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[Lord Raijin]

The Circle under Chantry rules is a complete and utter failure. Just look at what happen in Orgins and now Kirkwall. COMPLETE failure. The Circle should be controled by the state, and ruled by the states King/Queen... not the Divine or the Chantry.

[KaiserShep]

I don't think the Circle system as it was would have lasted much longer, Justice or no. It may have taken much longer, possibly even years, but I think its collapse, or at least some sort of drastic reform, was inevitable.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

I think the problem is because we're never shown the abuses of the Templars to the mages, nor the actual living conditions, especially of the Gallows.

The police/law-enforcement sometimes commit abuses against those they are tasked with protecting. Should we get rid of them all and just let people police themselves?

I mean think about it, you're stuck in one place from near birth to death, discouraged from having sexual relations, or relationships (not that they don't happen), and just generally on house arrest for life. And for what? For being born with the potential to cause harm; you personally haven't done anything yet.

No, but the likelihood and ramifications are both sufficient enough to warrant exercising caution. You are one bad dream or fit of pique away from lighting a village on fire. That's why I reject the "But if you were a mage"-argument. If I was a mage and something went wrong, the people I care about most would be the first ones harmed. I can think back to several times when I've lost it, awake or while dreaming. And I am one of the most stoic/emotionless people I know.
 

We see the Circle Tower in DA:O post Uldred, we see all the blood mages and abominations in Kirkwall, but we never see Templars abusing mages.

"Magic allows abuses beyond the scope of mortals."

And I am pretty sure the Kirkwall Circle managed to check off every possible abuse on the list. Assault? Check. Rape? Check. Murder ... um, not that I can remember, but I would not put it past them anyway. Illegal tranquility? Check. If the mage abuses still stick out in your head more than any of these events, that should say something.

Still doesn't mean the solution is to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
 

And before anyone brings up the "stress causes abominations" argument, I bring a few examples:
Morrigan lived in the Wilds, surely that would have been stressful at some point (and yes she had Flemeth to teach her)
Malcolm Hawke was an apostate who escaped 2 Circles, and as far as we know didn;t turn to blood magic or become an abomination
Bethany and Hawke PC were both born apostates and neither went on to do damaging magic.
Solas
Dalish Keepers
Hell, even Merrill never became an abomination, her keeper did (she claims in order to protect Merrill, but we know it was just to provide a boss fight)
 
In fact, one of the most famous characters in the series in an NPC whose major role was being locked up and abused by mages in a quest in the tower. 
 
It's the Thedosian version of the Quarian/Geth conflict.

 
I'll wait and see on Solas. I, for one, question the wisdom of anyone who mingles freely with Fade spirits. I did it myself by allowing DA:A Justice into the party and I regret it bitterly. Spirit of Valor also made me think a little.

Dalish Keepers, Morrigan, and the Hawkes all provide some interesting ideas for alternatives to the existing system, I will say that (I may even elaborate on that point in a later part of this discussion!). However, you can still poke holes in those examples too -- especially Dalish Keepers. Zathrian did not fall prey to any demons, but he did let one single misfortune in his life turn him to causing great harm through magical means. Marethari becoming an abomination was not even the worst-case-scenario of that whole mess. And I would also point out that Morrigan and the Hawkes are fairly exceptional individuals. Not everyone will handle the burden of magic as well as they managed to. I am not convinced Morrigan is benign, for that matter.
 
Personally, I find the magic issue to be more like ME's broad organic/synthetic thing, only it's discussed very clearly beforehand the events that play to it are clearly pointed out to the player so they don't miss it.

 

Being forced to give up your child as soon as it is born to never see it again sounds like a pretty horrible thing to me. Practices like that should definitely change.

 
Doesn't it take a few years before magical ability is clearly evidenced in a person?
 
Never mind that.
 
If the child is normal, with normal parents/caretakers, to live under normal circumstances, then yeah, sure, it is pretty sad. But if the child is like Wynne (was), Cole, Harry Potter, or myself, then we would be looking at positive changes where the Templars would be rescuing the mage youth. Bad upbringing of someone with magic power could go wrong in a number of different ways. Best to exercise caution and not assume that the best place for them is their household.
 
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the system is perfect as it is and there shouldn't be changes to it, and the separation of families as a result of the Circle is one of those things that I think can be done differently and still more/less safely. Still I have to laugh when this is seen as a "plight." Still prefer the status-quo to Anders' emotionally-charged revolution and whatever the hell comes after that (I doubt he himself even knows or planned any farther ahead than "mages are free now").

[KaiserShep]

For something to last that long, I'd hardly use the word "inevitable". "Inevitable" would have happened much sooner.

 

The current crisis was forced. A perfect storm of nuttery.

 

Nothing lasts forever. Any and every system is destined to undergo certain changes, either slowly and gently or quickly and violently at some point or another, some even facing total dissolution. That it lasted for many years, even many generations, won't change that.

[Althix]

 Doesn't it take a few years before magical ability is clearly evidenced in a person?

yeah i still have no idea why Templars Chantry were not running eugenics programs on mages, given that they had direct control over the birthrate.

[KaiserShep]

yeah i still have no idea why Templars were not running eugenics programs on mages, given that they had direct control over the birthrate.

 

This wouldn't really do much good in an environment where breeding is greatly discouraged, and the Templars don't have the manpower, let alone the authority, to even attempt anything of the sort outside of the Circle.

[Althix]

yeah yeah, this is why i corrected myself.

[Xilizhra]

I'm so sick of the "you don't agree with/like Anders so you're obviously a crony of the templars/Meredith" argument.  Can't a person just object to the character and his characterization and/or actions but support the mage cause?  Why must it be one or the other?  I detest the character. I was fond of him in Awakenings, but I hated the character as presented in DA2. 

 

With the Circles now gone, where will those mages who need it, and they need it, get the training to use their powers wisely and resist demons?  They don't all have a witch of the wilds or a former Circle mage apostate for a parent to teach them.  With the chaos of the tearing down of circles and subsequent war followed by the Inquisition's mess, who is going to protect/train those children?

 

And don't give me some platitude about 'there will be schools' cause there already were schools (because, regardless of what they were, the Circle towers were also the place to get the best training, even Anders will say that in one of his banters with Bethany) and those are now gone!

All good questions, that can't be answered right now with the templars trying to kill everyone. I do have plenty of ideas, though.

 

And do you support the mage cause?

[Who Knows]

Meredith was actually going behind Elthina's back for it.

Would have waiting for Meredith to make a move been worse than what Anders did? Killing civilians, the Grand Cleric, and destroying a chantry isn't exactly a good PR move.

[KaiserShep]

Anders could have made things much simpler if he acted sooner. The Knight-Commander used to love just marching along in public places. Anders, being a mage, could have simply ran up to her, give her a big bear hug, and give her the full-Andraste in a glorious fireball. I suppose it lacks the symbolism of the Chantry's destruction.

[Who Knows]

Anders could have made things much simpler if he acted sooner. The Knight-Commander used to love just marching along in public places. Anders, being a mage, could have simply ran up to her, give her a big bear hug, and give her the full-Andraste in a glorious fireball.

I think his plan hinged on the templars invoking the Rite, thereby forcing most of the mages to rebel (and also inspiring mages in other circles to rebel from a perceived injustice).

With Meredith out of the picture, I have doubts the Rite would have been invoked instead of just having Anders killed.

[Xilizhra]

Would have waiting for Meredith to make a move been worse than what Anders did? Killing civilians, the Grand Cleric, and destroying a chantry isn't exactly a good PR move.

Quite possibly. The Chantry was detonated when many templars weren't in the Gallows, and with Meredith having no time to plan it; the chaos gave the mages a fighting chance.

 

 

Anders could have made things much simpler if he acted sooner. The Knight-Commander used to love just marching along in public places. Anders, being a mage, could have simply ran up to her, give her a big bear hug, and give her the full-Andraste in a glorious fireball. I suppose it lacks the symbolism of the Chantry's destruction.

Also, all Meredith has to do is Silence and decapitate him.

[KaiserShep]

It would actually be stupidly easy to assassinate someone of her stature in the middle of a public place, especially if your plan does not involve escaping. It's not like she has secret service and sniper detail. She's just walking around in broad daylight with a few other Templars. Any rube that's a good shot with an arrow could get her between the eyes if they wanted. Even a fireball from a reasonable distance would probably do the trick.

[Xilizhra]

It would actually be stupidly easy to assassinate someone of her stature in the middle of a public place, especially if your plan does not involve escaping. It's not like she has secret service and sniper detail. She's just walking around in broad daylight with a few other Templars. Any rube that's a good shot with an arrow could get her between the eyes if they wanted. Even a fireball from a reasonable distance would probably do the trick.

Well, Anders is not a good shot with an arrow, so he'd have to hire someone who'd be both a good enough shot to kill Meredith with one shot (and at the right moment, given that her appearances are unannounced) and willing to die for it. As for fireballs, templars are themselves resistant to magic.

[Who Knows]

Quite possibly. The Chantry was detonated when many templars weren't in the Gallows, and with Meredith having no time to plan it; the chaos gave the mages a fighting chance.

The preparedness issue is a good point.

[KaiserShep]

Well, Anders is not a good shot with an arrow, so he'd have to hire someone who'd be both a good enough shot to kill Meredith with one shot (and at the right moment, given that her appearances are unannounced) and willing to die for it. As for fireballs, templars are themselves resistant to magic.

 

Unless the Templar is protected by the proper enchantments, set one aflame, and he'll roast in his armor like anyone else.

[Lord Raijin]

yeah i still have no idea why Templars Chantry were not running eugenics programs on mages, given that they had direct control over the birthrate.

 

 

This wouldn't really do much good in an environment where breeding is greatly discouraged, and the Templars don't have the manpower, let alone the authority, to even attempt anything of the sort outside of the Circle.

 

Psychologically speaking it's actually a great idea, and the perfect environment for a breeding program considering the fact that the Chantry would be in absolute 100% control through heavily indoctrination.

 

Mages makes the perfect soldiers for the Chantry, and a make a great addition for the Chantries military.

 

Go watch the movie called "The island" @ http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0399201/ to see where I'm coming from.

[Who Knows]

I don't think they could ever breed out magic.

[Lord Raijin]

I don't think they could ever breed out magic.

 

Why breed out the magic when magic can be a great tool to use? Exalted Marches anyone?

[Xilizhra]

Unless the Templar is protected by the proper enchantments, set one aflame, and he'll roast in his armor like anyone else.

Not to hear those completely passive magic resistance bonuses tell it, from both the templar skill tree and templar armor.

[Maverick_One]

Do I hate Anders? No. Did I let him live? No. To dislike Anders for how he was and what was to follow is to not take into account the actions of what would be many many generations of people. The problem started when Maferath betrayed Andraste.  With her gone her followers became like the very evil they were fighting against. The Chantry just doesn't use blood magic to control the minds of their followers.  They use religion, and Lyrium. Does Anders get on my nerves during the game sure, so does pretty much all the other companions especially when they betray me in the fade. I mean doesn't leave me a lot of confidence in them having my back afterword. What if Meredith had of offered Isabela her own boat as an example.

[Who Knows]

Do I hate Anders? No. Did I let him live? No. To dislike Anders for how he was and what was to follow is to not take into account the actions of what would be many many generations of people. The problem started when Maferath betrayed Andraste.  With her gone her followers became like the very evil they were fighting against. The Chantry just doesn't use blood magic to control the minds of their followers.  They use religion, and Lyrium. Does Anders get on my nerves during the game sure, so does pretty much all the other companions especially when they betray me in the fade. I mean doesn't leave me a lot of confidence in them having my back afterword. What if Meredith had of offered Isabela her own boat as an example.

The phylacteries used by the (Chantry controlled) Circles are blood magic, mind you. And the Templar abilities are magic...basically, it's only bad when the Chantry isn't doing it.