833 réponses à ce sujet

[Seracen]

Oh, by no means do I consider Anders a forgivable character.  His actions are completely irrational.  I'm sure that it was supposed to be presented in some tragic, melodramatic, "grey area" fashion.  However, by the time I saw that scene, I figured: "yep...he's completely insane.  Merging with a passionate DEMON pretty much murdered what he once had been."

 

So...tragedy in that he became the very symbol of why mages were reviled, and he also became the vileness that he once held in contempt.  Further tragic b/c he was so far gone, he no longer cared, and still felt righteous.  As for the act itself...

 

I'm not sure that the mage rebellion wound't have happened anyway.  Perhaps it's due to the retconning/affirmation in DA3, but they pretty much stated that those sentiments had been boiling over for years.  Maybe the revolution wouldn't have been as violent, but between Anders and Meredith, it was headed in that direction eventually.  It's just a question of how much collateral damage could have been prevented.

 

As for how it was PRESENTED...oh no, that sucked.  While I enjoyed DA2, I did so simply as a facet of a much better overall franchise.  Had DA2 come out first, I may not have minded as much, but it didn't.  I still say that a solid year of editing the story (and working on textures) could have turned it into a much better product, even with the poor (ie "repetitive") level design.

 

However, considering how rushed the project was, I can still appreciate DA2.  Moreover, this rushed project still managed to be better than more developed products from many other companies.  Doesn't excuse DA2, and DA3 still has its faults; but I still have faith in BW moving forward, so long as they learn from these experiences.  Few in the industry create as robust a story and characters as BW, after all; and quality RPGs seem a dying breed in the modern era of me-too FPS and GTA-clones.

[Mikoto8472]

Actually I do like Anders.

 

Admittedly I liked him better in Awakening but it was nonetheless interesting watching him change after he merged with Justice. His romance was far more enjoyable than Fenris' was. (Played a straight female Hawke.) His cause was admirable, trying to free an oppressed and enslaved people from cruel, drug addicted fanatics with swords. Karras and Alrik were enough for me. And I know, not all Templars are like that but a system that even allows such individuals to do those things and not be punished needed overthrowing. The other deal breaker was stealing babies just after birth if a female mage got pregnant. I don't hold with that.

 

But all that being said, no I don't approve of him murdering 100 people at the Chantry. Unfortunately I can't see a better way to accomplish his goals either.

[Natureguy85]

I don't know about that as he was trying to argue for freedom for mages which is fair enough given they spend their lives locked in towers when they come into their power. The only problem in DA2 is the fact that a lot of the Kirkwall mages were practicing blood magic which we know is bad. We saw this earlier in the game with Merril and again at the end. Not all mages are evil and a lot are genuinely nice people like Anders I believe. I think that while his actions were understandable he just took them at the wrong place and at the wrong time because it ends up causing a war which ends up leading into Inquisition's story where it's your job to try and pick up the pieces somehow.

 

No, his actions were not understandable. They were not only wrong, but also stupid and contrary to his original goal of freedom for mages. He wants war now. While his grievance may have been legitimate, his actions were not.

[mireisen]

I liked Anders up until...

 

 

Then I rerolled and tried to stop the kiss...it didn't work well. If anything I pity the kind of fall he went through. He should've been cut down when his reins on his sanity loosened. I'm not saying he should've been killed right away, but crazy people can be dangerous. Extremists are even more dangerous. Crazy extremists are the most dangerous of all!

 

Kudos to Bioware for putting up this dilemma, though, because it's rather relevant to RL issues too.

[sjsharp2011]

No, his actions were not understandable. They were not only wrong, but also stupid and contrary to his original goal of freedom for mages. He wants war now. While his grievance may have been legitimate, his actions were not.

That's what I said I understood his grievance and he was right about that but the actions he took to try to fix them were wrong

[Natureguy85]

Oh, by no means do I consider Anders a forgivable character.  His actions are completely irrational.  I'm sure that it was supposed to be presented in some tragic, melodramatic, "grey area" fashion.  However, by the time I saw that scene, I figured: "yep...he's completely insane.  Merging with a passionate DEMON pretty much murdered what he once had been."

 

So...tragedy in that he became the very symbol of why mages were reviled, and he also became the vileness that he once held in contempt.  Further tragic b/c he was so far gone, he no longer cared, and still felt righteous.  As for the act itself...

 

I'm not sure that the mage rebellion wound't have happened anyway.  Perhaps it's due to the retconning/affirmation in DA3, but they pretty much stated that those sentiments had been boiling over for years.  Maybe the revolution wouldn't have been as violent, but between Anders and Meredith, it was headed in that direction eventually.  It's just a question of how much collateral damage could have been prevented.

 

You've exposed two weaknesses with Anders' character. First, while his fall is ironic, it's not tragic. This is because we never saw Anders fighting for mage freedom before merging with Justice. In Awakening, he was concerned with his personal freedom, but we only see general mage freedom as his cause after merging with Justice, which happens off screen.

 

Secondly, I don't see how Anders' actions spark anything elsewhere, particularly if Hawke sides with the Templars. Sure, Anders' feelings may have been widely shared, but word would get around that the Kirkwall Circle was Annulled after an Abomination destroyed the Chantry. It would look justified and even the circle mages would be appalled, particularly in Ferelden where they saw the result of Abominations in the Circle.

 

 

Actually I do like Anders.

 

Admittedly I liked him better in Awakening but it was nonetheless interesting watching him change after he merged with Justice.

 

But all that being said, no I don't approve of him murdering 100 people at the Chantry. Unfortunately I can't see a better way to accomplish his goals either.

 

Actually you raise the problem with Anders; you don't watch him change. It happens entirely off screen. While you see the end result, you don't see the process. It's the same problem the Star Wars prequels had. We don't see a great, noble man corrupted; we see a petulant, whiny brat get desperate. The changes in the character happen off screen.

 

As far as better ways to accomplish his goals, how about blowing up the Templar Hall? Why strike a blow at the civilians and leave the martial force you will have to fight untouched? All he did was ****** off the Templars.

 

That's what I said I understood his grievance and he was right about that but the actions he took to try to fix them were wrong

 

No, you said his actions were understandable. Even if you agree with his motives, his actions were stupid.

[sjsharp2011]

What I meant was I can understand why he chose to take the actions he did not that I agree with him

[DirkJake]

 

 

That's messed up. You like that he kills innocents in an act that only hurts, not helps, his professed cause? You like that he purposely removed hope for a peaceful solution? He accepts the knife because he thinks it will lift him up a martyr. He isn't remorseful in the least for what he did.

 

I like him blowing up the chantry, not because I think it is a justified action. I like it because it simply makes the story much more interesting. 

 

Of course he was not remorseful for what he did. If he were, I would have killed him. I just don't like when someone does a bad thing but refuses to own up to it. I am glad Anders was not like that.

[Porenferser]

I liked Anders up until...

 

 

Then I rerolled and tried to stop the kiss...it didn't work well. If anything I pity the kind of fall he went through. He should've been cut down when his reins on his sanity loosened. I'm not saying he should've been killed right away, but crazy people can be dangerous. Extremists are even more dangerous. Crazy extremists are the most dangerous of all!

 

Kudos to Bioware for putting up this dilemma, though, because it's rather relevant to RL issues too.

THis scene was so creepy.

[Natureguy85]

What I meant was I can understand why he chose to take the actions he did not that I agree with him

Right, but my point is that his actions don't make any sense because they don't help his stated goals.

[sjsharp2011]

Right, but my point is that his actions don't make any sense because they don't help his stated goals.

Perhaps not but I think his point was that sometimes you have to fight to achieve what you want and by starting one he thought it could be achieved. I think it depends on how you look at it though. Personally that's how I saw that anyway

[Natureguy85]

Perhaps not but I think his point was that sometimes you have to fight to achieve what you want and by starting one he thought it could be achieved. I think it depends on how you look at it though. Personally that's how I saw that anyway

 

You're absolutely right, but he chose the wrong target. He attacked the peacemaker, but didn't do anything to weaken his opposition. If anything, his actions would galvanize the Templars and bring them public support. "An Abomination blew up a Chantry? And now the Mages are fighting? Oh Maker, the Templars are right; mages are dangerous!"

[ComedicSociopathy]

Perhaps not but I think his point was that sometimes you have to fight to achieve what you want and by starting one he thought it could be achieved. I think it depends on how you look at it though. Personally that's how I saw that anyway

 

Wish Anders told the Kirkwall mages before he got the Templars to try and kill them all. Probably would have helped with the whole fighting for freedom thing. 

[Elfyoth]

Wished Anders wasent such a son of ****** Elf-hater sodding bastard racist. Oh and

Spoiler

Terrorist too it seems

[Natureguy85]

Wished Anders wasent such a son of ****** Elf-hater sodding bastard racist. Oh and

Spoiler

Terrorist too it seems

Where is he shown as an elf hater? I don't remember that. I know he doesn't like Fenris, but that's because of the mage issue.

[TheBlackSwordsman]

He was so cool and funny in awakening
then he changed for worst in DA 2,everything nice about him was gone and i couldn't help but to hate him
such a pity

[sjsharp2011]

You're absolutely right, but he chose the wrong target. He attacked the peacemaker, but didn't do anything to weaken his opposition. If anything, his actions would galvanize the Templars and bring them public support. "An Abomination blew up a Chantry? And now the Mages are fighting? Oh Maker, the Templars are right; mages are dangerous!"

I agree he chose the wrong target but in all fairness to him the Chantry weren't taking any actions to try and stop the fire from spreading. The head of the chantry pretty much was denying itself any involvement throughout the whole mess. I don't think it would have spread as far as it did in this instance if they had taken action here. So in my view the chantry are equally as guilty over what happened there as anyone by not getting involved.

[sjsharp2011]

Wish Anders told the Kirkwall mages before he got the Templars to try and kill them all. Probably would have helped with the whole fighting for freedom thing.

In truth he probably should have

[Natureguy85]

I agree he chose the wrong target but in all fairness to him the Chantry weren't taking any actions to try and stop the fire from spreading. The head of the chantry pretty much was denying itself any involvement throughout the whole mess. I don't think it would have spread as far as it did in this instance if they had taken action here. So in my view the chantry are equally as guilty over what happened there as anyone by not getting involved.

 

Guilty, sure, but not equally guilty. At any rate, that's not the point. The point is that he attacks the Chantry but not the Templars. It doesn't help his cause.

[mkess]

I do not like him at all.

 

Not because he whines here an then. I do not like him, because he is a fanatic psychopath, and the perversion of the spirit of Justice.

 

He isnt't even "tragic". Only another abomination running around freely, If I could play my char in DA II as I wanted, I would have killed him on the spot. Even or especially playing as a mage i would have killed him, he is all, that I fear to become, if I am not carefull enough.I have to kill him, to defy to temptation this man is for myself, to give in!

 

Killing him would have spared time. I knew it from the beginning of the story line, that he would do something really, really stupid in the future.

 

He is the reason, why templars are needed. And that is the real tragic about him.

 

--------------------------

 

Some people think, he choose the wrong target. But that is not true. He only choose the wrong method. The ideology from templars comes from the chantry, so it is the right target in the long run. BUT, and this a very big but, you cannot kill an idea with force. It only strengthens the idea. Read "the second sons" triologie. In these books is written, how to kill an idea, a false religion.

 

The chantry religion is extremly hard to kill, because their declared goal is to bring their "chant of light" to every known and unknown corner of the world.

[Bob Walker]

I like Anders in DA2 more than in Awakening, in spite of his flaws. In Awakening, he was a poor man Alistair (and one Alistair is enough).

[Roseweave]

I sympathise with him. 

I think the concept of "extremism" tends to be handled poorly in games because the people writing them haven't lived under extreme persecution. History tends to be pretty revisionist in favour of privileged white people and their causes. 

DA2 let you make your own mind up so it works a bit better, though debatedly that's kind of lazy too. 

I never played Awakenings so it's hard for me to form a full opinion on him.

I wouldn't say he's a 'hardcore libertarian' so much as he is a radical, a revolutionary etc. Isabela is more "libertarian", though not like the people who call themselves libertarians in the west these days, even if she seems as selfish at first(she spends way too much time championing the marginalised - slaves, sex workers, vulnerable women etc.). 

[The Dank Warden]

He's a pathetic son of a nug

[X Equestris]

I sympathise with him. 
I think the concept of "extremism" tends to be handled poorly in games because the people writing them haven't lived under extreme persecution. History tends to be pretty revisionist in favour of privileged white people and their causes. 
DA2 let you make your own mind up so it works a bit better, though debatedly that's kind of lazy too. 
I never played Awakenings so it's hard for me to form a full opinion on him.
I wouldn't say he's a 'hardcore libertarian' so much as he is a radical, a revolutionary etc. Isabela is more "libertarian", though not like the people who call themselves libertarians in the west these days, even if she seems as selfish at first(she spends way too much time championing the marginalised - slaves, sex workers, vulnerable women etc.).

When people say libertarian when talking about Anders, they're usually referring to the fraternity in the Circle. By the end, Anders shares most of the views of the Resolutionist faction of the Libertarian Fraternity.

[berelinde]

Whenever a question begins "Does anyone..." the answer will always be "Yes."