833 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryriena]

I still think Varric lied to Cassandra for how involed Hawke was in his plan to blow the chantry so he could shield Hawke from the blame he or she would get from Cassandra. Although, she see them as a hero now even thought they might have been more involed in the bombing, because as a mage player my Hawkes would know about Drakestone and Saltpetera, which is their version of Saltpeter or Possium Nitrate. I was rolling my eyes, a little at how people were shocked at the ending. I am always confused as too why my Anders asked me for this quest, since I never said his merger was wrong in my playthrough. I wished he couldve came up with a better way of getting Hawke's help to collect the stone and Saltpetra, instead of him trying to lie to her or him about their involement.

[Ryriena]

You're playing through Varric's story. Everything he tells her is what you're doing as a player. Or vice versa. Everything you're doing is what he tells her. If he's lying, then so are you.
 
Also, Mage Hawke apparently didn't know what Anders' ingredients were, because you were never given the option to know. There's no dialogue to call him out on it. Or to say "Hey, I know what Drakestone is.."

I find it quite dubios that a mage Hawke would allow Anders to mix a potion He or She knew nothing about, unless he was a warrior, who did not know herblism. I found that dialog qutie off base for some reason it felt to me that Varric was hiding somthing from Cassandra to sheild Hawkes involement somewhat.

[Ryriena]

My reasoning is that if the dialogue isn't there, then Hawke didn't think it. It doesn't really matter what I - the player - might think or want to say. It's not totally my character. I'm just given some choices, not full freedom to roleplay.
 
If you find it dubious, think of it this way. Hawke was so desperate to help Anders that there was a lapse in judgement, and in his/her enthusiasm just helped find the ingredients.

This fits better with an RP prespective, to play a mage Hawke that had a lapse in judgement. At least, I can role play it this way and just head cannon that she knew what these ingredients were for but decided to allow Anders the benfit of the doubt that he was just using them for the Mage Underground.

[Iakus]

I still think Varric lied to Cassandra for how involed Hawke was in his plan to blow the chantry so he could shield Hawke from the blame he or she would get from Cassandra. Although, she see them as a hero now even thought they might have been more involed in the bombing, because as a mage player my Hawkes would know about Drakestone and Saltpetera, which is their version of Saltpeter or Possium Nitrate. I was rolling my eyes, a little at how people were shocked at the ending. I am always confused as too why my Anders asked me for this quest, since I never said his merger was wrong in my playthrough. I wished he couldve came up with a better way of getting Hawke's help to collect the stone and Saltpetra, instead of him trying to lie to her or him about their involement.

I really hope this isn't the case.  It would really take away from the agency of DA2 players.  The Hawke they played would not have been their Hawke.  Even one passing through Varric's filter.

[TheDragonOfWhy]

Just because you're a Mage doesn't mean you know anything about alchemy. And Hawke had ordered in all her potions, so it's more than likely she wasn't aware of what Anders was planning. More the shame really, as my Hawke would of gladly of helped if she had been given the option.
And people should not confuse Meta knowledge with RP knowledge. We as players might know Anders was pretty much building the bombs he saw first hand in Awakening, but Hawke couldn't of know that.

[cami46]

I played DA2 before I played Awakening and I liked him the first 3 times I played DA2.  It was only when I played and romanced Sebastian did I really start to dislike Anders.  It might have been the uneasy feeling I had when I didn't have the lovey dovey feelings to mask them.  Seb made me feel like dirt and basically never shut up about me helping Anders kill Elthina.  I see his point.

 

When I went back to play Awakening it was jarring to see him as he was then, so carefree and flippant. 

[Ryriena]

I really hope this isn't the case.  It would really take away from the agency of DA2 players.  The Hawke they played would not have been their Hawke.  Even one passing through Varric's filter.

I hope it's not the case either, I am just saying the whole entire quest scene felt off for me is all.

[Abraham_uk]

As a character I love Anders!

He is an interesting character with a lot of unusual traits and a unique world view.

 

As a person though, he is a horrible, winey person who I would personally despise if I met him in real life.

[sylvanaerie]

My Hawke may have wanted to free mages, or even just his/ her sister from the Gallows, but they never EVER would have condoned Anders' actions.  Reactions ranged from surprised/hurt betrayal from those who friended him, to outrage by those who loathed him.  But none ever, ever would have condoned what he did.  The cost, immediate to those in the Chantry and the surrounding buildings (one of which was Hawke's home!) and in the future to innocents (mage and mundane) who would die in Anders' fight would be horrendous.

 

I support mage freedom but not the point of slaughtering thousands.  Justice/Vengeance was just too impatient.  The Circle has been around at least a millenium.  It's not going to change overnight, or even in Anders' lifetime.  And all his actions did was incite more fear and hatred toward mages, and in his case, justifiably so.

 

I'm not saying Anders didn't suffer (or other mages don't), but there were also many who just wanted to live their lives, and Anders made that choice for everyone else involved (and those not involved who will be caught in the crossfire).

[Xilizhra]

I support mage freedom but not the point of slaughtering thousands.  Justice/Vengeance was just too impatient.  The Circle has been around at least a millenium.  It's not going to change overnight, or even in Anders' lifetime.

Actually, it's doing just that.

 

 

I'm not saying Anders didn't suffer (or other mages don't), but there were also many who just wanted to live their lives, and Anders made that choice for everyone else involved (and those not involved who will be caught in the crossfire).

I'm confident that Meredith made that choice for them already. Anders gave them a fighting chance over no chance at all.

[Who Knows]

Even if Anders' actions allowed many of the Kirkwall Circle mages to escape, the issue remains of the PR issues of a mage having blown up a chantry killing plenty of people. The Circles rebel either way, even if Hawke helped Meredith slaughter all of the mages. So Anders did wait until Meredith made her move, the end result may have very well been revolt by the other circles anyway. I imagine Meredith would have an even less compelling reason to invoke the rite.

There's no way to know if the circles would riot for sure, of course, but neither was there a certain way to know if they would do so with the bomb either. By using the bomb, there's a guaranteed ugly mark on this mage freedom movement from the beginning. Since Anders seems to be willing to sacrifice the lives of innocents for this goal, it really may have been better to wait and stomach the extra mage lives lost.

[Xilizhra]

Even if Anders' actions allowed many of the Kirkwall Circle mages to escape, the issue remains of the PR issues of a mage having blown up a chantry killing plenty of people. The Circles rebel either way, even if Hawke helped Meredith slaughter all of the mages. So Anders did wait until Meredith made her move, the end result may have very well been revolt by the other circles anyway. I imagine Meredith would have an even less compelling reason to invoke the rite.

There's no way to know if the circles would riot for sure, of course, but neither was there a certain way to know if they would do so with the bomb either. By using the bomb, there's a guaranteed ugly mark on this mage freedom movement from the beginning. Since Anders seems to be willing to sacrifice the lives of innocents for this goal, it really may have been better to wait and stomach the extra mage lives lost.

Whether or not Meredith would invoke the Right on her own, it'd be far more likely to succeed had it happened on her terms and not Anders'. And Elthina was a master of worthless compromises that favored the status quo and the templars, so that's another plus there.

[Who Knows]

Whether or not Meredith would invoke the Right on her own, it'd be far more likely to succeed had it happened on her terms and not Anders'. And Elthina was a master of worthless compromises that favored the status quo and the templars, so that's another plus there.

The Rite may have been more likely to succeed. But given that the other Circles also rebel when Hawke sides with the Templars, the end result seemingly would be what Anders wanted anyway - for the mages to either be forced to fight (from the rite being invoked) or be inspired to do so (from what happens in Kirkwall) - but without the ugly terrorist act damaging perception of the mages. More mages would die in Kirkwall, but it's not like Anders didn't kill civilians in the bombing (if you want to exclude Elthina and the templars, there's still the Chantry sisters and brothers, and anyone living near the blast zone).

[Xilizhra]

The Rite may have been more likely to succeed. But given that the other Circles also rebel when Hawke sides with the Templars, the end result seemingly would be what Anders wanted anyway - for the mages to either be forced to fight (from the rite being invoked) or be inspired to do so (from what happens in Kirkwall) - but without the ugly terrorist act damaging perception of the mages. More mages would die in Kirkwall, but it's not like Anders didn't kill civilians in the bombing (if you want to exclude Elthina and the templars, there's still the Chantry sisters and brothers, and anyone living near the blast zone).

I disagree, because Meredith might be able to pull off some kind of blood magic-related justification for it and then have it turn out to be semi-true. It's important for the justification to be completely nonsensical and unjust even from an in-universe perspective.

[Who Knows]

I disagree, because Meredith might be able to pull off some kind of blood magic-related justification for it and then have it turn out to be semi-true. It's important for the justification to be completely nonsensical and unjust even from an in-universe perspective.

That is a good point, but if Anders limited his killing to just Elthina and maybe some templars, you could avoid all of those (other) ugly civilian deaths  Without the civilian deaths Meredith has an even less justified reason to invoke the Rite. In fact, Anders could have "easily" just assassinated Elthina. In the Justice quest he literally just goes up and talks to her. Given that Meredith is looking for any reason to invoke the rite, and the death of Elthina eliminates the middlewoman, I think doing so would be successful for what Anders wants to ultimately achieve (mage rebellion everywhere).

[Xilizhra]

That is a good point, but if Anders limited his killing to just Elthina and maybe some templars, you could avoid all of those (other) ugly civilian deaths  Without the civilian deaths Meredith has an even less justified reason to invoke the Rite. In fact, Anders could have "easily" just assassinated Elthina. In the Justice quest he literally just goes up and talks to her. Given that Meredith is looking for any reason to invoke the rite, and the death of Elthina eliminates the middlewoman, I think doing so would be successful for what Anders wants to ultimately achieve (mage rebellion everywhere).

Maybe... but I don't think Meredith could have justified it to herself in her own uniquely warped mind if that's all he did. Anders needed to make Meredith lose focus on any individual mage and attack magic in general.

[Who Knows]

Maybe... but I don't think Meredith could have justified it to herself in her own uniquely warped mind if that's all he did. Anders needed to make Meredith lose focus on any individual mage and attack magic in general.

But she was already planning to invoke the Rite with or without Elthina and with or without Anders. The intent and focus to attack all magic/mages was already there, because that's basically what the Rite is in the first place.

The removal of Elthina makes that significantly easier and also grants her the legal authority to do so. If she were planning to use the blood mage justification you mentioned, that is not negated by Anders assassinating Elthina - Elthina's death only adds additional (to her and others) reason.

[Jigglypuff]

Anders is repugnant.

[whanzephruseke]

Personally, I don't think Anders thought much past "must break status quo"-->"kill symbol of compromise in most spectacular fashion to break status quo."  Also, the decision to blow up the Chantry was all Anders; Justice only cares about punishing those he sees as unjust within the confines of existing systems, not effecting actual change.

[Kuse]

Nope, I killed him off after what he did in in DA2....

[Brialyn]

Personally: I quite liked DA:A Anders.  He was snarky and light hearted.  DA2 Anders was whiny and selfish.  I romanced him with my first Hawke and I actually felt betrayed that he lied as he did.  My Hawke didn't kill him, but she sent him away (both times) and I ignored the part in the epilogue when Varric mentioned he never left her side.  I've never been a fan of anyone who forces their ideals on others and Anders did that in a major way.  He pretty much forced all mages in Kirkwall to fight for their survival whether they wanted to or not.  He endangered the people he claimed he was trying to protect with his narrow views.  If he paid attention of Meredith at all he should have seen that her own insanity would have forced the issue at some point. 

 

As a Bioware Companion: I love him! Bioware has the capacity to write characters whom you can dislike, even hate, and that makes for an engaging world.  Thank you Bioware! 

[Jester]

DA2 Anders was whiny and selfish.  I romanced him with my first Hawke and I actually felt betrayed that he lied as he did.  My Hawke didn't kill him, but she sent him away (both times) and I ignored the part in the epilogue when Varric mentioned he never left her side.  

If you think about it, both Fenris and Anders are terrible romance partners. Anders starts a war behind your back, lying to you and abusing your help, while Fenris bangs you then walks away making some bullshit excuse, and forgets about you for 3 years. 

You may say what you like about Isabela, but she turned out to be way more loyal than those two.

 

But she was already planning to invoke the Rite with or without Elthina and with or without Anders.

 

No, she was not. 

She wanted more restrictions towards mages - yes. She suspected Orsino of hiding Blood Mages and possibly being corrupted himself and rightly so. But she didn't want to kill them all - provoking her is on Anders' hands. Starting this war is on Anders' hands. Hundreds killed - Mages, Templars and civilians alike - that too is on Anders' hands. 

He was so blinded by the ideas of "freedom" that he didn't realize that freedom isn't the same thing for everyone - and that some may value peace higher than freedom. But in his arrogance, he felt that HE of all people was qualified to make this decision for all mages in Kirkwall Circle.

That's very ironic - he spoke of freedom, yet he forced the fate he chose on everyone.