Elthina was an ally of Meredith through negligence, and the Circle was already going to be attacked; Anders didn't cause the Annulment per se, only made it happen at a more convenient time (Karras, if he's alive, will speak of Meredith's plans for it at the beginning of Act 3), for a reason that couldn't be justified or swept under the rug.
What were those plans? It seems like Elthina (whom Anders intentionally killed) was the only obstacle to Meredith invoking the right.
What were those plans? It seems like Elthina (whom Anders intentionally killed) was the only obstacle to Meredith invoking the right.
Meredith was actually going behind Elthina's back for it.
Anders is one of the best characters in Dragon Age. For anyone who calls him whiny and a chronic complainer doesn't truly understand the plight that he and his own kin are going through. When you're radically profiled and are subjected to segregation from the rest of the population can ruffled up anyone's feathers.
Just think of it this way. Put on Anders shoes and start walking around Thedas as a mage... having to fight against the Chantries soldiers at every whim to keep your freedom, and from getting captured, and thrown into a tower where it would be your permanent home for the rest of your life.
Anders - Constantly breaking the law and thinking that every single mage is like you in how they feel. Why do you think Templars start to tighten control? Door knobs like Anders and Rhys constantly doing what ever the hell they feel like to the detriment many mages. Total misconception and total spelled out in the game that the over all majority of the mages were not hard line, we must be free kind of people. Anders was a selfish prig.
Just think of it this way. Put on Anders shoes and start walking around Thedas as a mage... having to fight against the Chantries soldiers at every whim to keep your freedom, and from getting captured, and thrown into a tower where it would be your permanent home for the rest of your life.
Yeah, that just makes me hate him more.
Free mages put others at risk as well as themselves just by virtue of being a mage, so it is a very selfish thing to fight the Templars instead of choosing to make the Circle your new home. As far as living conditions go, you would most likely be better off than the average, "free" citizen of Thedas.
Worse yet, Anders insists to shove this FREEEEDAHHHM!!!-nonsense down the throat of those who do not want it.
I reject the notion that there is any "plight" of mages.
Meredith was actually going behind Elthina's back for it.
Elthina actively rebuked both Orsino and Meredith and told them to get along. Meredith could essentially not invoke the right without the approval of Elthina. That all changed when the idiot Anders murdered one of the few moderates that was willing to stick up for mages in a town full of blood mages and abominations.
Elthina actively rebuked both Orsino and Meredith and told them to get along. Meredith could essentially not invoke the right without the approval of Elthina. That all changed when the idiot Anders murdered one of the few moderates that was willing to stick up for mages in a town full of blood mages and abominations.
Meredith planned to get the Divine's sanction. While this wouldn't actually work, neither Anders nor Hawke has any way of knowing that when the only contact with the Divine has been through a threat to declare war on the city if templar control slipped.
Also, Elthina never stuck up for mages, just sat on her hands the whole time.
@topic: Sure, I like Anders, he saved Bethany in the Deep Roads, in my playthrough.
Yeah, that just makes me hate him more.
Free mages put others at risk as well as themselves just by virtue of being a mage, so it is a very selfish thing to fight the Templars instead of choosing to make the Circle your new home. As far as living conditions go, you would most likely be better off than the average, "free" citizen of Thedas.
Worse yet, Anders insists to shove this FREEEEDAHHHM!!!-nonsense down the throat of those who do not want it.
I reject the notion that there is any "plight" of mages.
I think the problem is because we're never shown the abuses of the Templars to the mages, nor the actual living conditions, especially of the Gallows. I mean think about it, you're stuck in one place from near birth to death, discouraged from having sexual relations, or relationships (not that they don't happen), and just generally on house arrest for life. And for what? For being born with the potential to cause harm; you personally haven't done anything yet. We see the Circle Tower in DA:O post Uldred, we see all the blood mages and abominations in Kirkwall, but we never see Templars abusing mages.
And before anyone brings up the "stress causes abominations" argument, I bring a few examples:
Morrigan lived in the Wilds, surely that would have been stressful at some point (and yes she had Flemeth to teach her)
Malcolm Hawke was an apostate who escaped 2 Circles, and as far as we know didn;t turn to blood magic or become an abomination
Bethany and Hawke PC were both born apostates and neither went on to do damaging magic.
Solas
Dalish Keepers
Hell, even Merrill never became an abomination, her keeper did (she claims in order to protect Merrill, but we know it was just to provide a boss fight)
In fact, one of the most famous characters in the series in an NPC whose major role was being locked up and abused by mages in a quest in the tower.
It's the Thedosian version of the Quarian/Geth conflict.
I reject the notion that there is any "plight" of mages.
Being forced to give up your child as soon as it is born to never see it again sounds like a pretty horrible thing to me. Practices like that should definitely change.
Meredith planned to get the Divine's sanction. While this wouldn't actually work, neither Anders nor Hawke has any way of knowing that when the only contact with the Divine has been through a threat to declare war on the city if templar control slipped.
Also, Elthina never stuck up for mages, just sat on her hands the whole time.
She sure as hell did stick up for the mages. This is a great argument the pro mage force comes up with. "She didn't go running to our side so she deserved to die!"
She was in an untenable situation and the logical action would be to totally support the templars considering what was happening in and around Kirkwall. Instead she told them both to behave going as far as mocking Meredith and telling here to get back to the gallows 'like a good girl'. She was hoping for some kind of compromise and could have easily just caved into the knight commander, after all we get told on a regular basis that the chantry is evil because they control the templars.
If Anders was true to his values and not a coward he would have bombed the gallows rather than the chantry. In the end his selfish short sightedness cost a lot of innocent mages their lives by forcing the issue of annulment.
but we never see Templars abusing mages.
Forced tranquility is Templar abuse of mages.
The Rite of Tranquility is Templar abuse of mages.
Ser Alrik had the idea of tranquilizing all mages, probably at least partly for the purpose of sexually abusing them. He seems about to do so just when Hawke and Anders arrive.
I do think we should have seen Templar abuses more, but it's not like they're never seen.
I think the problem is because we're never shown the abuses of the Templars to the mages, nor the actual living conditions, especially of the Gallows. I mean think about it, you're stuck in one place from near birth to death, discouraged from having sexual relations, or relationships (not that they don't happen), and just generally on house arrest for life. And for what? For being born with the potential to cause harm; you personally haven't done anything yet. We see the Circle Tower in DA:O post Uldred, we see all the blood mages and abominations in Kirkwall, but we never see Templars abusing mages.
Maybe because these abuses were isolated cases and a good number of mages are perfectly happy in the circle. You hardly strengthen your argument by saying we see all the bad things mages do or become and we see few real abuses so there must be a lot of abuse we don't see.
In fact, one of the most famous characters in the series in an NPC whose major role was being locked up and abused by mages in a quest in the tower.
And who would this be?
Forced tranquility is Templar abuse of mages.
The Rite of Tranquility is Templar abuse of mages.
Ser Alrik had the idea of tranquilizing all mages, probably at least partly for the purpose of sexually abusing them. He seems about to do so just when Hawke and Anders arrive.
I do think we should have seen Templar abuses more, but it's not like they're never seen.
No 1 is not abuse
No 2 is not abuse
Alrik was a mad fool.
When I make these declarations it is what the majority of the population would say.
it is what the majority of the population would say.
I don't see why that matters in the context of what I was replying to.
Even if you think Anders' cause is just, he kills civilians rather than Templars, and his actions spark a war that kills hundreds or maybe even thousands. And how many mages end up dead because of Anders? Surely a lot more than were murdered by Meredith. If Bethany is alive and sent to the Circle, Anders also puts Hawke's sister in danger.
When entering the Apprentice Quarters in DA 1 Morrigan speaks out: "So the mages are all locked within? A fitting end for those who gave up their own freedom." Someone on Tumblr mention on a Dragon age confession: "Those who allow themselves, and even agree or encourage mages to be locked away and enslaved are no better than the templars who lock them up. Accepting it is only allowing it to continue."
Anders refuse to accept Chantry law (which is forced on Mages otherwise they'll be branded as an Apostate and are hunted down by the Templars.... most are killed) and refuse to be imprisoned in some Chantry run tower. He has seen enough damage caused by the Templars that he decided to join the mage Underground in DA2, especially after having to kill his former lover, Karl, out of mercy due to an illegal R.O.T that was done to him.
The mage- Templar situation got progressively worst as time goes by in Kirkwall. Elthina wasn't doing a single thing (Even some of the citizens notice, and was sending letters to the divine for a recall and a replacement), and with the Viscount dead... Who could Anders go to while Meredith was acting as Viscount plus the commander of the Templars? Meredith wanted to commit genocide against the Circle by requesting ROA, twice! not once, but twice! It was only matter of time before she fabricates something to get her way.
At the end of DA2 Cassandra (Hero of Orlais and the Right Hand of the Divine, and seeker) comes to the conclusion that the Knight-Commander Meredith was the central cause of outbreak of the rebellion in Kirkwall though Varric suggests that either the idol or Anders are equally responsible.
So blaming Anders for killing the innocence without taking the considerations that Meredith was the cause is irreverent and poorly investigated.
You and others who shares your views wonder why we Anders fans gets so upset when you guys label him as a murderer who kills innocence without ever putting some blame on Meredith? Who by the way was strung out on lyrium, not just the regular stuffs but the red stuffs! She was homicidal maniac yet she seems to slip right through the corners without getting an ounce of blame. Also Knight-Captain Cullen (Everyone's sweetheart and love muffin) acted until the very end when it was too late.
Being forced to give up your child as soon as it is born to never see it again sounds like a pretty horrible thing to me. Practices like that should definitely change.
Guest_StreetMagic_*
Actually Justice is perhaps too unreasonable. Even outside Anders he is like "kill the guilty now! Immediate Justice". That attitude cannot work in the waking world.
Yes, good choice of words.. "waking world". The main problem with justice isn't that he sees injustice and wants to rectify it. Nothing wrong with that. I think he's screwed up because he's a spirit. He's used to making things happen right away. Like other spirits, they conjure everything at will. But here, he's helpless. He has to learn there's a process to making things happen. To get from point A to point B correctly.
But he doesn't learn. So he takes the most drastic actions to make things "happen". In our world, it's violence and force.
It doesn't he's a mage hater that thinks forced tranquillity is not an abuse of Templar powers, after all.I don't see why that matters in the context of what I was replying to.
I'd be wary of majorities. You never know what kind of crazy shenanigans they'll agree with.No 1 is not abuse
No 2 is not abuse
Alrik was a mad fool.
When I make these declarations it is what the majority of the population would say.
With Anders, its his way or the highway. Hawke can agree with him 99 times out of 100 times, but its that one time, no matter how insignificant, he jumps to the conclusion that you're against him.
I never liked the character in Awakening and definitely didn't like him in DA2.
I'm so sick of the "you don't agree with/like Anders so you're obviously a crony of the templars/Meredith" argument. Can't a person just object to the character and his characterization and/or actions but support the mage cause? Why must it be one or the other? I detest the character. I was fond of him in Awakenings, but I hated the character as presented in DA2.
With the Circles now gone, where will those mages who need it, and they need it, get the training to use their powers wisely and resist demons? They don't all have a witch of the wilds or a former Circle mage apostate for a parent to teach them. With the chaos of the tearing down of circles and subsequent war followed by the Inquisition's mess, who is going to protect/train those children?
And don't give me some platitude about 'there will be schools' cause there already were schools (because, regardless of what they were, the Circle towers were also the place to get the best training, even Anders will say that in one of his banters with Bethany) and those are now gone!
Thedas could sure use a Hogwarts.
Guest_StreetMagic_*
Without schools, they'll eventually devolve into something like hedge mages (not the old mages, but any new ones). That means a lot of strange magics.
It's interesting in a way, because it opens up new possibilities. Magic, technically, is as limitless as Willpower in the Fade. The inborn gift of a mage is to shape things at will, just as spirits do in the Fade. But without discipline and schooling, it'll be pretty limited.
In addition, not everyone has a creative personality. So some newborn mages will have stupid powers. Maybe some will have highly destructive powers, but be one trick ponies. Kind of like Cole. The smart ones will seek as much knowledge as possible. Unfortunately, some of those would also jump at the chance of learning from a demon, if it introduces itself.
I think the problem is because we're never shown the abuses of the Templars to the mages, nor the actual living conditions, especially of the Gallows. I mean think about it, you're stuck in one place from near birth to death, discouraged from having sexual relations, or relationships (not that they don't happen), and just generally on house arrest for life. And for what? For being born with the potential to cause harm; you personally haven't done anything yet. We see the Circle Tower in DA:O post Uldred, we see all the blood mages and abominations in Kirkwall, but we never see Templars abusing mages.
Actually we did but was limited. If you go to the Gallows you would hear Templars beating mages in the backyard. It's diffcult at first, but if you carefully listen to the audio you can hear it. Theirs a mage that is so frighten to speak with you fearing that she would get 20 (I believe) lashes as punishment, and then theirs the Mage was sexually abused by the Templar, and was threaten with R.O.T if he had told anyone that the Templar was in his chambers.
Oh and theirs a mage (to the far left) who is so frighten that you can see her shivering in fear.
It's so easy to label mages like Uldred, Anders and Orsino as villians, but they're fighting a war that is preventing them from living life free.
To force change war is nessassary.
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