833 réponses à ce sujet

[Lord Raijin]

I'm sorry... what? I understand the drive to fight back against the Templars, but Anders killed many innocents through his actions. Anyone present in the chantry at the time was killed, not just the Grand Cleric, but also any other priests or civilians who happened to be there at the time. People would also be killed by the debris from the explosion.

Again, I can understand wanting to free the mages from the oppression they face, but killing innocents to set off a rebellion does nothing more than validate claims that mages are too dangerous.

 

Did you read the 2 articles that I provided to you? The Chantry has committed far more sinister crimes then what Anders did back in DA2. Should we ignore the crimes that the Chantry has done, and only wave our disagreement finger at Anders? Do you honestly believe that the Chantry doesn't kill innocent people when they declare an Exalted Marches to defend "the Faith"?

 

What about the Right of Annulment? Don't you think theirs innocent mages in the circle that hasn't done anything yet the Grand Cleric signed a death warrant out on them? By the beginning of the Fifth Blight, the Right has been invoked 17 times. The Right was requested three more times between 9:30 and 9:40 Dragon, and was carried out in at least two of these instances according to wikia.

 

Let's talk about Sister/Mother Petrice for the moment. Look at how many lives were loss because this woman was intolerant of having a group of peaceful Qunari present in the city. She was intolerant of having the Viscount son convert to the Qun, and assassinated him for being associated with the Qunari people, and attempted to cover it up. She was also responsible for the Viscounts assassination for successfully igniting the war between the Qunari and Kirkwall with her bigotry.

 

If you support Mother Petrice actions Elthina does NOTHING but demote her to sister again. She is still walking around as if nothing happen... She caused so many deaths of so many innocent lives.

 

It's safe to say that a Chantry mother has done far more damage to Kirkwall then what Anders did in ACT3.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 Just noticed I've not addressed this OP.

 

Anders's only difference from Meredith is allegiance. Otherwise, he is every bit as bad. Slightly worse, I would even argue. Both let bad past experience shape their opinion of irrational hate, an opinion both refuse to come down from. Both are paranoid, but Meredith at least fears things that are legitimate cause for concern. Anders freaked out over some non-existent conspiracy to tranquilize all mages, and -- just when you thought he had learned something -- continued to fear it even after finding out it was unilaterally rejected. In the end, Meredith's decision to invoke the RoA may have been questionable, but she did have legal authority to do it. Why? Oh, right: because Anders gave it to her in full knowledge, all but counting on her to invoke it. Anders wanted war every bit as much as Meredith; her bloodlust is rivaled only by his. Meredith's actions were wrong, but at least legal. What Anders did was wrong and illegal (good job)!

 

So to say I do not like Anders is an understatement, and I typically learn to like my companions -- I even warmed up to Merrill's dumb arse after some time. Hate is a strong word, but it fits. I hate him, for the same reasons I hate Meredith. Truth of the matter is, no one side of the mage/Templar issue is totally right or totally wrong, so anyone on either side claiming to be such is not part of the solution, but part of the problem (as moral ideologues always are).

[DarkTl]

 

Merrill got her clan wiped out

 

She didn't if you do it right. Just saying.

[Catche Jagger]

Did you read the 2 articles that I provided to you? The Chantry has committed far more sinister crimes then what Anders did back in DA2. Should we ignore the crimes that the Chantry has done, and only wave our disagreement finger at Anders? Do you honestly believe that the Chantry doesn't kill innocent people when they declare an Exalted Marches to defend "the Faith"?

 

What about the Right of Annulment? Don't you think theirs innocent mages in the circle that hasn't done anything yet the Grand Cleric signed a death warrant out on them? By the beginning of the Fifth Blight, the Right has been invoked 17 times. The Right was requested three more times between 9:30 and 9:40 Dragon, and was carried out in at least two of these instances according to wikia.

 

Let's talk about Sister/Mother Petrice for the moment. Look at how many lives were loss because this woman was intolerant of having a group of peaceful Qunari present in the city. She was intolerant of having the Viscount son convert to the Qun, and assassinated him for being associated with the Qunari people, and attempted to cover it up. She was also responsible for the Viscounts assassination for successfully igniting the war between the Qunari and Kirkwall with her bigotry.

 

If you support Mother Petrice actions Elthina does NOTHING but demote her to sister again. She is still walking around as if nothing happen... She caused so many deaths of so many innocent lives.

 

It's safe to say that a Chantry mother has done far more damage to Kirkwall then what Anders did in ACT3.

 

So the answer is to kill even more innocents? The Chantry is a flawed institution that has more power than it should and often abuses that power in bad ways, I never denied that. Grand Cleric Elthina allowed horrible things to happen in Kirkwall and refused to take action, I never denied that. What I said is that Anders was wrong to blow up the chantry because he killed not only the Grand Cleric, but also many others who would have had little to nothing to do with her questionable actions. Just because the chantry or Elthina did bad things doesn't mean that it's okay for Anders to commit atrocities too.

[Kidd]

Anders is amazing, and turned into a much more interesting character in DA2 than in DAA. Me, and three(!) of my friends all decided to romance him on our first playthroughs of the game without any prior communication. Needless to say, all of us reacted quite differently to his actions and it all made for some wonderful debate.

Anders is the best that ever happened to DA imho.

[Lord Raijin]

 Just noticed I've not addressed this OP.

 

Anders's only difference from Meredith is allegiance. Otherwise, he is every bit as bad. Slightly worse, I would even argue. Both let bad past experience shape their opinion of irrational hate, an opinion both refuse to come down from. Both are paranoid, but Meredith at least fears things that are legitimate cause for concern. Anders freaked out over some non-existent conspiracy to tranquilize all mages, and -- just when you thought he had learned something -- continued to fear it even after finding out it was unilaterally rejected. In the end, Meredith's decision to invoke the RoA may have been questionable, but she did have legal authority to do it. Why? Oh, right: because Anders gave it to her in full knowledge, all but counting on her to invoke it. Anders wanted war every bit as much as Meredith; her bloodlust is rivaled only by his. Meredith's actions were wrong, but at least legal. What Anders did was wrong and illegal (good job)!

 

So to say I do not like Anders is an understatement, and I typically learn to like my companions -- I even warmed up to Merrill's dumb arse after some time. Hate is a strong word, but it fits. I hate him, for the same reasons I hate Meredith. Truth of the matter is, no one side of the mage/Templar issue is totally right or totally wrong, so anyone on either side claiming to be such is not part of the solution, but part of the problem (as moral ideologues always are).

 

How can you compare Anders with Meredith in comparisons? How is he as bad, or even slightly worse? Anders has a legit reason to be paranoid because hes a mage apostate living in a Chantry dominated country. The Chantries authority supersedes the crown. Meredith is running a crusade against the mages over the fact that her parents didn't take her mage sister to the circle, and as a result turned into an abomination that killed her parents, and almost killed her too. She blames the mages over the death of her parents and the 70 people that her abomination sister killed. She refuses to acknowledge that it was her parents that is responsible for not surrendering their mage daughter to the circle. She is in fact an anti Mage Knight-Commander, and the relationship that she has with the First Enchanter further proves it.

 

As for the non-existent conspiracy to tranquilize all mages is false. It was very well in the existent, just it was not officially accepted by the Divine nor by his Knight-Commander. The Templar was still conducting illegal tranquilization of mages, and was not being punished from his crimes against the mages. Anders even acknowledge that those who passed the Harrowing cannot be made Tranquil. It is against the Chantries laws yet Ser Alrik was still doing it, and was never punished for it. He was also sexually molesting newly tranquil mages to do whatever he wants them to do.

 

After the Chantry was blown up Meredith had the opportunity to arrest Anders on sight, as he clearly confessed to his crimes, and make him face justice for what he done, but no. Her mindset was already clear. She wanted to purge every single mage in the circle by involving RoA ... including children. Meredith is at fault for what happen next as she wanted to have her little war against the mages.

[Lord Raijin]

So the answer is to kill even more innocents? The Chantry is a flawed institution that has more power than it should and often abuses that power in bad ways, I never denied that. Grand Cleric Elthina allowed horrible things to happen in Kirkwall and refused to take action, I never denied that. What I said is that Anders was wrong to blow up the chantry because he killed not only the Grand Cleric, but also many others who would have had little to nothing to do with her questionable actions. Just because the chantry or Elthina did bad things doesn't mean that it's okay for Anders to commit atrocities too.

 

 

Under the circumstances Anders had no other choice but to do what he did to spread the message throughout Thedas that mages will no longer be incarcerated by the Chantry, and to be abused. Like you said the Chantry is a flawed institution. It is a religious institution that is so big that they have (or had) their own military of loyal Templars/Seekers priest that is willing to fight and die in the name of the Maker. It is quite sad that innocent lives was taken away, and we all can agree that it is a tragedy, but unfortunately that is apart of war to which the Chantry is clearly at fault for starting.

 

Grand Cleric Elthina's negligence is what started the fuel, and her failure to deal with her Knight-Commander was the match that lit the fuel in which turned into a blaze.

 

I recommend you to read the novel book: Asunder You'll clearly understand where I am coming from when I support Anders and his decisions of blowing up the Chantry

[teh DRUMPf!!]

How can you compare Anders with Meredith in comparisons? How is he as bad, or even slightly worse? Anders has a legit reason to be paranoid because hes a mage apostate living in a Chantry dominated country. The Chantries authority supersedes the crown. Meredith is running a crusade against the mages over the fact that her parents didn't take her mage sister to the circle, and as a result turned into an abomination that killed her parents, and almost killed her too. She blames the mages over the death of her parents and the 70 people that her abomination sister killed. She refuses to acknowledge that it was her parents that is responsible for not surrendering their mage daughter to the circle. She is in fact an anti Mage Knight-Commander, and the relationship that she has with the First Enchanter further proves it.

How can I? Um, the way I just did, by showing the ways they are similar: both are prejudiced (mainly as a result of past experience), both think they are right in their prejudice and refuse to come down from their stance, both have a hard-on for slaughtering their enemy en masse, both are paranoid about their enemy, both wanted the war that took place, both are ultimately agitators of the conflict.

'Only thing they do not share is allegiance. Same poo, different toilet.
 

As for the non-existent conspiracy to tranquilize all mages is false. It was very well in the existent, just it was not officially accepted by the Divine nor by his Knight-Commander.

 

Which makes it a plot (the work of one person), not a conspiracy (the work of multiple people).

 

But Anders feared some great conspiracy by the Chantry itself, and continues to even after being shown otherwise.

 

After the Chantry was blown up Meredith had the opportunity to arrest Anders on sight, as he clearly confessed to his crimes, and make him face justice for what he done, but no. Her mindset was already clear. She wanted to purge every single mage in the circle by involving RoA ... including children. Meredith is at fault for what happen next as she wanted to have her little war against the mages.

 

Yes, which Anders expected, and why he blew up the Chantry at all; he wanted the ensuing war every bit as much as she did.

 

Meredith invoked the 'Rite with Anders's blessing.

[Lord Raijin]

How can I? Um, the way I just did, by showing the ways they are similar: both are prejudiced (mainly as a result of past experience), both think they are right in their prejudice and refuse to come down from their stance, both have a hard-on for slaughtering their enemy en masse, both are paranoid about their enemy, both wanted the war that took place, both are ultimately agitators of the conflict.

'Only thing they do not share is allegiance. Same poo, different toilet.
 

 

Which makes it a plot (the work of one person), not a conspiracy (the work of multiple people).

 

But Anders feared some great conspiracy by the Chantry itself, and continues to even after being shown otherwise.

 

 

Yes, which Anders expected, and why he blew up the Chantry at all; he wanted the ensuing war every bit as much as she did.

 

Meredith invoked the 'Rite with Anders's blessing.

 

Still doesn't make Anders slightly worse base on his prejudice from past experience. I can't see the similarity of the both. Meredith as Knight-Commander isn't suppose to be prejudice at all. She is suppose be neutral for the sake of peace between Templar’s and the Mages. She is suppose to be a role model for her fellow Templar’s and vice vesa of the First enchanter. Elthina made a crucial error by promoting her to Knight-Commander which later on became fatal because she is in fact very prejudiced against the mages. Even some of her own Templar's admit that things were far better back when she was not the Knight-Commander. Meredith's poor leadership has actually divvied the Templar order in Kirkwall. Templar's who showed sympathy for the mages were actually aiding them in their escape. As time goes by she started losing support from her templars.

 

Meredith's poor leadership caused a revolution against the mages, and Anders or any other mage shouldn't be at fault for this.

 

[Eelectrica]

I kept him alive for Inquisition. Hope he turns up somewhere along the line...

Cole meeting Anders at some point could be interesting.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Still doesn't make Anders slightly worse base on his prejudice from past experience. I can't see the similarity of the both. Meredith as Knight-Commander isn't suppose to be prejudice at all.

 

Neither should Anders be, if he truly is committed to what's best for mages, since we have seen Templars that are plenty helpful to and willing to stick their necks out for mages (some of whom Anders was resolved to kill before asking any questions because, again, his prejudice and bloodlust is rivaled only by that of Meredith's). Or maybe he is just more interested in carrying out his demon's aspect (vengeance) than mages' best interests (demons tend to have that effect).

 

Also, it is wildly hypocritical to say Meredith's negative attitude is wrong but dismiss that of Anders.

 

Meredith's poor leadership caused a revolution against the mages, and Anders or any other mage shouldn't be at fault for this.

 

No one single thing caused the Kirkwall incident. It was many things.

 

But that is beside the point. If the Grand Cleric is dead, the Knight-Commander gains legal authority to annul the Circle. Anders knew that when he blew up the Chantry, killing the Grand Cleric. Anders did it to force confrontation. To say otherwise just contradicts his own words.

 

*edit* And really? Not any other mage should be at fault? Should we salute Tarohne and Quintin for their heroism in the face of oppression? This coddling of mages and placing them above all scrutiny is ridiculous. It was ridiculous from Anders and ridiculous now.

[Insorin]

NO.

[Tremere]

It's more poetic justice to force him to help kill the mages and side with the Templars

This would indeed have been poetic justice! Moreso than the other suggestion.

It's funny how people quantify a characters action in the aftermath without there being any evidence or game content to justify it. In this case, the only place where poetic justice lies is in the mind of the player. I myself, like things a little more concrete. As I've said before on this subject, the only thing I regret about having Hawke end him is that he couldn't separate his head from his neck, nor do it while he was mid-sentence. Even better would have been to do it just after some snark-laden comment. "Your dream is about to come true. You're going to see *justice* first hand... Oh wait!" _FWAHP!

 

BTW... I didn't like him in Awakening either... And yes, I play as a Mage.

[Catche Jagger]

Under the circumstances Anders had no other choice but to do what he did to spread the message throughout Thedas that mages will no longer be incarcerated by the Chantry, and to be abused. Like you said the Chantry is a flawed institution. It is a religious institution that is so big that they have (or had) their own military of loyal Templars/Seekers priest that is willing to fight and die in the name of the Maker. It is quite sad that innocent lives was taken away, and we all can agree that it is a tragedy, but unfortunately that is apart of war to which the Chantry is clearly at fault for starting.

Grand Cleric Elthina's negligence is what started the fuel, and her failure to deal with her Knight-Commander was the match that lit the fuel in which turned into a blaze.

I recommend you to read the novel book: Asunder You'll clearly understand where I am coming from when I support Anders and his decisions of blowing up the Chantry

I have read Asunder, and it did give me a greater understanding of the many flaws the Circles lead to. It lead me to be more accepting of the idea of mage liberation (Well, It was more so reaccepting really. I had been all for the idea before Anders killed a bunch of innocent people. I still am not fully supportive of the idea as I once was). However, having read the book, I don't really understand why I would support the killing of innocents for the cause after reading. Murder is murder, and shedding the blood of more innocent people does nothing more than show that the one committing such atrocities is as ruthless as those he fights against.

[Captain Wiseass]

Yeah, you can think the Chantry sucks and still not be cool with blowing up a bunch of people.

[Lord Raijin]

Neither should Anders be, if he truly is committed to what's best for mages, since we have seen Templars that are plenty helpful to and willing to stick their necks out for mages (some of whom Anders was resolved to kill before asking any questions because, again, his prejudice and bloodlust is rivaled only by that of Meredith's). Or maybe he is just more interested in carrying out his demon's aspect (vengeance) than mages' best interests (demons tend to have that effect).

 

Also, it is wildly hypocritical to say Meredith's negative attitude is wrong but dismiss that of Anders.

 

 

No one single thing caused the Kirkwall incident. It was many things.

 

But that is beside the point. If the Grand Cleric is dead, the Knight-Commander gains legal authority to annul the Circle. Anders knew that when he blew up the Chantry, killing the Grand Cleric. Anders did it to force confrontation. To say otherwise just contradicts his own words.

 

*edit* And really? Not any other mage should be at fault? Should we salute Tarohne and Quintin for their heroism in the face of oppression? This coddling of mages and placing them above all scrutiny is ridiculous. It was ridiculous from Anders and ridiculous now.

 

If you don't mind where did this take place in? Where in any of the ACT series did Anders resolve in killing a Templar who was helpful to the mages? I assume you're speaking with the situation with Ser Thrask in Act of Mercy? The choose that you ultimately make of killing him? That’s irrelevant. If you extort Ser Thrak by using his abomination daughter as lavage to get money off of him Anders gets upset, and gives you a negative 5. I honestly cant see such bloodlust that is resulted in his prejudice, and yes. Justice does have some influences. I'm obligated to agree with you on that part as Anders did acknowledge that Justice is now apart of him. I'm sorry but I have to disagree with the idea of Justice becoming a demon (Force of Vengeance). Theirs no such demon characteristics about Justice, especially in Night Terrors. Justice specialization skills even proves that this “demon” isn't much of a  demon at all, and even if he is one... he certainly has a funny way of expressing it... by becoming a medic for Ander's companions

http://dragonage.wik.../wiki/Vengeance

Why does Meredith need to declare R.o.A on the circle when the mages there had absolutely nothing to do with the Chantry being blown up? The fact that the main suspect (who confessed of the crime in front of everyone) was a few feet away from her! Meredith became bloodlust, and want nothing more than to murder a bunch of innocent people over what 1 mage did.

It didn't the situation when Anders wasn't the primary antagonist but Meredith herself, and before you mention about Orsino... He wasn't originally suppose to turn into this blood magic harvester. EA demanded it to add in another boss.
 

I'm not coddling the mages. I'm just standing up for them for what is right, and locking them up in some tower for the rest of their lives is inhumane and cruel.

[Lord Raijin]

I have read Asunder, and it did give me a greater understanding of the many flaws the Circles lead to. It lead me to be more accepting of the idea of mage liberation (Well, It was more so reaccepting really. I had been all for the idea before Anders killed a bunch of innocent people. I still am not fully supportive of the idea as I once was). However, having read the book, I don't really understand why I would support the killing of innocents for the cause after reading. Murder is murder, and shedding the blood of more innocent people does nothing more than show that the one committing such atrocities is as ruthless as those he fights against.

 

Spoiler

I brought up Asunder simply because at the very end the Divine herself sided with the mages by aiding them in their escape from the White Spire, and helping them (by sending Leliana) destroy their phylacteries. The consequences from the Divines actions resulted in Lord Seekers Lambert's final decision of annulling the Nevarran Accord, separating both the Templars and the Seekers of Truth from the Chantry. Divine Justinia V seems to have a pro mage agenda. Why else would she be searching for a cure for the rite of tranquility?

 

So it seems as if Anders message of blowing up the chantry went all the way to Val Royeaux to the door step of the Divine herself.

 

A pain of a few gives relief to thousands. Sounds harsh, yes.

[Catche Jagger]

Spoiler

I brought up Asunder simply because at the very end the Divine herself sided with the mages by aiding them in their escape from the White Spire, and helping them (by sending Leliana) destroy their phylacteries. The consequences from the Divines actions resulted in Lord Seekers Lambert's final decision of annulling the Nevarran Accord, separating both the Templars and the Seekers of Truth from the Chantry. Divine Justinia V seems to have a pro mage agenda. Why else would she be searching for a cure for the rite of tranquility?

So it seems as if Anders message of blowing up the chantry went all the way to Val Royeaux to the door step of the Divine herself.

A pain of a few gives relief to thousands. Sounds harsh, yes.

I always assumed that the Divine helped save the mages because they still could be reasoned with at that point, whereas Lambert had gone too far. Regardless of whether or not Justinia supported the mages, Lambert had to be stopped.

Your last statement is rather troubling as that is the same justification for the existance of the Circle system: The few (the mages) must suffer (or at least be confined) for the sake of the many. If Anders is justified in his killing of innocents due to the fact that it leads to mage freedom, then by that same logic the Circle system is justified in that it keeps potentially dangerous mages away from the common people.

I just have difficulty seeing Anders as being much better than those he opposes. In the best scenario he is a Well-Intentioned Extremist or He Who Fights Monsters (at least from my perspective)

[Lord Raijin]

I always assumed that the Divine helped save the mages because they still could be reasoned with at that point, whereas Lambert had gone too far. Regardless of whether or not Justinia supported the mages, Lambert had to be stopped.

Your last statement is rather troubling as that is the same justification for the existance of the Circle system: The few (the mages) must suffer (or at least be confined) for the sake of the many. If Anders is justified in his killing of innocents due to the fact that it leads to mage freedom, then by that same logic the Circle system is justified in that it keeps potentially dangerous mages away from the common people.

I just have difficulty seeing Anders as being much better than those he opposes. In the best scenario he is a Well-Intentioned Extremist or He Who Fights Monsters (at least from my perspective)

Same could said about Grand Cleric Elthina. She had done absolutely nothing to stop her crazy Knight-Commander from further damaging the city. Their was no way to reason with her other than to kill her. She had to be physically and forcefully stop. I can understand that it is a drastic approach, and that innocent peoples lives are at risk, but isn't that the point of starting a revolution? To use violence at an attempt to end the current rule of government, and to start a new one? Why should Anders take the heat when Elthina had over 7 years to fix things? To prevent things from escalating  to the point where even Divine Justinia V started to contemplate an Exalted March on the city to end the threat and restore order by sending an agent (Leliana) to determine the extent of the danger. She knew that Orsino and Meredith did not get along with each other, and yet still treats them both like children, and not the respectful powerful adults that they are. She allowed Meredith to get involved in the political affairs in Kirkwall by essentially taking over Viscount duties, and refusing to allow the nobility to cast down their vote for a new Viscount.

 

Elthina had no intentions of even listening to the mages desperate plea for better treatment.

 

At the end Cassandra Pentaghast (Seeker of truth) compiled all of the evidence given to her by Varric, and made her final judgement that Meredith was to blame for what happen.

[Catche Jagger]

Same could said about Grand Cleric Elthina. She had done absolutely nothing to stop her crazy Knight-Commander from further damaging the city. Their was no way to reason with her other than to kill her. She had to be physically and forcefully stop. I can understand that it is a drastic approach, and that innocent peoples lives are at risk, but isn't that the point of starting a revolution? To use violence at an attempt to end the current rule of government, and to start a new one? Why should Anders take the heat when Elthina had over 7 years to fix things? To prevent things from escalating to the point where even Divine Justinia V started to contemplate an Exalted March on the city to end the threat and restore order by sending an agent (Leliana) to determine the extent of the danger. She knew that Orsino and Meredith did not get along with each other, and yet still treats them both like children, and not the respectful powerful adults that they are. She allowed Meredith to get involved in the political affairs in Kirkwall by essentially taking over Viscount duties, and refusing to allow the nobility to cast down their vote for a new Viscount.

Elthina had no intentions of even listening to the mages desperate plea for better treatment.

At the end Cassandra Pentaghast (Seeker of truth) compiled all of the evidence given to her by Varric, and made her final judgement that Meredith was to blame for what happen.

I still don't quite understand how any of this justifies Anders killing so many people. I could understand him killing Elthina just like I can understand Sebastian demanding you kill Anders afterwards, but he didn't just kill Elthina. If he absolutely NEEDED to kill Elthina, couldn't he have found a way that didn't involve killing a bunch of other people? Couldn't he have walked into the Chantry and stabbed her, or froze her, or set her on fire, or used one of the many possible methods at his disposal that didn't involve also killing a bunch of innocent people?

I do not deny that the situation at Kirkwall was awful, and I do not deny that the mages were treated horribly, but Anders' actions show an excessive disregard for the lives of others.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

If you don't mind where did this take place in? Where in any of the ACT series did Anders resolve in killing a Templar who was helpful to the mages? I assume you're speaking with the situation with Ser Thrask in Act of Mercy? The choose that you ultimately make of killing him? That’s irrelevant. If you extort Ser Thrak by using his abomination daughter as lavage to get money off of him Anders gets upset, and gives you a negative 5. I honestly cant see such bloodlust that is resulted in his prejudice,

Thrask was one, yes. Upon arrival, Anders declares, "We are not killing mages for you!" Do I need to explain how idiotic that is? Look no further than the ringleader of those runaways (Decimus). He was scum. Nobody in their right mind should think that the Templars would be wrong to jail or execute that guy. Then when those guys are out of the way, he declares that they will kill Thrask to get the rest of the mages out of there. Now, that becomes unnecessary when Ser Karras appears, because he makes it clear that the mages will be punished harshly. As a result, Thrask is open to letting them go free. Originally, however, Thrask's intent was for the mages to surrender peacefully to avoid harsh punishment. Anders would've killed the guy first. Then he says, "That Thrask seemed a decent man, for a Templar." Yes, Anders, and you would have killed him for wearing a Templar uniform.

Also, when you walk into the anti-Qunari rally with Anders, he will see Ser Varnell and remark, "A Templar?!" If you attack immediately, you get approval from him. And it's not like he approves simply because Varnell is a bad man. Anders does not care if you voice support for Thrask, nor does he if you kill one of the qunari yourself.

Also, after Anders plants his bomb in the Chantry, he tells Hawke about a great feeling that overcomes him as a result of the demon fulfilling its function. Quite frankly, it creeped me out. He sounded like someone on a crack high. If that's not "bloodlust" then nothing is. Dude literally experiences euphoria from planting bombs.
 

and yes. Justice does have some influences. I'm obligated to agree with you on that part as Anders did acknowledge that Justice is now apart of him. I'm sorry but I have to disagree with the idea of Justice becoming a demon (Force of Vengeance). Theirs no such demon characteristics about Justice, especially in Night Terrors. Justice specialization skills even proves that this “demon” isn't much of a  demon at all, and even if he is one... he certainly has a funny way of expressing it... by becoming a medic for Ander's companions

 
Whether the entity inhabiting Anders is a spirit or demon is ultimately semantics. The line between justice and vengeance is very thin, and Justice did not demonstrate very good understanding of that even before merging with Anders. No matter what you call it, the thing is an unworldly and intolerant influence.

 

Why does Meredith need to declare R.o.A on the circle when the mages there had absolutely nothing to do with the Chantry being blown up? The fact that the main suspect (who confessed of the crime in front of everyone) was a few feet away from her! Meredith became bloodlust, and want nothing more than to murder a bunch of innocent people over what 1 mage did.

 

Okay? I am not sure why you are trying to convince me of how bad Meredith is. All I've said about her is that Anders is as bad, and you see what I think of him.

 

Meredith did not need to declare the 'Rite, but it was obvious that she wanted to, and Anders removed the one thing standing in her way.
 

I'm not coddling the mages. I'm just standing up for them for what is right, and locking them up in some tower for the rest of their lives is inhumane and cruel.

 

You were saying not any mages are at fault for the Kirkwall incident. That's nonsense. We saw plenty of mages causing mischief, which gave Templars good reason to crack down, and the excuse that Templar brutality caused it does not work for a couple of them either.

 

Also, the Circle does not require locking mages up for the rest of their lives, so you need not stand up to it at all. We've seen and heard of some that let them leave.

 

Even Kirkwall's miserable Circle allowed Bethany to leave. Twice.

[Lord Raijin]

I still don't quite understand how any of this justifies Anders killing so many people. I could understand him killing Elthina just like I can understand Sebastian demanding you kill Anders afterwards, but he didn't just kill Elthina. If he absolutely NEEDED to kill Elthina, couldn't he have found a way that didn't involve killing a bunch of other people? Couldn't he have walked into the Chantry and stabbed her, or froze her, or set her on fire, or used one of the many possible methods at his disposal that didn't involve also killing a bunch of innocent people?

I do not deny that the situation at Kirkwall was awful, and I do not deny that the mages were treated horribly, but Anders' actions show an excessive disregard for the lives of others.

What justified Anders for doing what he did was because he was in an extreme desperate situation. He saw no other alternative but to do what he did because things wern't getting any better but a lot worse as time goes by. I do not like the idea of innocent peoples life's being taken away anymore more than you... however it is the law of war... a war that was brought on by Elthina's peer negligence of not performing her proper duties as Grand Cleric. Perhaps this is the reason why she decided to become a martyr when she refused to evacuate the city. She wanted to go down with the ship like a captain would do on his ship as it sinks into the bottom of the ocean.

 

Anders not only wanted to kill Elthina, but wanted to send a strong message to everyone across Thedas, and guess what? He successfully did just that. It went all the cross to Val Royeaux. The headquarters of the Chantry.

 

Anders would've had no chance at all to use magic against Elthina at his disposal as shes surrounded by Templar's who can use the holy smite against him. He would be caught and, executed for an attempt of assassinating the Grand Cleric. Since Anders was not on a suicidal mission stabbing her to death wasn't an option because their was no chance in hell he would escape without getting an arrow in the back by an archer.

[Lord Raijin]

Thrask was one, yes. Upon arrival, Anders declares, "We are not killing mages for you!" Do I need to explain how idiotic that is? Look no further than the ringleader of those runaways (Decimus). He was scum. Nobody in their right mind should think that the Templars would be wrong to jail or execute that guy. Then when those guys are out of the way, he declares that they will kill Thrask to get the rest of the mages out of there. Now, that becomes unnecessary when Ser Karras appears, because he makes it clear that the mages will be punished harshly. As a result, Thrask is open to letting them go free. Originally, however, Thrask's intent was for the mages to surrender peacefully to avoid harsh punishment. Anders would've killed the guy first. Then he says, "That Thrask seemed a decent man, for a Templar." Yes, Anders, and you would have killed him for wearing a Templar uniform.

Also, when you walk into the anti-Qunari rally with Anders, he will see Ser Varnell and remark, "A Templar?!" If you attack immediately, you get approval from him. And it's not like he approves simply because Varnell is a bad man. Anders does not care if you voice support for Thrask, nor does he if you kill one of the qunari yourself.

Also, after Anders plants his bomb in the Chantry, he tells Hawke about a great feeling that overcomes him as a result of the demon fulfilling its function. Quite frankly, it creeped me out. He sounded like someone on a crack high. If that's not "bloodlust" then nothing is. Dude literally experiences euphoria from planting bombs.
 

 
Whether the entity inhabiting Anders is a spirit or demon is ultimately semantics. The line between justice and vengeance is very thin, and Justice did not demonstrate very good understanding of that even before merging with Anders. No matter what you call it, the thing is an unworldly and intolerant influence.

 

 

Okay? I am not sure why you are trying to convince me of how bad Meredith is. All I've said about her is that Anders is as bad, and you see what I think of him.

 

Meredith did not need to declare the 'Rite, but it was obvious that she wanted to, and Anders removed the one thing standing in her way.
 

 

You were saying not any mages are at fault for the Kirkwall incident. That's nonsense. We saw plenty of mages causing mischief, which gave Templars good reason to crack down, and the excuse that Templar brutality caused it does not work for a couple of them either.

 

Also, the Circle does not require locking mages up for the rest of their lives, so you need not stand up to it at all. We've seen and heard of some that let them leave.

 

Even Kirkwall's miserable Circle allowed Bethany to leave. Twice.

 

I don't see the problem with Anders making it crystal clear with Thrask (A Templar) that he or Hawkes companions aren't going to do his dirty work by killing the escaped Starkhaven mages for him. He doesn't know Thrask all that much. In fact he doesn't know him at all. He's just another mage hunting Templar in his eyes. For all he knows Thrask might be one of those lazy cowardly Templar’s who's afraid of confronting a group of desperate fleeing mages who do not want to return back to the circle to face their punishment (death) for escaping.

 

If the Starkhaven mages are returned to the Circle during the Act of Mercy Quest later on in ACT 1 Thrask in the Gallows courtyard will tell Hawke that Meredith ordered three Starkhaven mages executed at random. How is Decimus a scum when hes trying to avoid Templar’s executing him and his fellow mages? The fact to the matter is he was so desperate that he turned to blood magic to protect his flock against the vicious Templar's who was after his people. This also further proves that surrendering peacefully is futile when Meredith randomly executing these mages, who was promise of being unharmed if they surrender without a fight.

 

Anders did warm up to Thrask later on as he becomes annoyed by Hawke for trying to extort him by using his abomination daughter as lavage for money. He gives you a 5- disapproval ratings.

 

Ser Varnell is not the pillar of what the Templar's are suppose to represent. He is a racist pig who needs to die. Look at how he treats the Qunari people. Sorry but who would in the right mind would support this idiot Templar? Why use it against Ander's when he gives you an approval rating for attacking him on sight? So what if 1 bad Templar parish. Kirkwall is better off with one less corrupted Templar.

 

Why do you think the mages was causing mischief? Why do you think their was a blood mage issue in the city? Because their all evil? No it couldn't be. The fact to the matter is the very moment Meredith became Knight-Commander was the day that Kirkwall started to decay.

Where did you hear that from? That the circle doesn't require locking mages up for the rest of their lives? Of course its a life sentence. Bethany was allowed to temporary leave because her sister/brother requested her presence during a mission, and as the champion of Kirkwall their was no objection of rejection of Orsino and Meredith. Once the mission is completed Bethany was to return back to the circle... if she does not then they can track her down using her phylactery.

 

The only way that a mage can successfully leave the circle permanently is if the mage was conscripted into the ranks of the Grey wardens. Just like the situation in the Magi Origin.

[Lucky Thirteen]

I like Ander's sometimes. Usually when he's not glowing or asking Hawke to collect poop.