")

Still, it'll be interesting to see how combat goes with fewer healing spells and potions. It'll be more like an actual fight for survival than, in some cases, a slow grind towards murder. I just hope battles won't become total torture to get through whether or not you're prepared. Or if you stop babysitting your party for half a second.

[n7stormrunner]

Not really sure what they meant by "spamming" healing spells. The cooldown timers did their job - and occasionally made me panic because they were slowly ticking away while someone got slaughtered. Then again, I only used healing spells and potions out of sheer desperation to hopefully turn the tides, so I wasn't using them that all that often. (Not to mention the spells/potions sometimes didn't register because tactics pouted and screamed, "NO. PUMMEL ENEMIES FIRST.")

Still, it'll be interesting to see how combat goes with fewer healing spells and potions. It'll be more like an actual fight for survival than, in some cases, a slow grind towards murder. I just hope battles won't become total torture to get through whether or not you're prepared. Or if you stop babysitting your party for half a second.

 

 

if you stay on easy and take alot of trips back to camp you'll probably have few problems.... timed missions will suck though. I forsee a few nerfs, longer timers, or both shortly after release.

[DalishRanger]

This is ye olde way from BG1 when you were low level and took a few hits and lacked ready healing potions. It sucked for those of you who didn't live it. It is why the loss of both health regen and healers is I'm afraid gonna turn the game into a fight-camp-fight type thing. At least you don't have to sleep to get back magic missile and web.

 

The difference with the Baldur's Gate series though, is that in most places, you could rest so long as there weren't enemies about. Granted, there were some restricted areas and you ran the risk of being woken up by monsters or the guards/Flaming First (in the cities), but you still could, in a way, spam healing after combat. Still sucked and wasn't the same as full regen, but less tedious than having to backtrack to a camp if you're low on potions.

 

I'm still reserving judgement as I've lived through the old school days and liked the games just fine. Personally prefer health regen and I don't tend to focus on buffs/don't want to have to worry about that, but meh. As long as I'm not dying every 10 minutes or a handful of small combats don't take me like, an hour of fighting -> backtracking to heal -> fighting -> backtracking etc, I won't care overmuch.

[coldflame]

 

combat realism, not earthly physics realism.

Yes, I cannot shoot fireball, but cannons can.  Yes, I cannot sunder the earth, but bombs can.

combat realism means the sensation that you're in a blood bath with far-reaching consequences.

the error-effacing effects of in-combat healing reduces that sensation.

 

Again, it is a fantasy game where realism does not apply. You are still applying real-world logic to a fantasy game. It is magic for goodness sake.

[Mr.Hmm]

There is plenty of options to make a support class: buffing allies, debuffing enemies. In my opinion this is a far more interesting option than just a healer.

 

Very true, All you need is the healing potion since as a mage you have a wide array of powers for debuffing/buffing/crown control the battlefield. Plus we have tactical mode back.

 

It was a good decision to not make a healing class, but we will find that out when we play the game so until then I cant really say that's a good decision for sure

[Sylvius the Mad]

It's looking more and more like DA:I isn't going to be hitting my library.  I don't understand why they can't do this for some other game, why do they have to kill the best bits of the predecessor(s)....

I think this change to healing is fixing one of the biggest problems with DAO (obviously DA2 had it, too, but DA2 had bigger problems).

 

And I'm amazed BioWare is doing it.  I really didn't expect this - it makes me happy.

[Little Princess Peach]

I think what bioware did was a bad move, we can't even regain health after battle I know they want realism but it's a game it's not supposed to be that realistic casual gamers like my self are going to find the game difficult

[Hyperion]

I think what bioware did was a bad move, we can't even regain health after battle I know they want realism but it's a game it's not supposed to be that realistic casual gamers like my self are going to find the game difficult

There was another thread about roughly this same topic, and i'll say basically the same thing that I said in that thread, hold off judgements on how the combat system in DA:I will be. A lot of things are being changed for the combat system, not just healing being removed, and without an in depth understanding of how all these changes affect the game, you can't make accurate judgements on how any one of them will turn out. Yes, I know that BW themselves have said that the game will be more difficult but we as player will never actually know how it plays until we get our hands on it. 

[OMGsideboob]

Healing shouldn't have been done away with... RPGs are about Choice. People can choose to not use healing or potions. That's up to them. Doesn't mean that people that do are unskilled. It's just how they choose to play.

I have it on pre order. MOAR Leliana is enough to make me buy...

[DLaren]

I'm all for making games more difficult but it shouldn't have to be at the expense of someone's play-style; in this instance, my play-style.

 

I love playing as a healer -- not a support role -- a healer.

 

Give me an array of tools that allow me to keep my companions on their feet and I'll drag any group to the finish line no matter the odds -- take my tools away and I'm just another apostate mage with an identity crisis.

 

I won't press my 'panic button' yet because there's still a chance that Inquisition will give me enough tools to keep my companions upright; but if I end-up being forced into a generic 'fireballs & icicles' mage-build, then the minions of the Fade can have Thedas...I'll be in the Circle Tower, watching the world burn.

[Rivaini Rogue]

This could prove problematic...

[WillieStyle]

Healing shouldn't have been done away with... RPGs are about Choice. People can choose to not use healing or potions. That's up to them. Doesn't mean that people that do are unskilled. It's just how they choose to play.

I have it on pre order. MOAR Leliana is enough to make me buy...

 

That's not really viable.  If you make abundant healing spells available to some characters, then you have to balance enemies around these spells.  Otherwise, healers would trivialize the game.  However, once you balance in this way, healers become nearly mandatory (or you have characters spending every other action chugging health pots).  In my opinion, Bioware is correcting a flaw that has plagued Western RPGs for far too long.  

[rocsage]

Again, it is a fantasy game where realism does not reply. You are still applying real-world logic to a fantasy game. It is magic for goodness sake.

by that logic, plot doesn't need to make sense, and Gaider, among others, have wasted years of their lives in vain.

 

Fantasy game and magic do not exempt a game from being internally consistent and coherent as a closed system; if it's a world where mental prowess can manifest as fireball and lightning, so be it, but this premise doesn't automatically mean everything is allowed to look and feel like something painted by Salvador Dali without proper explanation.

 

Even in fade, self-perception, the spiritual equivalent of your stature, limits your ability to cross fade crevices, meaning dimensions still apply.

 

Combat realism, note my consistent juxtaposition of the two words, refers to another aspect of this internal consistency, one with a little subtlety.

 

Combat is lethal, mistakes are costly; the inane healing mechanisms undermine that sensation.

 

To compensate, enemies have grown unreasonably damaging, among other things.

[Arvaarad]

For people worried that lack of healers will make combat harder, you may be surprised.

When I started playing RPGs, I leaned heavily on healing. Then, one time I accidentally dismissed my only healer. Turned out that without them, combat was easier and more fun. Instead of having to play reactively, I could control the battlefield from the start, since I was no longer wasting a slot on a healer.

In place of the healer, I had access to more CC, which scaled way better than healing. I could stun a dinky level 1 mook, or a scary level 20 monster, and it removed all of their damage (and their CC) from the equation. Not like healing, which could only deal with the damage from the mook.

Perversely, I realized that having a healer was what made me need a healer, because they so drastically lowered my combat effectiveness. Without a healer, I kited less and died less, and generally had more fun.

[10K]

I loved playing a healer mage, well I guess I'll be just sticking to my rogue characters this go around :/

[Basement Cat]

Just my two cents: they seem to be going with a strong despair theme for DAI. The lack of healing and health regen is certainly going to drive the point home. Same thing if companions can die for good based on some of our decisions. I'm not too bothered by the change in mechanic since it seems to fit the theme they are going for. I'm very curious how it's going to play out.

 

From a role-playing stand point it would certainly give an incentive to cycle through companions: some may be too injured to continue the fight, so they must remain at home base until they are back on their feet. I'm seeing a lot of potential with this. In any case I plan to have fun, even if the game is knuckle bitingly frustrating because of the lack of healing.

[nisallik]

Well, as BioWare has already posted about this subject before, the encounters we will face will be easier than the previous games.  The reason being is because they don't have to design encounters to wipe your party to be challenging, they can just throw a lot of smaller encounters at you instead for a battle of attrition.  You will just need to decide when it is a good time to go back to camp to resupply/rest.  

[Spectre Impersonator]

You can heal at camps. So I'm gonna do it like have a battle-set up a camp - have a battle - set up a camp

 

The cowards way of inching forward.

That's how I went through DA2, injury-free.

[Sidney]

Well, as BioWare has already posted about this subject before, the encounters we will face will be easier than the previous games.  The reason being is because they don't have to design encounters to wipe your party to be challenging, they can just throw a lot of smaller encounters at you instead for a battle of attrition.  You will just need to decide when it is a good time to go back to camp to resupply/rest.  

 

 

Yeah but is this good? It isn't about the healing thing it is about the combat. now we have a lot of little trash mob fights that are specifically designed to do 10-20% damage.  It just sucks all the tension out of combat if I know I m under no threat by design and instead am supposed to feel the cumulative effects of combat but...since I can camp, I will likely never actually face that "threat". The whole strategy now boils down to I am at 22% health -- can I make through the next fight before I camp or not and a lot of that will be made less on rational calculations than saving and fighting if the effort to rest is too much backtracking or something.