833 réponses à ce sujet

[Catche Jagger]

What justified Anders for doing what he did was because he was in an extreme desperate situation. He saw no other alternative but to do what he did because things wern't getting any better but a lot worse as time goes by. I do not like the idea of innocent peoples life's being taken away anymore more than you... however it is the law of war... a war that was brought on by Elthina's peer negligence of not performing her proper duties as Grand Cleric. Perhaps this is the reason why she decided to become a martyr when she refused to evacuate the city. She wanted to go down with the ship like a captain would do on his ship as it sinks into the bottom of the ocean.

 

Anders not only wanted to kill Elthina, but wanted to send a strong message to everyone across Thedas, and guess what? He successfully did just that. It went all the cross to Val Royeaux. The headquarters of the Chantry.

 

Anders would've had no chance at all to use magic against Elthina at his disposal as shes surrounded by Templar's who can use the holy smite against him. He would be caught and, executed for an attempt of assassinating the Grand Cleric. Since Anders was not on a suicidal mission stabbing her to death wasn't an option because their was no chance in hell he would escape without getting an arrow in the back by an archer.

 

A desperate situation doesn't justify the murder of uninvolved innocents.

Meredith was also in a 'desperate situation' in which her superior along with many others were killed by a mage. This was the last straw for her in the series of violent incidents involving apostates which had plagued the city for years. These mages along with their dangerous magic had to be coming from somewhere and Orsino had refused Meredith's demand to search the Circle. Now, all Meredith could see is that the mages had troubled her city for long enough and the Circle had to be Annulled to ensure that any corrupting influence was purged.

 

^Do you see that? We can make justifications for the murder of innocents all we like, but that doesn't change that it is murder. Anders, regardless of his intentions, is still a murderer.

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And that message Anders sent had to involve killing a bunch of random civilians? The only message that sends is that mages have no regard for the lives of 'mundanes'. Just killing the Grand Cleric would still have sent a message and Meredith would have still Annulled the Circle, but it would have done so without sacrificing more lives.

----

 

Lastly, Anders, regardless of whether he is friend or rival, is perfectly willing to die for his actions, whether it be as punishment or to make him a martyr. I see no reason why he would not be willing to perform a suicide mission to send his message.

[Lord Raijin]

A desperate situation doesn't justify the murder of uninvolved innocents.

Meredith was also in a 'desperate situation' in which her superior along with many others were killed by a mage. This was the last straw for her in the series of violent incidents involving apostates which had plagued the city for years. These mages along with their dangerous magic had to be coming from somewhere and Orsino had refused Meredith's demand to search the Circle. Now, all Meredith could see is that the mages had troubled her city for long enough and the Circle had to be Annulled to ensure that any corrupting influence was purged.

 

^Do you see that? We can make justifications for the murder of innocents all we like, but that doesn't change that it is murder. Anders, regardless of his intentions, is still a murderer.

----

 

And that message Anders sent had to involve killing a bunch of random civilians? The only message that sends is that mages have no regard for the lives of 'mundanes'. Just killing the Grand Cleric would still have sent a message and Meredith would have still Annulled the Circle, but it would have done so without sacrificing more lives.

----

 

Lastly, Anders, regardless of whether he is friend or rival, is perfectly willing to die for his actions, whether it be as punishment or to make him a martyr. I see no reason why he would not be willing to perform a suicide mission to send his message.

 

Well then let me ask you a question... What could Anders had done differently in such duress times? Let me remind you that he was unable to go to the Viscount asking for help because he was killed by the Arishok during the Qunari invasion. Seeking help from the Grand Cleric was out of the question because she didn't do a damn thing. What in the Maker could Ander's do that could of resulted in a more positive outcome? To do exactly what Orsino occasionally do? To make a public appearances about how mages aren't as evil as the Templar's and the Chantry want to preach to the public about? That method doesn't seem to work out.

 

No Meredith was not in a “desperate situation” as she was the root of all of the problems that was going on in the city. She was the problem and created these duress situations that ended up costing a lot of people their lives, including the innocent mages (children and the young) from the Circle. You are misinformed. Orsino did pleaded out to Meredith to cancel the R.o.A, and even told her that he would assist her in rooting out any blood mages that is in the circle. He tried his best to keep his circle mages safe, but Meredith wanted revenge... a revenge that 1 single mage had done. She had no intentions of executing the person responsible for blowing up the Circle. She wanted to put every single mage that is in the circle, that including children and the elderly to the sword!

 

If you want to call Anders a terrorist and a murderer then you must also label Meredith as being one too. It is only fair that both take the responsibility for what happen in Kirkwall. 2 wrongs do not make a right. Like I said before Meredith had the chance to arrest Anders (As he was a few feet away from her while the chantry was being blown up!) and publicly execute him the next day, but she didn't take that chance, but wanted to put every single mage in the circle to the sword... a crime that they didn't even do.

[Catche Jagger]

Well then let me ask you a question... What could Anders had done differently in such duress times? Let me remind you that he was unable to go to the Viscount asking for help because he was killed by the Arishok during the Qunari invasion. Seeking help from the Grand Cleric was out of the question because she didn't do a damn thing. What in the Maker could Ander's do that could of resulted in a more positive outcome? To do exactly what Orsino occasionally do? To make a public appearances about how mages aren't as evil as the Templar's and the Chantry want to preach to the public about? That method doesn't seem to work out.

No Meredith was not in a “desperate situation” as she was the root of all of the problems that was going on in the city. She was the problem and created these duress situations that ended up costing a lot of people their lives, including the innocent mages (children and the young) from the Circle. You are misinformed. Orsino did pleaded out to Meredith to cancel the R.o.A, and even told her that he would assist her in rooting out any blood mages that is in the circle. He tried his best to keep his circle mages safe, but Meredith wanted revenge... a revenge that 1 single mage had done. She had no intentions of executing the person responsible for blowing up the Circle. She wanted to put every single mage that is in the circle, that including children and the elderly to the sword!

If you want to call Anders a terrorist and a murderer then you must also label Meredith as being one too. It is only fair that both take the responsibility for what happen in Kirkwall. 2 wrongs do not make a right. Like I said before Meredith had the chance to arrest Anders (As he was a few feet away from her while the chantry was being blown up!) and publicly execute him the next day, but she didn't take that chance, but wanted to put every single mage in the circle to the sword... a crime that they didn't even do.

I put "desperate situation" in quotes for a reason. The implication was that Meredith was wrong too, as I have said earlier. I have never once tried to absolve Meredith or even Elthina for the wrongs they committed, all I have been arguing is that Anders is wrong for blowing up the chantry. Didn't he cause the deaths of everyone inside along with people nearby possibly "including children and the elderly"?

The fact that other people are did horrible things doesn't change that what Anders did was horrible too.

[LD Little Dragon]

And that message Anders sent had to involve killing a bunch of random civilians? The only message that sends is that mages have no regard for the lives of 'mundanes'. Just killing the Grand Cleric would still have sent a message and Meredith would have still Annulled the Circle, but it would have done so without sacrificing more lives.

Just killing the Grand Cleric would not have sent the same message.

 

The way I see it Anders' wasn't just killing the Grand Cleric his bomb was meant to blow up the Chantry.

 

It was a symbol, a big-ass glowing symbol that the problem in Kirkwall was due to more than Meredith and Elthina.  The problems were rooted in the Chantry and their ingrained anti-mage doctrines.

 

That was what 'no compromise' meant.  Just killing Meredith or the Grand Cleric would have been a stop-gap measure, ultimately changing nothing.

 

It's the entire system that needed to change, the system that supported Meredith, that preached about the curse of magic, never the benefits, and that gave people a life sentance for the crime of being born.

 

I'm not denying Anders was a terrorist.  You need to remember that, despite current world events, terrorists are not always the 'bad guys'.

 

The question is was Anders justified?  Blowing up the Chantry was wrong, even Anders admits that, but it can be argued that it was justified.  Failure to act would lead to no one knows how many more years of the status quo.

 

The Chantry had 900 years to learn a better way of dealing with mages.

 

There was no sign that the Chantry would ever loosen their grip.  In fact, over the years life in the Circles got worse.  Both the Right of Annulement (which means every mage, including chldren die, Bethany should have died if Hawke sided the templars, Bioware hadn't wussed out and ignored their own lore) and the rite of tranquility came into being after the Circles were initially set up.

 

In-game I've played Hawkes who side with the templars and Hawkes who side with the mages.  Good arguments can be made for all sides.

 

Outside the game I am, and always will be, firmly against the idea of collective punishment.

 

The Circles as they were had to go.  I can agree with mandatory training for mages, but not life imprisonment.  (And Bethany wasn't 'let go' to join Hawke, she was only granted a temporary parole, she was always a prisoner.)

[Lord Raijin]

I put "desperate situation" in quotes for a reason. The implication was that Meredith was wrong too, as I have said earlier. I have never once tried to absolve Meredith or even Elthina for the wrongs they committed, all I have been arguing is that Anders is wrong for blowing up the chantry. Didn't he cause the deaths of everyone inside along with people nearby possibly "including children and the elderly"?

The fact that other people are did horrible things doesn't change that what Anders did was horrible too.

 

Like I said before its a tragedy that it happen, but it was a justifiable act on Anders part. A revolution was needed to regain a new order for Kirkwall. With Elthina dead and Meredith defeated in battle, guess what? The nobility can now vote for a new Viscount (Unless if you side with the Templars then you become the new ruler, for a short time) and the message of what Anders did went globe, even to the doorstep of the Divine. Anders could of very well did the city a great deed by doing what he did, since the Chantry was clearly dominating and meddling Kirkwalls' political affairs. His actions could of very change the Chantries regulations of how they treat mages... Just look at Asunder

 

In order for change to occur things need to happen. When things happen can cost a great price. That is what I meant when I previously stated in my previous post that a pain of a few gives relief to thousands.

 

Anders wouldn't had done what he if Elthina took her duties as Grand Cleric seriously.

 

What would you had done differently if you were in Anders robes?

[teh DRUMPf!!]

I don't see the problem with Anders making it crystal clear with Thrask (A Templar) that he or Hawkes companions aren't going to do his dirty work by killing the escaped Starkhaven mages for him. He doesn't know Thrask all that much. In fact he doesn't know him at all. He's just another mage hunting Templar in his eyes. For all he knows Thrask might be one of those lazy cowardly Templar’s who's afraid of confronting a group of desperate fleeing mages who do not want to return back to the circle to face their punishment (death) for escaping.

 
Yes, well, that thing goes both ways. Why did Anders jump to the mages' side? Who's to say those mages were not possessed by demons, or just rotten individuals that are a public menace? Anders always blindly sides with the mages. Yet sometimes, the mage side of a conflict is in the wrong. What does that make Anders, when he stands in the way of those trying to correct the problem? It makes him part of the problem himself, as I said earlier (at the conclusion of my original reply).

 

If the Starkhaven mages are returned to the Circle during the Act of Mercy Quest later on in ACT 1 Thrask in the Gallows courtyard will tell Hawke that Meredith ordered three Starkhaven mages executed at random. How is Decimus a scum when hes trying to avoid Templar’s executing him and his fellow mages?

Decimus did not have knowledge of Hawke's business. He attacked without finding out. For all he knew, Hawke & Co were agents of the Mage Underground (which Hawke actually can be, later on in this game, for which he ventures into caves where apostates are hiding to help free them).
 
That excuse is not valid here.
 

Anders did warm up to Thrask later on as he becomes annoyed by Hawke for trying to extort him by using his abomination daughter as lavage for money. He gives you a 5- disapproval ratings.

Only because Anders did not have his way earlier. If he did, Thrask would be dead.
 

Ser Varnell is not the pillar of what the Templar's are suppose to represent. He is a racist pig who needs to die. Look at how he treats the Qunari people. Sorry but who would in the right mind would support this idiot Templar? Why use it against Ander's when he gives you an approval rating for attacking him on sight? So what if 1 bad Templar parish. Kirkwall is better off with one less corrupted Templar.

Except you can take Varnell's side in the rally and Anders will not care.
 

Why do you think the mages was causing mischief? Why do you think their was a blood mage issue in the city? Because their all evil? No it couldn't be. The fact to the matter is the very moment Meredith became Knight-Commander was the day that Kirkwall started to decay.

 
No. No. No, no, no, no, no. The Templars had nothing to do with Tahrone, Idunna, and her buddies. They were under absolutely no influence of theirs. Tahrone was so corrupt it would make a Tevinter magister blush. If you think the Templars are wrong to lock away the likes of her and Decimus, then you are just blithely disregarding public security. Ironically, mages in the Circle would not be affected only because the Circle is protected by Templars.
 
The Templars are not responsible for Quintin, either. He was operating outside the Circle, and had an insider keeping him hidden (Orsino). Emeric, a Templar, was the guy who came closest to catching him. If it were up to Anders, nobody would have made it even that far, since he is so opposed to Templars hunting mages.
 
Both sides added fuel to the fire. I am not saying mages are the only thing to blame, just that you are wrong to say that not "any" mages were at fault for what happened. It's called The Last Straw for a reason.

 

Where did you hear that from? That the circle doesn't require locking mages up for the rest of their lives? Of course its a life sentence. Bethany was allowed to temporary leave because her sister/brother requested her presence during a mission, and as the champion of Kirkwall their was no objection of rejection of Orsino and Meredith. Once the mission is completed Bethany was to return back to the circle... if she does not then they can track her down using her phylactery.
 
The only way that a mage can successfully leave the circle permanently is if the mage was conscripted into the ranks of the Grey wardens. Just like the situation in the Magi Origin.

Bethany could leave, not only for the family emergency (and before Hawke is the city's Champion), but also to attend an Orlesian party. Do you think there's no way a mage could take advantage of that privilege to break free? Of course there is, and with everything wrong with Meredith and the Kirkwall's Circle, one would not expect her to grant such privileges to her mages. Yet she does, even if Hawke is not yet the Champion of Kirkwall (speaking of which, when I said that Hawke's status in the city would likely deter Templars from mistreating her, you disagreed, yet now you are saying that it's the only reason she gets her leave). And again, this is the worst-functioning Circle in Thedas we are talking about, so other Circles are bound to be more accommodating.
 
Other mages we've seen that can take leave: Wynne, Finn, Vivienne, Shale's owner... I am sure there are others that are just not coming to mind for me right now. Vivienne indicates that the Monsimmard (sp?) Circle let their mages go basically wherever they wanted. Guess who ruined that privilege for them?

[Eikenflei]

Interesting discussion and I have seen a few good points.

 

I personally love Anders and I propably would have reacted the same way in his situation. The reason why many people cannot connect to this is because in real life most people who play the game are not part of a marginal group which gets terrorized by society which leads to them having a quite naiv black/white view of the world. They assume they will be always able to take the moral high road in their lifes just because they were lucky enough they were never forced to act amorally until now.

 

Of course his actions were not right from a moral perspective. But to get the whole picture one has to think more in terms of what works than in terms of what is right. Moral is no absolute. There are different perspectives onto moral. For example the chantry has a different view onto moral than for example Morrigan. There is only one perspective onto moral if you believe in the maker or one god or whatever who could have an objective view. But believers cant prove that there is a maker or one god so in reality there are always more valid perspectives onto moral.

 

When we talk about what works in real life. Needed changes were never, ever accomplished peacefully in history of mankind. While it is true that the changes which last are done by reasonable people without violence and almost every revolution ends in a gorefest without accomplishing anything directly. You have to think about why reasonable people change the world after gorefests and revolutions. Because they want to avoid another gorefest. So what would have happended if there had been no gorefest? Right, nothing because then reasonable people dont see reasons to change anything. It's just how humans work. They won't change a system which works for most for them. Why sould they? That would be stupid. At the end of the day everyone is a selfish ******. So only thing you can do is to "make the system also not work for them" which is surprisingly done to at least some degree by violent acts. Sadly most people who can take the moral high road for their whole life because they are not forced otherwise can't see the painfully obvious truth. Change will always be connected to violance. In fact the very essence of change is violence.

 

So yes, I think terrorism to some degree is a necessary element of every society. If it wouldn't be necessary it wouldn't exists you know ^^? I even go so far to say terrorism is almost as important for socienty as the guys who shoot the terrorists in the face to protect society.

 

My reference is the french revolution. It directly changed nothing and lead to another emperor but in the aftermaths reasonable people started thinking and it lead to something good imo.

[Spooky81]

He must have OD'd on lyrium sand and suffered brain damage between Awakening and DA2.  Sense of humor is gone and he's more mellow - complete personality change.  His hatred of the Chantry system for mages is the only thing that's really retained from Awakening.

[Eikenflei]

I don't see a change of Anders personality. He was always like he was in DA2. He just grew older and noticed that he will never reach his idealisitic goals, resignated to some degree until he couldn't hold it anymore and had a complete break down. Sensitive ídealists often break down completely when they are confronted with reality.

[Aren]

yes if you are a terrorist then you will love him.

[LD Little Dragon]

yes if you are a terrorist then you will love him.

Chantry go Boom.

 

Pro-freedom Hawkes do a victory dance on the ashes.

[Natureguy85]

He is one-dimensional and dull, but so are all the other characters. I do like their interaction with each other though.

 

I should add that I liked Awakening Anders. He was more fun and seemed less full of hate, even though he didn't like Templars and wanted freedom. It's all the Warden's fault for making him get rid of Ser Pouncelot.

[Vegeta 77]

No i hate what he did at the end of da2 but i hate him more cause he never shuts up about templars and mages. Moans all the time made me uncomfortable with the flirt. I liked him in Daa but turned him into a moaning girl 24/7. Just like Carver said he never shuts up about it and his right  just does my head in.

[Metalunatic]

Awakening Anders was the best one of the two, but I can't say I dislike the DA2 one.

[God]

Awakening Anders was the best. He was just an irreverant though fun-loving guy who just wanted to live his life without being locked away (even if it was his own actions that got him locked away). 

 

DA:II Anders was nuts. He had a valid point of wanting to make things better for mages, but he failed entirely in the execution of it. 

[Althix]

after DAI i pity Anders. He died for nothing.

[DEUGH Man]

I could relate to him, and I could understand his actions, but I couldn't condone them. He was a good guy who did a terrible thing in the name of a good cause. I try not to let that one action define what was a character that I really considered to be one of Hawke's best friends.

 

I only got two hours into Awakening before getting bored of it. I can't really speak for Awakening Anders.

[Major Crackhead]

Liked Anders, hated Janders.

[Lucky Thirteen]

I could relate to him, and I could understand his actions, but I couldn't condone them. He was a good guy who did a terrible thing in the name of a good cause. I try not to let that one action define what was a character that I really considered to be one of Hawke's best friends.

 

I only got two hours into Awakening before getting bored of it. I can't really speak for Awakening Anders.

 

I'm in the same boat. I saw Anders as a very close friend to Hawke, he saved her sister and probably healed her own injuries more times than she could count. Plus she was very pro-mage and whenever he got going she tended to join in. Though things got a little unstable towards the end with the whole poo collecting thing, it was kind of like a moment of seeing your best friend starting to do sketchy things but having no idea how to help them if it is necessary at all. Trying to help could make things worse if they are in fact not doing anything sketchy, especially after seven years of trust and friendship.

 

I played DA2 first, then played through DA:O and Awakening. Let's put it this way, Pre-Justice Anders would never in a million years start a clinic to help poor people get free health care. He was a selfish, slimy bastard. He was funny and the cat thing was adorable and he was generally likable, but he was a selfish bastard and roping him into becoming a warden was probably the stupidest thing to do. But hey, how was the HOF/Warden Commander to know Anders true character when he batted those pretty brown eyes.

 

What Anders did do in Awakening that I felt wasn't new, was be bitter and complain about the plight of mages. Justice just took out the selfish bastard, chipped away at the funny/cute parts that everyone loved, and then super amplified the bitter anger towards Circles and Templars. 

 

I really think Anders progression as a character is pretty cool and makes a lot of sense. Again, I don't condone his actions, but he is a very tragic and complex character. As long as he's not going angry Justice mode just for dramatic show.

[Helmetto]

I don't hate Anders, as a character, nor as a person. But he is by no means a tragic or sympathetic figure, and my respect for him diminished when he called the murder of innocents "justice." In fact, that alone, plus the fact that he allows himself at the mercy of Hawke to decide his fate, just kind of makes him the worst kind of person. 

 

Sorry, but if he is so lacking in empathy as to fail entirely to understand that his actions would do more harm than good -because that's what war is, ulitmately, as Inquisition has shown us - then he does not deserve to have to be understood, or viewed as "sympathetic and tragic," or anything of the sort. That's not disliking him or hating him, that's fairness. Why should I feel sorry for one who had no sympathy for those he harmed? Who willing spilt the blood of someone who hadn't even done anything wrong just to start a war. We're talking about a culprit who was so selfish, so lacking in empathy, so downright indifferent to the true consequences of his actions that he found it perfectly acceptable to do unto others the evil that was done unto him, recognizing it was evil and unjustified, while entirely ignoring the fact that they didn't do anything at all. He's not a tragic figure, because his actions were not only entirely unnecessary, but ultimately led to the suffering of thousands of people, all for the sake of his own self-proclaimed justice.

 

That he was treated badly, or that his fellow mages were treated badly, is not something that justifies or excuses anything. It's bad, for sure. However, it also doesn't excuse using innocent lives as window dressing to your own selfish desperation, particularly when that desperation is at least partially your own fault. The fear of mages in Kirkwall didn't suddenly pop up out of nowhere, it was a direct result of all the blood magic. Blood magic wasn't feared because it had a snazzy sinister name to it - it became that way because people saw other people do really bad things with it. It didn't help that you had Captain Crazy on the wheel, but she herself is a more sympathetic character (as it was fear and paranoia that drove her to madness) than the guy who thought it was a good idea to bomb a church.

 

So yes, Anders is an evil bastard, and ultimately someone I will entirely forget about.

[Natureguy85]

 

I don't hate Anders, as a character, nor as a person. But he is by no means a tragic or sympathetic figure, and my respect for him diminished when he called the murder of innocents "justice." In fact, that alone, plus the fact that he allows himself at the mercy of Hawke to decide his fate, just kind of makes him the worst kind of person. 

 

Sorry, but if he is so lacking in empathy as to fail entirely to understand that his actions would do more harm than good -because that's what war is, ulitmately, as Inquisition has shown us - then he does not deserve to have to be understood, or viewed as "sympathetic and tragic," or anything of the sort. That's not disliking him or hating him, that's fairness. Why should I feel sorry for one who had no sympathy for those he harmed? Who willing spilt the blood of someone who hadn't even done anything wrong just to start a war. We're talking about a culprit who was so selfish, so lacking in empathy, so downright indifferent to the true consequences of his actions that he found it perfectly acceptable to do unto others the evil that was done unto him, recognizing it was evil and unjustified, while entirely ignoring the fact that they didn't do anything at all. He's not a tragic figure, because his actions were not only entirely unnecessary, but ultimately led to the suffering of thousands of people, all for the sake of his own self-proclaimed justice.

 

That he was treated badly, or that his fellow mages were treated badly, is not something that justifies or excuses anything. It's bad, for sure. However, it also doesn't excuse using innocent lives as window dressing to your own selfish desperation, particularly when that desperation is at least partially your own fault. The fear of mages in Kirkwall didn't suddenly pop up out of nowhere, it was a direct result of all the blood magic. Blood magic wasn't feared because it had a snazzy sinister name to it - it became that way because people saw other people do really bad things with it. It didn't help that you had Captain Crazy on the wheel, but she herself is a more sympathetic character (as it was fear and paranoia that drove her to madness) than the guy who thought it was a good idea to bomb a church.

 

So yes, Anders is an evil bastard, and ultimately someone I will entirely forget about.

 

 

Well said, but he also doesn't fit the classical definition of a tragic hero either. He isn't doomed to die because of some fatal flaw. He isn't cut down after going crazy as Vengeance. He sits there like a lump after targeting the peaceful, civilian arm of the chantry while leaving the martial wing untouched. This last part never made sense to me. And because he says Justice is part of him, rather than having two distinct personalities, he can't use the "It wasn't me, it was X" argument.

[Lucky Thirteen]

I find him to be at tragic figure because of the fact the world itself has driven him to this. You can't walk two steps around the gallows without hearing about the rape and assault done to mages. You can't walk two steps without hearing about mages being made tranquil for no apparent reason other than they are easier to rape and assault then. You can't take two steps without hearing templars talking about mages not being people. The kirkwall circle was probably the pits worse of the worse, but it simply had everything wrong with the circles in one place.

 

I don't condone what Anders did, he killed innocent people, but I see what he did as a response to what the world did to him.

 

The Chantry has the power to change things, but despite many peaceful attempts by the mages for help, the Chantry continues to look the other way and ignore the fact there are innocent lives being murdered, abused, and raped daily in the circles. No instead, the Chantry keeps willfully, purposely feeding the Templars mind altering, addictive, lyrium that is probably the exact reason the Templars are aggressive, paranoid, and out of control drug addicts who easily succumb to the temptation of red lyrium.

 

There were innocent people killed by what Anders did, but if you ask me between the mages and templars, the Chantry has a hell of a lot more innocent blood on it's hands. Violence creates more violence, the Chantry started the violence.

 

If you keep beating a dog, some day they will snap and rip into someone's face. Either it's you, your family, or some neighborhood kid that had nothing to do with it. Then who's really at fault, the dog or you for beating that dog every day of their life. 

[Helmetto]

I find him to be at tragic figure because of the fact the world itself has driven him to this. You can't walk two steps around the gallows without hearing about the rape and assault done to mages. You can't walk two steps without hearing about mages being made tranquil for no apparent reason other than they are easier to rape and assault then. You can't take two steps without hearing templars talking about mages not being people. The kirkwall circle was probably the pits worse of the worse, but it simply had everything wrong with the circles in one place.

 

I don't condone what Anders did, he killed innocent people, but I see what he did as a response to what the world did to him.

 

The Chantry has the power to change things, but despite many peaceful attempts by the mages for help, the Chantry continues to look the other way and ignore the fact there are innocent lives being murdered, abused, and raped daily in the circles. No instead, the Chantry keeps willfully, purposely feeding the Templars mind altering, addictive, lyrium that is probably the exact reason the Templars are aggressive, paranoid, and out of control drug addicts who easily succumb to the temptation of red lyrium.

 

There were innocent people killed by what Anders did, but if you ask me between the mages and templars, the Chantry has a hell of a lot more innocent blood on it's hands. Violence creates more violence, the Chantry started the violence.

 

If you keep beating a dog, some day they will snap and rip into someone's face. Either it's you, your family, or some neighborhood kid that had nothing to do with it. Then who's really at fault, the dog or you for beating that dog every day of their life. 

 

Except Anders isn't a dog, he's a human being who's fully capable of making his own damned decisions using thoughts and reason instead blindly following his own instincts and feelings.

 

"Hey Templars! Totally your fault that this appostate mage who knew nothing about what was actually happening in the circle and condemned pretty much every other mage that escaped because they were desperate enough to try blood magic blew up that church full of innocent people. I mean, we totally support his actions, even though he started a battle that led to the deaths of hundreds of our people, including those who didn't even want to fight, because he didn't realize that the Templars could take out our shrinking population of mages. Totally supported his actions, despite the fact that there was a chance for peace after all. Totally your fault that the chantry got blown to bits though."

 

I'm pretty sure neither Orsino or Meredith was happy with Anders when that went down.

 

The Chantry has its problems, but it by no means condoned the actions of the Templars. In fact, Anders blew up the Chantry because it was actually going to go and do something that would be helpful. It may have sat on its hands, but it wasn't without just cause.

 

And if you're going to blame the Chantry, then you might as well blame the entirety of Kirkwall; one person alone did not uphold the countless atrocities against the mages, after all. Kirkwall entirely deserved to be thrown to all hell as Templars and Mages started beating the **** out of each other. Everybody in Kirkwall had it coming.

 

Except no. They didn't.