833 réponses à ce sujet

[Lulupab]

I like him and the tragedy attached to his character. His romance feels real as well, he doesn't worship Hawke like the rest of romances and somethings are important than love.

[themikefest]

I have no reason to like him.

[Hydwn]

David Gaider, his creator, liked him.  I think he's a little frustrated explaining Anders to the fans.  He was intended to be a sympathetic, though tragic, figure.  His cause was just when he was just rescuing mages, but when he went over the edge it's implied to have been Justice's doing, not his.

 

I liked him, though I got a little bored with him at the end because his unique skillset means you have to always have him in party.  I kind of wish Merrill had healing magic so I could have a bit more variety.  

[FiveThreeTen]

I don't hate him, he is a great portrayal of "all or nothing". DA2 Anders has a few moments when he manifests some of his DAA's personality but even then, you can tell he has sort of "given up", he feels cornered (partly his fault, partly his apostate/warden condition). He is quite aggressive and judgemental with others (Sebastian, Merrill, Isabela off the top of my head).

 

I don't support his action at the end but I generally can't bring myself to kill him. I never let him join the final fight though. And his dialogue if you let him join you implies that Hawke pardons him or approves.

His character is quite tragic, his depression, obsession at the end and his refusal to be helped make me pity him in a way.

[Lulupab]

I don't hate him, he is a great portrayal of "all or nothing". DA2 Anders has a few moments when he manifests some of his DAA's personality but even then, you can tell he has sort of "given up", he feels cornered (partly his fault, partly his apostate/warden condition). He is quite aggressive and judgemental with others (Sebastian, Merrill, Isabela off the top of my head).
 
I don't support his action at the end but I generally can't bring myself to kill him. I never let him join the final fight though. And his dialogue if you let him join you implies that Hawke pardons him or approves.
His character is quite tragic, his depression, obsession at the end and his refusal to be helped make me pity him in a way.

You can only condone/approve what Anders does at the end if he is 100% friend, his quest "Justice" completed and a specific dialogue tied to his friendship is chosen. Otherwise you spare Anders to help you protect the mages aka giving him a chance to redeem himself, you do pardon him but you don't approve in this situation.

Isabela, Bethany and Varric are the only companions Anders is quite friendly with and never judges them, in fact Anders and Varric are the only companions who don't judge Isabela's selfishness about the tome and disappearance at the end of act 2.

[LadyKarrakaz]

I liked Anders as a companion in Awakening.

 

I have pity for what he became in DA 2. Can't say I still like him, but I cannot hate him.

 

Definitely, a very well written character, if only for all the different reactions he creates.

[FiveThreeTen]

You can only condone/approve what Anders does at the end if he is 100% friend, his quest "Justice" completed and a specific dialogue tied to his friendship is chosen. Otherwise you spare Anders to help you protect the mages aka giving him a chance to redeem himself, you do pardon him but you don't approve in this situation.

Isabela, Bethany and Varric are the only companions Anders is quite friendly with and never judges them, in fact Anders and Varric are the only companions who don't judge Isabela's selfishness about the tome and disappearance at the end of act 2.

Okay, I didn't know that. I never completed his quest Justice at 100%, I stopped when he asked Hawke to distract Grand Cleric Elthina and refused to help him further.That's why the dialogue when he comes back in the Gallow seemed so wrong if you accept.

 

I do recall Anders calling Isabela a "side-dish" if you romance both of them XD

[Geth Supremacy]

[Dutchess]

I don't like him, no. He was a self-centered egoistical douche. He has the nerve to call Fenris a dog and state Hawke should go for someone more open-minded (aka mr Anders himself) when Hawke is romancing Fenris right after lying to Hawke's face about a potion that can separate him from Justice and thereby making Hawke an accomplice in his terrorist attack. He is happy when Hawke betrays Fenris and hands him over to Danarius, condemning him to a life of slavery and abuse. Some justice right there. Anders does not represent Justice at all, nor is he an empathetic person. All he cares about is that very specific group he himself belongs to. The suffering of other innocent people and their deaths don't mean a thing to him. He is a bad person and well beyond saving.

[Riven326]

I liked Justice more.

[Lulupab]

I don't like him, no.

While you are totally entitled to your opinion, I need to point out some things.

He was a self-centered egoistical douche. He has the nerve to call Fenris a dog and state Hawke should go for someone more open-minded

Most companions do that, they judge your romance. Merril and Sebastian are the only ones who don't give a damn about who you romance.

when Hawke is romancing Fenris right after lying to Hawke's face about a potion that can separate him from Justice and thereby making Hawke an accomplice in his terrorist attack.

Actually he does that in a way that no one else but him can be blamed for it and that is how its acknowledged in the story, neither Hawke nor anyone else was an accomplice to Anders.

He is happy when Hawke betrays Fenris and hands him over to Danarius, condemning him to a life of slavery and abuse. Some justice right there.

By looking at the party banter, Fenris always openly insults Anders, calls him monster, abomination etc... and proclaims he must be locked up. This goes on for 8 years prior to what happens with Danarius. Anders for the most part ignores Fenris's comments and never insults back. When Hawke chooses to sell Fenris which is 100% on Hawke, Anders is like "good riddance, now you are locked up"

Anders does not represent Justice at all, nor is he an empathetic person. All he cares about is that very specific group he himself belongs to. The suffering of other innocent people and their deaths don't mean a thing to him. He is a bad person and well beyond saving.

Jennifer Hepler describes the choice of keeping Anders alive as "poetic justice", as he would have to face and suffer the knowledge of the lives he took. She also states that he wishes death so that the people whom he killed receive justice as well. Based on the fact that I value what his character's writer says more than random opinions, this means Anders indeed cares for the lives he took and does not discriminate when it comes to Justice.

Overall Anders definitely leaves a lot of room for some people to hate him but not for all the reasons you mentioned. Because of his merger with Justice he is too focused and motivated for cause of mages and that can be problematic.

[Geth Supremacy]

I do like Bioware for letting me kill him.  Would have rather fought, don't stab people in the back....for Anders though?  I made an exception....i mean it was the least I could do after what he made me part of.  And now I never have to listen to his crying and bitching ever again .

 

If he ever manned up at any point I might have liked him....I already don't like the Templars, the Chantry is....ehhhh.....but he had to act like he did so......

[Riven326]

I understood his plight, but I did not agree with most of what he said. Mages are incredibly dangerous not just to other people but also to themselves. And there is truth in what Fenris says about mages becoming magisters (and using blood magic if they feel the need is great enough) if permitted to watch over themselves. Are the templars perfect? Far from it. But most of them serve the greater good and do what they must to keep people safe.

 

Anders ignores this and only focuses on the injustice done to mages at the hands of the templars. He has every right to be angry about that. But going from being angry to saying "it's us or them" is a very dangerous path to walk. It's not black and white. It is a complex issue. As for me killing him, I feel he deserves it. He murdered innocent people to start a war and, ironically, proved exactly why the templars are needed.

[Dutchess]

Most companions do that, they judge your romance. Merril and Sebastian are the only ones who don't give a damn about who you romance.

 

Varric warns you in every case and tells you to be careful. Other than that, none of the companions engage Hawke in dialogue and go: YOU SHOULD HAVE PICKED MEEEEEEE! Isabela tells a joke about a man with chains if you romance Fenris and warns guy Hawke not to hurt Merrill or she'll cut off his balls (not sure what she does with female Hawke). Fenris NEVER tells Hawke what he/she should do in the love department, even if Hawke moves on to someone else after sleeping with him. I just checked the wiki, and this is the only dialogue on the subject, and it is banter between Fenris and Anders:

 

(If Hawke spent the night with Fenris, but moved on to Anders)

Fenris: You... are living with Hawke now?

Anders: What's it to you?

Fenris: Be good to him/her. Break his/her heart, and I will kill you.

 

Now compare THAT to THIS:

 

(If Hawke romanced Fenris and with Fenris in the party and didn't reject Anders in Act 1)

Anders: I know it isn't my place to criticize, but...

Anders: Are you sure about Fenris?

Anders: He seems less a man to me than a wild dog.

Hawke: You just don't know him.

Anders: I know as much as I'm ever likely to.

Fenris: That's right, mage.

Anders: He has let one bad experience color his whole world. Surely you want someone more openminded?

Fenris: A mage and a hypocrite. What company you keep.

 

And do tell me again how Anders is not the giant jerk in this.
 

 

Actually he does that in a way that no one else but him can be blamed for it and that is how its acknowledged in the story, neither Hawke nor anyone else was an accomplice to Anders.

 

Except that Cassandra went in the interrogation with Varric believing Hawke a full accomplice to Anders' plan. Now where would she get that idea? If Hawke helped collect the ingredients for the bomb and distracted Elthina while Anders planted it, Hawke most definitely shares guilt in the act. That Anders claims responsibility and draws attention towards himself right after the explosion does not change that. After the dust had settled, people like Cassandra most definitely held Hawke responsible. Excluding that, any Hawke with some sense of decency would feel guilty about what had happened and what he/she had helped accomplish.

 

 

By looking at the party banter, Fenris always openly insults Anders, calls him monster, abomination etc... and proclaims he must be locked up. This goes on for 8 years prior to what happens with Danarius. Anders for the most part ignores Fenris's comments and never insults back. When Hawke chooses to sell Fenris which is 100% on Hawke, Anders is like "good riddance, now you are locked up"

 

Anders is an abomination. He literally is one. Even so, Fenris does not call him "monster, etc...". He calls Merrill a monster once, not Anders. There is this on the abomination thing:

 

Fenris: Did I hear correctly? You are an... abomination?

Anders: Why don't you shout? I don't think everyone heard you.

Fenris: Do you see yourself as harmless, then? An abomination who would never harm someone?

Anders: Like ripping someone's heart out of his chest?

Fenris: I did that at the behest of no demon.

Anders: So we agree that it doesn't take a demon for someone to be a vicious killer? Good.

 

Other than that it is bickering about the risk of mages getting possessed, using blood magic, etc. and Anders claiming all are innocent and should be helped. There's this lovely one after Dissent:

 

Fenris: I seem to recall you saying something a while ago...

Anders: Shut up.

Fenris: "I can control it." Wasn't that what you said?

Anders: So help me...

 

But that is so wonderfully accurate that I don't see how this is Fenris being unfair, as Anders has just proven he is EXACTLY as dangerous as Fenris suspected and claims about abominations. So, sorry, try again. No continuous insults from Fenris' side that poor sweet Anders has to suffer with wounded dignity. Maybe look at the banter again?

 

http://dragonage.wik...Fenris/Dialogue

 

 

Jennifer Hepler describes the choice of keeping Anders alive as "poetic justice", as he would have to face and suffer the knowledge of the lives he took. She also states that he wishes death so that the people whom he killed receive justice as well. Based on the fact that I value what his character's writer says more than random opinions, this means Anders indeed cares for the lives he took and does not discriminate when it comes to Justice.

Overall Anders definitely leaves a lot of room for some people to hate him but not for all the reasons you mentioned. Because of his merger with Justice he is too focused and motivated for cause of mages and that can be problematic.

 

He wants to die so he can be a martyr, at least when friended. I think on the rivalry path he has some more decency to feel guilty and realizes he is out of control. I don't believe he will suffer under the death of Elthina and the other priestesses when Hawke did the friendship path. He feels very much justified in his actions then and will just continue to fight for mages and stomping on everybody else who happens to be in the way for that. I'd rather serve justice than "poetic justice" because at least then he can't blow up more innocent people to prove a point.

 

[Lazarillo]

As I mentioned in the other Anders topic currently making the rounds, I felt like he was wasted potential, more than anything.  He was somewhat inconsistent, being basically nothing like his Awakening version, but the obvious explanation of his Abomination-ness is never really raised, and in some ways outright denied by the fact that did the whole multiple personality thing...though that issue is also portrayed rather inconsistently.

 

He was also kind of shallow.  He has a line in Act III where you can point out that his obsession for his cause is screwing up his life and he'll reply "My cause is all I am!" or something quite similar, and I think it's supposed to be tragic or meaningful or the like but for me it was more just kind of sadly funny because in a meta-sense I just thought "yeah, that's really all there is to this character".  Again, this could've been made a lot more interesting by focusing on the idea that he's really Justice in an Anders-suit, but for whatever reason, they weren't willing to commit to the character that way.

[Chernaya]

There are plenty of people who like him, such as me. There are also plenty of people who dislike him, for legit reasons. He's a really divisive character, but also a really interesting one. 

[DracoAngel]

I liked Anders at the beginning of DA2 and in Awakenings. But as DA2 progresses he becomes nothing but whiny and hypocritical. His attitude of "death to all templars, free all the mages!" grows wearing as he doesn't shut up about it. And then feels betrayed if you don't have his exact same opinion on the matter. And seeing as I sit on the white picket fence when it comes to the Mage/Templar conflict (even as playing a mage, very seldom do I play as anything else), he and I tend to butt heads.

 

In DA2 he has his moments where he is charming, sweet and funny. The Anders that I fell in love with in Awakenings. But it was too over-shadowed by his moodiness.

 

There are plenty of people who like him, and plenty of people who don't. Some see him as tragic (which I can get), others like myself see him as whiny.

[Lulupab]

Text that mostly hurt my eyes but I managed to read it...

I have posted this on many Anders threads because people are going either "OMG HE'S AN EVIL MURDERING BASTARD" or "OMG FINALLY SOMEONE BLEW UP THE CHANTRY" and missing the bloody point: that Anders himself never questioned that what he did was wrong. He fully acknowledges that his actions were murder, and were morally contemptible, and that justice was required of him for what he did. What he understood is that it wasn't about right or wrong, it was about necessity. He believed that the system of imprisoning mages within Circles, under the watch of the Chantry's templars, was wrong, and would accept nothing less than separation from chantry. And with that, he understood that unless someone was willing to take drastic measures, then nothing ever would change. He knew that the templars would rise against mages everywhere for his action, and that therefore all the mages locked within Circle towers would be forced to rise up against the templars in order to save themselves. By his actions, no mages would be able to take, say, Wynne's position that the templars and Circles are necessary, except for those mages who hated their own magic and wanted to embrace imprisonment or even suicide. They would have to either submit to templar tyranny, or fight to save their own lives. So he removed any stalemate--"there can be no compromise"--in the name of ending an indisputably broken system that served no one.

Anders does NOT say anywhere, clearly or otherwise, that he acted to become a martyr. What he does say is that he acted specifically to remove any chance for compromise. He KNEW that what he did was murder, and he knew it was wrong, and he knew that he had to pay for it. In this, he was a tragic figure, taking it upon himself to be the reviled murderer so that other people would have the freedom to condemn his actions. Like it or not, that is a very realistic, real-world scenario. For every Martin Luther King or Anne Frank or Rosa Parks or Gandhi you see in the world, there are people with blood on their hands who gave them and rest of the world the opportunity to take the moral high road. Their actions ARE despicable, but that doesn't make them any less necessary. This is the point that the rest of us are missing, from our very comfortable positions in life: being able to take the high road and condemn the actions of murderous freedom fighters is, sometimes, not recognized for what it is: a luxury that we would NOT HAVE if not for those murderers giving the rest of the world something to rally around.

[Neria Rose]

I love Anders. He's my favorite romance in DA2, although it took me a couple of playthroughs for him to become so.

[Xilizhra]

Anders does NOT say anywhere, clearly or otherwise, that he acted to become a martyr. What he does say is that he acted specifically to remove any chance for compromise. He KNEW that what he did was murder, and he knew it was wrong, and he knew that he had to pay for it. In this, he was a tragic figure, taking it upon himself to be the reviled murderer so that other people would have the freedom to condemn his actions. Like it or not, that is a very realistic, real-world scenario. For every Martin Luther King or Anne Frank or Rosa Parks or Gandhi you see in the world, there are people with blood on their hands who gave them and rest of the world the opportunity to take the moral high road. Their actions ARE despicable, but that doesn't make them any less necessary. This is the point that the rest of us are missing, from our very comfortable positions in life: being able to take the high road and condemn the actions of murderous freedom fighters is, sometimes, not recognized for what it is: a luxury that we would NOT HAVE if not for those murderers giving the rest of the world something to rally around.

To be fair, violent revolutions rarely, in and of themselves, lead to lasting positive change. When they succeed, more often than not, the pattern in our world has been for the former oppressed to become the new oppressors, and exactly that happened after Andraste in Thedas. I do think that the mages' secession from the Chantry was necessary and just, but this kind of thing shouldn't be a desirable end, and when it does happen, it must be conducted with great care.

 

As for Anders, I quite like him and can easily empathize with him, at least his Awakening self who ran away and hid from injustice and acted outwardly like everything was fine, but contained a seething cauldron of directionless rage beneath. I have not, myself, met anyone who'd be my equivalent of Justice, but I admire Anders' conviction and selflessness. I would not have done what he did to the Chantry, but I'm willing to make the best of it.

[Ophir147]

I like Awakening Anders as a person and a friend. I like DA2 Anders as a character. He's really tragic and ultimately sympathetic, if misguided.

[Xilizhra]

I like Awakening Anders as a person and a friend. I like DA2 Anders as a character. He's really tragic and ultimately sympathetic, if misguided.

I prefer to subvert his tragedy by bringing him out of the darkness to continue to fight by my side.

[bazzag]

I liked Anders in awakening. and although im not the biggest fan of him in DA2, there are those i dislike more (i'm looking at you sebastian). I suppose the big thing with Anders in DA2 is how much of what he does and his opinions are his and how much of it is Justice/Vengeance getting hold of Anders mind and soul.

 

I dunno, maybe its because in DA2 he feels like a hardcore Libertarian whereas i'm more of an Aequitarian, and politics is getting in the way of Ander's character.