161 réponses à ce sujet

[DiscoGhost]

knight enchanter will cast defensive spells.

[Dutchess]

According to it's description, some of the spells in the spirit tree can be used to heal and we already know that the Reaver has a healing ability. I assume there will be other spells and skills that can heal too. 

 

Wait, what? What about the creation tree? Did they just sabotage more of their own lore by changing the four schools of magic? Spirit magic never healed anything. Drain life was an entropy spell.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Wait, what? What about the creation tree? Did they just sabotage more of their own lore by changing the four schools of magic? Spirit magic never healed anything. Drain life was an entropy spell.

 

It is rather sad actually. I mean in games like the Elder Scrolls series, the magic tree and spells in the games have all changed from Arena to Skyrim and each time they put out good lore explanations why the magic system changed. For example with Mysticism, we had the debate about Necromancy in Oblivion with the inquiries and fightback, etc.

 

In Dragon Age there seems to be no such things. In DA:O, they had Arcane, Primal, Creation, Spirit and Entropy. In DA2, for some unknown reason not explained by codexes anywhere, Telekinesis became part of the Arcane school and Primal divided itself into Elemental & Primal.

 

Now in DA:I, Primal is all but gone replaced with Inferno, Winter and Storm. Creation is all but gone. Spirit still remains Spirit in nature. Entropy now seems to go under Necromancy.

 

One can make the argument that the Breach most probably changed and messed up the schools of magic.

 

However, given that we will have a prologue without the Breach and that people will not be able to just switch their magic foundations in a blink after the Breach took place, yeah, it seems Bioware is sabotaging their own lore. 

 

Its like Mass Effect all over again. No explanation on how, within the time span of two years or so, the classes lost all their power sets and adopted completely new ones. 

[Urazz]

I'm assuming that healing spells will be fairly limited in some fashion with being somewhat weak or having cooldowns to limit spamming.  It also wouldn't surprise me if they can only be used in combat as well to prevent people from spamming them out of combat to ensure they are at full health at all times.

[AshesEleven]

It is rather sad actually. I mean in games like the Elder Scrolls series, the magic tree and spells in the games have all changed from Arena to Skyrim and each time they put out good lore explanations why the magic system changed. For example with Mysticism, we had the debate about Necromancy in Oblivion with the inquiries and fightback, etc.

 

In Dragon Age there seems to be no such things. In DA:O, they had Arcane, Primal, Creation, Spirit and Entropy. In DA2, for some unknown reason not explained by codexes anywhere, Telekinesis became part of the Arcane school and Primal divided itself into Elemental & Primal.

 

Now in DA:I, Primal is all but gone replaced with Inferno, Winter and Storm. Creation is all but gone. Spirit still remains Spirit in nature. Entropy now seems to go under Necromancy.

 

One can make the argument that the Breach most probably changed and messed up the schools of magic.

 

However, given that we will have a prologue without the Breach and that people will not be able to just switch their magic foundations in a blink after the Breach took place, yeah, it seems Bioware is sabotaging their own lore. 

 

Its like Mass Effect all over again. No explanation on how, within the time span of two years or so, the classes lost all their power sets and adopted completely new ones. 

 

It's one of those situations where you have to separate lore from gameplay.  

[Dutchess]

It's one of those situations where you have to separate lore from gameplay.  

 

Except they didn't do that in DAO and had all these codex entries on the different schools of magic.

[In Exile]

It is rather sad actually. I mean in games like the Elder Scrolls series, the magic tree and spells in the games have all changed from Arena to Skyrim and each time they put out good lore explanations why the magic system changed. For example with Mysticism, we had the debate about Necromancy in Oblivion with the inquiries and fightback, etc.
 
In Dragon Age there seems to be no such things. In DA:O, they had Arcane, Primal, Creation, Spirit and Entropy. In DA2, for some unknown reason not explained by codexes anywhere, Telekinesis became part of the Arcane school and Primal divided itself into Elemental & Primal.
 
Now in DA:I, Primal is all but gone replaced with Inferno, Winter and Storm. Creation is all but gone. Spirit still remains Spirit in nature. Entropy now seems to go under Necromancy.
 
One can make the argument that the Breach most probably changed and messed up the schools of magic.
 
However, given that we will have a prologue without the Breach and that people will not be able to just switch their magic foundations in a blink after the Breach took place, yeah, it seems Bioware is sabotaging their own lore. 
 
Its like Mass Effect all over again. No explanation on how, within the time span of two years or so, the classes lost all their power sets and adopted completely new ones.

You're completely wrong about DA lore. The schools of magic were just taxonomy that was invested by circle scholars to try and classify nebulous magical powers into logical groups. They aren't true rules like D&D rule set stuff. They're just the opinion of a bunch of unreliable narrators.

No one complains that we've somehow retconned reality when we change our biological or scientific classification.

We already know that, for example, Flemeth was supposed to use magic totally unlike Circle magic and lore-wise so was Morrigan, except for the gameplay contrivance that she had the same spell base.

An alternative taxonomy might just be valid - using names like "energy spells" or "tissue spells" or even "icky" spells.

[rocsage]

Wait, what? What about the creation tree? Did they just sabotage more of their own lore by changing the four schools of magic? Spirit magic never healed anything. Drain life was an entropy spell.

http://dragonage.wik...ki/Death_Vortex

http://dragonage.wik...i/Transmutation

[Bayonet Hipshot]

You're completely wrong about DA lore. The schools of magic were just taxonomy that was invested by circle scholars to try and classify nebulous magical powers into logical groups. They aren't true rules like D&D rule set stuff. They're just the opinion of a bunch of unreliable narrators.

No one complains that we've somehow retconned reality when we change our biological or scientific classification.

We already know that, for example, Flemeth was supposed to use magic totally unlike Circle magic and lore-wise so was Morrigan, except for the gameplay contrivance that she had the same spell base.

An alternative taxonomy might just be valid - using names like "energy spells" or "tissue spells" or even "icky" spells.

 

How am I wrong ?

 

If schools of magic were truly taxonomies by Circle scholars, that would imply a few things.

 

First, there would be differences between magic practitioners in terms of magic schools. The difference may just be slight depending when you compare different Circles of Magi. However, the differences between the Circle and the Dalish and the Vashoth would be huge. 

 

The thing is we do not see this difference. We do not see Dalish Mage Inquisitor and Vashoth Mage Inquisitor use magic differently than Circle Mage Inquisitor. I am 100%+ certain that Dalish mages, Hedge mages and Vashoth mages use magic the same way the Circle mages do. There is no difference between ability usage even though the training between the three is vastly different. 

 

So it is not just a Circle taxonomy for if magical schools were just Circle taxonomies, those who disagreed with it or are not part of it or do not subscribe to it will use their own taxonomy. We rarely see this being true. 

 

What do you mean by change our biological or scientific classification ? No one changed them. Change implies total conversion of something to another. Old scientific and biological classification were superseded by new ones. Not everyone in the world uses metric. People worldwide still use old and traditional units. You can also convert between metric and the traditional unit systems. 

 

If you attempt to equate biological and scientific classification with magic school taxonomy, then there should be a way to convert between the different magical taxonomies. We have not seen this anywhere in game. We did not see any gameplay mechanic and we certainly did not see any lore books being written about this. I highly doubt that we can convert between DA:O, DA2 and DA:I magical taxonomies. 

 

Furthermore, DA2 started off around the same time as DA:O. Hawke & Bethany were from Lothering. Both were trained by their father Malcolm who was a Circle Mage yet their spells do not match the Mage Wardens who were Circle trained as well. 

 

DA:I takes place a few years after DA 2. You are telling me that in that short period of time, Circle scholars have reclassified the spells all over, published books and distributed the far and wide to the point that most mages in Thedas even those who are not from the Circle like our Dalish Mage Inquisitor who in fact, comes from a clan that has had little human contact or the Vashoth mage who has not been exposed to Circle training have learned the new classification system and adapted to it  ?   

 

To quote Cassandra :- Bullshit !

 

The magical schools in Thedas are the equivalent of abilities across Mass Effect trilogy. There is no actual taxonomy at work. Bioware simply puts whatever they want and then haphazardly change the lore with it with little to no consistency.

 

Except they didn't do that in DAO and had all these codex entries on the different schools of magic.

 

Ah yes, lore. We have dismissed the claims of its existence.

[Darkly Tranquil]

Can't say I'm much of a fan of the low healing, slow grind style of combat where your health gets whittled down through a series of individually pointless battles until a trash mob can finally one-shot you. I'd much rather more healing intensive high damage combats where even a single bad decision can kill a key party member and lead to a wipe. In that style of gameplay, every fight is intense and requires correct execution, not just the tenth battle when your characters have been worn down by a dozen previously unchallenging skirmishes. The holy trinity exists in RPGs for a reason, whenever designers try to defy it, combat becomes an unco-ordinated mess. One can only hope that it's not unbearably annoying, or I might only play DAI the once.

[In Exile]

How am I wrong ?
 
If schools of magic were truly taxonomies by Circle scholars, that would imply a few things.
 
First, there would be differences between magic practitioners in terms of magic schools. The difference may just be slight depending when you compare different Circles of Magi. However, the differences between the Circle and the Dalish and the Vashoth would be huge. 
 
The thing is we do not see this difference. We do not see Dalish Mage Inquisitor and Vashoth Mage Inquisitor use magic differently than Circle Mage Inquisitor. I am 100%+ certain that Dalish mages, Hedge mages and Vashoth mages use magic the same way the Circle mages do. There is no difference between ability usage even though the training between the three is vastly different. 
 
So it is not just a Circle taxonomy for if magical schools were just Circle taxonomies, those who disagreed with it or are not part of it or do not subscribe to it will use their own taxonomy. We rarely see this being true. 
 
What do you mean by change our biological or scientific classification ? No one changed them. Change implies total conversion of something to another. Old scientific and biological classification were superseded by new ones. Not everyone in the world uses metric. People worldwide still use old and traditional units. You can also convert between metric and the traditional unit systems. 
 
If you attempt to equate biological and scientific classification with magic school taxonomy, then there should be a way to convert between the different magical taxonomies. We have not seen this anywhere in game. We did not see any gameplay mechanic and we certainly did not see any lore books being written about this. I highly doubt that we can convert between DA:O, DA2 and DA:I magical taxonomies. 
 
Furthermore, DA2 started off around the same time as DA:O. Hawke & Bethany were from Lothering. Both were trained by their father Malcolm who was a Circle Mage yet their spells do not match the Mage Wardens who were Circle trained as well. 
 
DA:I takes place a few years after DA 2. You are telling me that in that short period of time, Circle scholars have reclassified the spells all over, published books and distributed the far and wide to the point that most mages in Thedas even those who are not from the Circle like our Dalish Mage Inquisitor who in fact, comes from a clan that has had little human contact or the Vashoth mage who has not been exposed to Circle training have learned the new classification system and adapted to it  ?   
 
To quote Cassandra :- Bullshit !
 
The magical schools in Thedas are the equivalent of abilities across Mass Effect trilogy. There is no actual taxonomy at work. Bioware simply puts whatever they want and then haphazardly change the lore with it with little to no consistency.
 


 
Ah yes, lore. We have dismissed the claims of its existence.

You're wrong again. We don't know anything about any non circle theory of magic as we've never been introduced to them. Specializations don't fall within a particular school of magic, unless you have an argument for what force magic or arcanewarrior should fit within.

We know for a fact that there are differences between different cultures if magic, as aside from the example with Flemeth we have the qunari spells in DA2 which do not clearly fit within any of the known taxonomies. Then there is the fact that the dark spawn have their own means of casting magic from the Taint. That's something part of the lore but no the codex because it isn't known to the rest of Thedas. We then have the "arcane" spells and the battlemage and keeper specialization from DA a which does not fit within the traditional scheme.

Saying that you're "sure for a fact " is not a response - it's a baseless assertion. We see keepers control trees. What type of spell is that? What type of existing taxonomic class is shape shifting? Morrigan turns into what are basically bees.

The fact that Bioware did not waste time with codices on an academic debate about the classification of magic does not mean that the codex is somehow a fundamental truth about reality.

As for DA2 what I am telling you is that the literal name if a tree of spells doesn't somehow mean academics did anything different. We know Newtonian mechanics is wrong but that doesn't somehow mean that engineers need to abandon what are simplifying assumptions. In the same way, the fact that fire and thunder spell trees were split in DA2 does not mean that whoever writes magical treatises threw out the notion of primal magic OR that primal magic is somehow a metaphysical truth about reality.

What I am telling you is that the name for a random grouping of spells in your skill tree has nothing to do with the lore or the codex.

[Wires_From_The_Wall]

Very sad news.Easy to wonder just how stupid and simplified the combat will be.

 

Easy to wonder how boring the spells in this game will be. Of course, lack of healing in and of itself isn't something that dooms or redeems spellcasting. But them implications bother me. When I hear of lack of healers, I also hear : " We don't want combat in DA:I to deal with this measure of complexity, depth and finesse."  It is bit of a suggestion towards terribly unambitious approach. 

 

I think every single fantasy RPG should be required, by some sort of an internet law, to carry out WiresFromTheWall's Patented Archer Check on Mages before they are allowed to even consider releasing the game:

 

Patented archer check is as such:

"Is your implementation of magery and idea of mages so unambitious and class-among-others that every spell they cast could conceivably pass as an attack by archer? Flaming arrow,poison arrow, flash bang arrow. Throw-jar-of-oil followed by flame arrow, arrow of paralyzing poison..

If yes, your idea of mages and spellcasting is completely irrelevant and unambitious. You don't need mages in your game and the said mages don't actually do anything to game mechanics that  anyone would find relevant.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Very sad news.Easy to wonder just how stupid and simplified the combat will be.

 

Easy to wonder how boring the spells in this game will be. Lack of healing in and of itself isn't something that dooms or redeems spellcasting. But them implications bother me. When I hear of lack of healers, I also hear : " We don't want combat in DA:I to deal with this measure of complexity, depth and finesse."  It is bit of a suggestion towards terribly unambitious approach. 

 

I think every single fantasy RPG should be required, by some sort of an internet law, to carry out WiresFromTheWall's Patented Archer Check on mMages before they are allowed to even consider releasing the game:

 

Patented archer check is as such:

"Is your implementation of magery and idea of mages so unambitious and class-among-others that every spell they cast could conceivably pass as an attack by archer? Flaming arrow,poison arrow, flash bang arrow. Throw-jar-of-oil followed by flame arrow..

If yes, your idea of mages and spellcasting is completely irrelevant and unambitious. You don't need mages in your game and the said mages don't actually do anything to game mechanics that  anyone would find relevant.

Well, the magic in this game apparently has defensive spells and necromantic abilities that an archer can't reasonably be expected to do.

[TheLittleBird]

Very sad news.Easy to wonder just how stupid and simplified the combat will be.

 

Easy to wonder how boring the spells in this game will be. Lack of healing in and of itself isn't something that dooms or redeems spellcasting. But them implications bother me. When I hear of lack of healers, I also hear : " We don't want combat in DA:I to deal with this measure of complexity, depth and finesse."  It is bit of a suggestion towards terribly unambitious approach. 

 

I think every single fantasy RPG should be required, by some sort of an internet law, to carry out WiresFromTheWall's Patented Archer Check on mMages before they are allowed to even consider releasing the game:

 

Patented archer check is as such:

"Is your implementation of magery and idea of mages so unambitious and class-among-others that every spell they cast could conceivably pass as an attack by archer? Flaming arrow,poison arrow, flash bang arrow. Throw-jar-of-oil followed by flame arrow..

If yes, your idea of mages and spellcasting is completely irrelevant and unambitious. You don't need mages in your game and the said mages don't actually do anything to game mechanics that  anyone would find relevant.

 

And in come the ice walls, the Rift-magic spells, the blades of arcane force, the defensive spells, etc.

Healing as it was in previous DA games isn't required for a deep and rich combat system. In fact, I'd say healing is quite the easy way for many a developer to go to give mages a supportive role in combat.

[AlanC9]

It is rather sad actually. I mean in games like the Elder Scrolls series, the magic tree and spells in the games have all changed from Arena to Skyrim and each time they put out good lore explanations why the magic system changed. For example with Mysticism, we had the debate about Necromancy in Oblivion with the inquiries and fightback, etc.

Did they explain why the teleportation magic went away?

[rocsage]

Did they explain why the teleportation magic went away?

quite the contrary, teleportation magic is coming to players via fade rush.

the things I could do to kuroko from <<A Certain Scientific Railgun>>...

[Wires_From_The_Wall]

And in come the ice walls, the Rift-magic spells, the blades of arcane force, the defensive spells, etc.

 

 

To me, all that kinda sums up what so often is wrong with spellcasting in modern single player RPGs. Usually casting them blades of Arcade force is  like 17% less epic and rewarding  than hitting your enemy with a nice, sturdy oaken shield.  

Arcade Blade: Mage conjures a jagged blade of pure nether energies to slice his foes for 33 damage!! < - Boring MMO crap

Frost Bolt: Casts an arrow of frozen ices for 19 damages! Also slows down your enemy! < - Boring MMO crap 

Massive Mind Reap of Hells -> Actually have mage travel inside mind of your enemy, enter memory of enemy's  childhood. have your mage equip a dagger  and kill mother of your enemy  with a dagger, then leave his mind and return to field of battle proceed to  teleport the enemy 1000 feet above the ground and watch him fall while losing his sanity  < -  Proper spell!

 

Ever since forever, (Let's say mid 00s) single player RPGs have been ridiculously boring when it comes to all things magery.  They get treatment of being a class among others. Even pure single player games for some weird reason have forgotten they don't necessarily have to be stuck with this  idea that for some reason, mages need to be a class among others. I see no reason why mages should not be  something*entirely different* or a class above others. Single player games have forgotten they don't absolutely NEED class balance in same sense MMORPGs or multi player in general does.  

 

Mage Vs Mage duels of BG2, with each stripping spell defenses of another, slowing time, unleashing crazy insta-death spells once defenses were removed.. THIS felt much closer to how mages should be treated in (predominantly) single player RPG. In BG2, I really liked how easily and often it felt natural, proper, wise and necessary for mage to start dueling the enemy mage, while warriors and archers and similar irrelevant meatsacks did their own small fights around em!

 

 

All of the above is touch off topic, I speak a bit more of mages in general terms, bit less about DA:I casting. Some of the above is pretty relevant tho I bet/fear.

[n7stormrunner]

Did they explain why the teleportation magic went away?

 

 

 teleportation magic doesn't and never did exist in DA lorewise, it was sleight of hand . they turned invisible turn ran to the spot they reappeared blame DA2 being rushed for it seeming otherwise.

[Joseph Warrick]

I like the idea that spell grouping (and other categorizations, such as demons) is like that as made by people in-game (one "First Enchanter Josephus" in this case), rather than being a game truth as written by the authors. It's a lot more true to life that the schools of magic laid out in DAO are just the schools taught by the circle - the circle curriculum, as it were, designed by Josephus, and thus incomplete by necessity because Josephus is not omniscient. It gives the world freedom to expand and the gameplay a lot of room for improvement.

 

More on topic, I think it's cool there is no healing class. A healing class always becomes obligatory in the group and the whole gameplay is affected to account for that.

[Bekkael]

 

More on topic, I think it's cool there is no healing class. A healing class always becomes obligatory in the group and the whole gameplay is affected to account for that.

 

I'm wondering what the reaction would be if I were to change your sentence slightly? "A warrior class always becomes obligatory and the whole gameplay is affected to account for that."

 

I can't see many people being happy if sword and shield warrior, or 2 handed warrior were completely removed from the game. Just because it isn't your or other's favorite class type it is tolerated and lauded. I loved playing a healer for roleplaying reasons (same with blood mage), not just gameplay, but my roleplaying options have now changed because of reasons.

 

It seems a lot of people are rejoicing over this, but I hope some of you will allow that there are also those of us who are severely disappointed and upset by this change, for reasons of both gameplay AND roleplay.

[Grayvisions]

Arguments about them having to balance around healing spells, if they were added, prove themselves false. Those who are making this argument forget that a game's combat is balanced around every facet of its elements; to admit balancing around healing spells, likewise admits to balancing around a lack of them. Whether one makes a monster hit for thousands but allows healing, or removes healing but nerfs the damage to manageable levels without it, the ultimate result is the same and boils down to arbitrary number fondling.

 

The only thing removing healing does is remove a play-style. That's one less 'role' a player can take in their party if they'd wanted to. I don't consider that a good thing. That said, if there are ways to play supportive characters despite that, I'll still enjoy the combat, so I'm waiting to play before I make a final decision.

[Arvaarad]

And in come the ice walls, the Rift-magic spells, the blades of arcane force, the defensive spells, etc.
Healing as it was in previous DA games isn't required for a deep and rich combat system. In fact, I'd say healing is quite the easy way for many a developer to go to give mages a supportive role in combat.

+1. Healing is the friendly version an auto-attack. All it does is change someone's hp. It doesn't make my position better, it doesn't prevent enemies from hitting me again, it doesn't help end the fight.

Healing is one of the simplest mechanics in the game. Reducing it runs no risk of simplifying combat.

[Icy Magebane]

 teleportation magic doesn't and never did exist in DA lorewise, it was sleight of hand . they turned invisible turn ran to the spot they reappeared blame DA2 being rushed for it seeming otherwise.

I don't care how many times I hear it, that explanation will always seem very weak to me.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Did they explain why the teleportation magic went away?

In TES? It's still there. Just ask that incredibly annoying Dunmer necromancer in the tomb near High Hrothgar.

 

In Dragon Age? It's also still there, such as it is.

[Neverwinter_Knight77]

If there's no healer, then screw bringing a mage along. My crew would be Varric, Iron Bull, and Blackwall. Team BAMF, DAI Edition.