833 réponses à ce sujet

[KaiserShep]

Psychologically speaking it's actually a great idea, and the perfect environment for a breeding program considering the fact that the Chantry would be in absolute 100% control through heavily indoctrination.

 

Mages makes the perfect soldiers for the Chantry, and a make a great addition for the Chantries military.

 

Go watch the movie called "The island" @ http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0399201/ to see where I'm coming from.

 

This doesn't account for the influx of mages that the Templars bring into the Circles. You can't have a program for selective breeding while also taking in mages from other families that are well beyond the Chantry's control. The Chantry couldn't possibly apply such a thing to an entire population of people in the villages and cities.

[Han Shot First]

Elthina was an ally of Meredith through negligence, and the Circle was already going to be attacked; Anders didn't cause the Annulment per se, only made it happen at a more convenient time (Karras, if he's alive, will speak of Meredith's plans for it at the beginning of Act 3), for a reason that couldn't be justified or swept under the rug.

 

That's like saying "Gavrilo Princip isn't responsible for the death of Archduke Ferdinand or the millions of deaths that followed in World War One. Someone else would have shot that geezer anyway."

[Maverick_One]

My point is that how Anders was, and what he did was a result of those who came before him and whose actions set into motion the events that led to Ander's actions. From the Tevinter Imperium to Maferath, and on down. It did not suddenly happen overnight.

[Han Shot First]

My point is that how Anders was, and what he did was a result of those who came before him and whose actions set into motion the events that led to Ander's actions. From the Tevinter Imperium to Maferath, and on down. It did not suddenly happen overnight.

 

Sure, the power kegs had already been piled up. But Anders lit the fuse.

[Maverick_One]

No denying that. I just can understand Anders is all so I don't dislike him. Infact the more I think on it really who else would fit that role that we already met? Why would Merrill care? Velanna was more worried about her sister. Would be way too out of character for Wynne. Other than Jowan I can't think of someone else who could of done it. I doubt bringing in a new character to toss the match as you say would be the right fit.

[Xilizhra]

That's like saying "Gavrilo Princip isn't responsible for the death of Archduke Ferdinand or the millions of deaths that followed in World War One. Someone else would have shot that geezer anyway."

That's actually not too inaccurate; the way the web of alliances was set up, and the badly frayed relations between European nations, virtually guaranteed that war would come for some reason or another. It's a very rare thing for the action of a single person to actually set history on a wholly different track.

 

However, for your analogy to work, Austria-Hungary would have had to be already planning to attack Serbia.

[Lulupab]

Sure, the power kegs had already been piled up. But Anders lit the fuse.

 

What Anders did was used by Fiona to start the rebellion. Mages were feeling unsafe because what's stopping them from getting annulled because of actions of an apostate not connected to the circle? Not to mention they were angry at the unjust annulment as well. Add to that the actions of certain Asunder characters and it was done. No matter how horrendous you think it was, what Anders did worked exactly they way he wanted it to. Oh and Anders added huge amounts of fuel, Asunder characters lit it.

[sylvanaerie]

Do I hate Anders? No. Did I let him live? No. To dislike Anders for how he was and what was to follow is to not take into account the actions of what would be many many generations of people. The problem started when Maferath betrayed Andraste.  With her gone her followers became like the very evil they were fighting against. The Chantry just doesn't use blood magic to control the minds of their followers.  They use religion, and Lyrium. Does Anders get on my nerves during the game sure, so does pretty much all the other companions especially when they betray me in the fade. I mean doesn't leave me a lot of confidence in them having my back afterword. What if Meredith had of offered Isabela her own boat as an example.

 

She likes big boats and she cannot lie....

[Enrychan]

The problem is much more complicated than "inviting mentally retarded spirits like Justice into the world" (also retarded is an ableist term, please avoid using it if possible). Mages' powers come from their connection to the Fade. Even something almost universally recognized as "positive" like healing magic, basically consists in summoning beneficial spirits to restore life. This relationship with the Fade is not positive or negative per se. It can be very dangerous. Or it can be very useful, like I said in the case of spirit healers, or the mages who helped defeating the Blights. In fact, most of the times the Veil is thin where the Circles of Magi are, because these are also places where people tend to die... a lot. Just think about the Harrowing, and how many apprentices don't pass the test and have to be executed by the Templars. This rite alone would be sufficient to make the Veil thinner in that area. Then there are mages who are literally forgotten in the dungeons, like Cole, and others that commit suicide. Not to mention rebellions like the one in DAO, or the Right of Annullment, which completely wipes away every mage in the Circle, possessed or not. By the way it was invoked no less than 20 times from the foundation of the Chantry. So... no, I wouldn't say it was a win-win situation.

 

About the Seekers, of course they are "sympathetic to the templars", they COME from the ranks of the templars. That's not how you improve balance between the two parts...

[Lulupab]

The Chantry were moderates in all of this.

 

The original hard-line mage hunters were the Inquisition. A seperate, more hardcore Andrastian faction. They hunted mages indiscriminately. The Chantry, if anything, chilled them out. They created the Circles to protect mages, and thought it was wrong to kill them like that. While at the same time, got the Inquisition under their control and focused their anti-mage efforts to become Templars, with the job of both protecting people from dangerous magic, and protecting mages themselves. It was supposed to be a win-win situation for everybody.

 

And it was a win-win for millenia. Millenia. Hardly anything works for 2000 years like this did. I'd call it a success for the most part. Not some failure from the get go, "starting with Maferath". It only became a failure when you invite mentally retarded spirits like Justice into the world. He doesn't understand the concept of "process", balance, or compromise. Which are essential to REALITY... especially social and political reality.

 

Nobody is going to come up with a better solution than this original arrangement. And have it last as long. The only thing Anders has done has caused chaos. No actual problem solving.

 

edit: I'll add though that the one Chantry element that has failed it's duty is the Seekers. Not people like Elthina. Part of their job was to keep checks on Templars. To stop abuses. Which they didn't.. they became too sympathetic to Templars instead. This can be fixed though. And you don't have to blow up people to do it.

 

Anders is without a doubt, the most abused and tormented mage by the circle system (at least based on mages we meet). Hate and crush someone like that, they will blow in your face, quite literally in Anders' case. I can see your point when you imply that certain Chantry in kirkwall didn't deserve it, but I firmly believe the Chantry as a whole organization totally did. They condoned the slaughter of mages by the previous Inquisition, until mages proved to be useful and saved the world from the blights. That was when the Chantry pleaded to find another way, which is basically keeping mages as pets and weapons until they are needed. Its not slavery but most mages are not treated like people.

 

The circle system didn't really work, most mages were quite helpless and couldn't do anything about their life. So if their didn't like it they either adapted, became a blood mage, grey warden or died. The circles have been around for less than a 1000 years, I think its 800s. Tyrannies usually last very long as well, the college of enchanters which is the ruling class of mages can be disbanded at whim of Templars, its tyranny by very definition. No tyranny has fallen peacefully in whole history of mankind. That's how you get revolutions.

[Thumb Fu]

I kind of liked him in Awakening, i mean he was funny. In DA2 i actually hated him from the start. Don't get me wrong i think he is a great character still, more so probably becuse i disliked him so much. In the end i stabbed him so hard, not becuase i disliked him, but because of his actions. A really great character that evokes strong feelings.

[Xilizhra]

The Chantry were moderates in all of this.

 

The original hard-line mage hunters were the Inquisition. A seperate, more hardcore Andrastian faction. They hunted mages indiscriminately. The Chantry, if anything, chilled them out. They created the Circles to protect mages, and thought it was wrong to kill them like that. While at the same time, got the Inquisition under their control and focused their anti-mage efforts to become Templars, with the job of both protecting people from dangerous magic, and protecting mages themselves. It was supposed to be a win-win situation for everybody.

 

And it was a win-win for millenia. Millenia. Hardly anything works for 2000 years like this did. I'd call it a success for the most part. Not some failure from the get go, "starting with Maferath". It only became a failure when you invite mentally retarded spirits like Justice into the world. He doesn't understand the concept of "process", balance, or compromise. Which are essential to REALITY... especially social and political reality.

 

Nobody is going to come up with a better solution than this original arrangement. And have it last as long. The only thing Anders has done has caused chaos. No actual problem solving.

 

edit: I'll add though that the one Chantry element that has failed it's duty is the Seekers. Not people like Elthina. Part of their job was to keep checks on Templars. To stop abuses. Which they didn't.. they became too sympathetic to Templars instead. This can be fixed though. And you don't have to blow up people to do it.

It was never a win-win scenario, it only kept up because no better option presented itself, or was actively squashed by the Chantry. Also, you're badly inflating the amount of time the system lasted, which was only 920 years--a mere three hundred or so years longer than feudalism, which was itself a terrible and oppressive system that no one got past for centuries.

 

A better solution will be found with a mage victory, I guarantee it.

[Xilizhra]

I'm going to give you that. I need to check the timeline again. I must be confusing Andraste with Jesus too much (roughly two millenia). 

 

Feudalism wasn't exactly universal. And much worse in some places than others (pretty sure China was the worst). Probably irrelevant, but just saying.

Neither is the Andrastian Chantry universal.

[Who Knows]

No denying that. I just can understand Anders is all so I don't dislike him. Infact the more I think on it really who else would fit that role that we already met? Why would Merrill care? Velanna was more worried about her sister. Would be way too out of character for Wynne. Other than Jowan I can't think of someone else who could of done it. I doubt bringing in a new character to toss the match as you say would be the right fit.

I like Anders a lot, aside from a few things, up until about the end where he deceives Hawke and then blows up the Chantry. After that, he's really too far gone, IMO.

If you don't romance him, at least. If you do romance him I suppose you may be able to watch over him well enough after the events of DA2, but if you don't he splits just like everyone else who isn't romanced.

[Lord Raijin]

I like Anders a lot, aside from a few things, up until about the end where he deceives Hawke and then blows up the Chantry. After that, he's really too far gone, IMO.

If you don't romance him, at least. If you do romance him I suppose you may be able to watch over him well enough after the events of DA2, but if you don't he splits just like everyone else who isn't romanced.

 

Anders didn't deceive Hawke at all. Not sure where you're getting that from but he never deceived him/her.

[Who Knows]

Anders didn't deceive Hawke at all. Not sure where you're getting that from but he never deceived him/her.

You don't remember the supposed potion (to separate Anders from Justice) that Anders had Hawke gather reagents for?

[Ioini]

In DA:A loved his character. In DAII not so much, I can't even come with a likeable quality about him. Plus, there is no justification of murdering innocent people for freedom.

 

I rather prefer Justice and Anders being separate characters.

[KaiserShep]

Anders didn't deceive Hawke at all. Not sure where you're getting that from but he never deceived him/her.

 

For that to be true, Hawke would have been fully aware of the fact that the ingredients were meant for explosives, and that they were going to be used on the Chantry. Exclusionary detailing is still very much deception.

[Stronglav]

Does anyone like Anders?

 

No.May that psychopath burn in hell.I sent him there myself.

[Lulupab]

You don't remember the supposed potion (to separate Anders from Justice) that Anders had Hawke gather reagents for?

For that to be true, Hawke would have been fully aware of the fact that the ingredients were meant for explosives, and that they were going to be used on the Chantry. Exclusionary detailing is still very much deception.

 

If you are a 100% friend and choose the star dialogue he will tell you that he is going to do something but does not want Hawke connected to it in any way. You need to trust someone first before expecting them to trust you back.